Was it the Jews or Christians who instigated Jesus' death?

StevenMerten · Aug 10, 2013

As I study scriptures, I see that many of the Pharisees and Jewish leaders were following Jesus and baptized by John the Baptist. Well would not someone baptized by John and a follower, though an evil follower of Jesus, make them a Christian?

The 'kingdom of God' is not an Old Testament Concept. The concept of the 'Kingdom of God' is given to us by John the Baptist and Jesus. Jesus talks about those using John's baptism to force their way into the kingdom of God. Jesus tells us that since John started baptizing many evil men are forcing their way into the kingdom of God. You cannot really force your way into the kingdom of God but you can use evil and violence to verbally set yourself apart as those in possession of the kingdom of God, for worldly glorification on earth. This is what the evil Pharisees of Jesus day were doing. I think Jesus even points to those forcing their way into the kingdom of God, through John's baptism, as His killers.

I have asked some Catholic scholars about this situation. While they seem to agree that some of the Pharisees who instigated Christ's death could very likely have been baptized by John, they feel that baptism by John did not make one a Christian. People could only become Christians after the Pentecost of the Holy Spirit upon the Church. How convenient for the Church, was my thought.

The Jewish term "Pharisee" means "the separated". The Pharisees ruthlessly exalted and separated themselves from other men as God's chosen sons in possession of eternal life. It is this lust for worldly exaltation as God's sons in possession of God's kingdom that the Pharisees violently crucified the Son of Man to protect. The 'Kingdom of God' thinking is given to us by John the Baptist and Jesus, not the Jewish religion. If Jesus killers killed Him over wanting to be glorified in this world as in possession of eternal life that John and Jesus spoke of, this, I feel, makes it a Christian issue.

From: Repentance to Service (continued)

NAB MAT 3:8

(John the Baptist speaks)
They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, 'Abraham is our father.' I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones."

NAB LUK 16:16 The Law.

"The law and the prophets were in force until John. From his time on, the good news of God's kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in. It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass.

NAB MAT 11:11

"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer's time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

NAB MAT 21:37

"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, "They will respect my son.' When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!" With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."

NAB MAT 12:14

When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

NAB MAT 5:20

I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God."

NAB MAT 23:12

Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, but whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You shut the doors of the kingdom of God in men's faces, neither entering yourselves nor admitting those who are trying to enter. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You travel over sea and land to make a convert, but once he is converted you make a devil of him twice as wicked as yourselves.

LoAmmi · Aug 10, 2013

Deleted post

WarriorAngel · Aug 10, 2013

It was humanity.

All of us - were part of His crucifixion.
God used ppl - as he had to - to get the job done. But every living person 'instigated' His death - because He died for everyone.

We could get really technical and say Adam and Eve did it.
But - let's just say He gave Himself willingly so we could be 'reunited' to our Father - our Lord and Creator.

Peace.

Lady Bug · Aug 10, 2013

I think the Jews of that time instigated it; Pilate didn't seem to really care to do anything, to me it looks like he was prodded to do it. If Pilate had his way he would have probably left it alone.

WarriorAngel · Aug 10, 2013

It is said in scriptures - Pilates wife had a dream - and that Pilate shouldnt be involved in the death of Jesus...
And according to Tradition - Pilate became a Christian...thru meeting Christ.

willlowbee · Aug 10, 2013

Answer

The Jews did not kill Jesus. The Jewish leaders were instrumental in getting Him executed, but they did not crucify Him.
The Jewish Sanhedrin was able to try Jesus for blasphemy under Mosaic law (Luke 22:71) and succeeded, but could not pass the penalty of execution because they did not have the authority to do so. (John 18:32)
Jesus was then taken before the prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, who although noting that he found Jesus innocent of any charges (Luke 23:4,16)- at least under Roman law; religious law was handled by the relevant religious authority, in this case the Sanhedrin, with any major punishment subject to Roman control - but signed the warrant for fear of causing riots as the crowd had been worked to fever pitch by the Sanhedrin. (Luke 23:24)
He was then crucified by Roman soldiers, in a decidedly Roman way. Had Jesus been executed by the Sanhedrin, He would have been stoned to death.

catholicbybirth · Aug 10, 2013

StevenMerten said:
As I study scriptures, I see that many of the Pharisees and Jewish leaders were following Jesus and baptized by John the Baptist. Well would not someone baptized by John and a follower, though an evil follower of Jesus, make them a Christian?

The 'kingdom of God' is not an Old Testament Concept. The concept of the 'Kingdom of God' is given to us by John the Baptist and Jesus. Jesus talks about those using John's baptism to force their way into the kingdom of God. Jesus tells us that since John started baptizing many evil men are forcing their way into the kingdom of God. You cannot really force your way into the kingdom of God but you can use evil and violence to verbally set yourself apart as those in possession of the kingdom of God, for worldly glorification on earth. This is what the evil Pharisees of Jesus day were doing. I think Jesus even points to those forcing their way into the kingdom of God, through John's baptism, as His killers.

I have asked some Catholic scholars about this situation. While they seem to agree that some of the Pharisees who instigated Christ's death could very likely have been baptized by John, they feel that baptism by John did not make one a Christian. People could only become Christians after the Pentecost of the Holy Spirit upon the Church. How convenient for the Church, was my thought.

The Jewish term "Pharisee" means "the separated". The Pharisees ruthlessly exalted and separated themselves from other men as God's chosen sons in possession of eternal life. It is this lust for worldly exaltation as God's sons in possession of God's kingdom that the Pharisees violently crucified the Son of Man to protect. The 'Kingdom of God' thinking is given to us by John the Baptist and Jesus, not the Jewish religion. If Jesus killers killed Him over wanting to be glorified in this world as in possession of eternal life that John and Jesus spoke of, this, I feel, makes it a Christian issue.

From: Repentance to Service (continued)

NAB MAT 3:8

(John the Baptist speaks)
They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, 'Abraham is our father.' I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones."

NAB LUK 16:16 The Law.

"The law and the prophets were in force until John. From his time on, the good news of God's kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in. It is easier for the heavens and the earth to pass away than for a single stroke of a letter of the law to pass.

NAB MAT 11:11

"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer's time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

NAB MAT 21:37

"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, "They will respect my son.' When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!" With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."

NAB MAT 12:14

When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

NAB MAT 5:20

I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God."

NAB MAT 23:12

Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, but whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You shut the doors of the kingdom of God in men's faces, neither entering yourselves nor admitting those who are trying to enter. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You travel over sea and land to make a convert, but once he is converted you make a devil of him twice as wicked as yourselves.

Don't let the particulars distract you from the point of Jesus life, death, and resurrection.

Jesus was not the Word Incarnate just to allow us to hate each other and point fingers at the sins of others.

Janice

Tallguy88 · Aug 11, 2013

catholicbybirth said:
Don't let the particulars distract you from the point of Jesus life, death, and resurrection.

Jesus was not the Word Incarnate just to allow us to hate each other and point fingers at the sins of others.

Janice

Absolutely agree!

InnerPhyre · Aug 11, 2013

The Jews who arranged for the death of our Lord are long long dead and have little to do with any Jews currently living.

JimR-OCDS · Aug 11, 2013

The first Christians were Jews.

All the Apostles were Jewish, and of course Mary and Joseph were Jews.

The Temple leaders arrested Jesus and tried him for blasphemy. They took him to Pilate and pressured him into crucifying Jesus.

The followers of Jesus during his life and after the resurrection, were Jewish and they were often martyred as St. Stephen was.

So, when we identify who it is who crucified Jesus, lets not paint the entire race of Jews.

Jim

StevenMerten · Aug 12, 2013

willlowbee said:
Answer

The Jews did not kill Jesus. The Jewish leaders were instrumental in getting Him executed, but they did not crucify Him.
The Jewish Sanhedrin was able to try Jesus for blasphemy under Mosaic law (Luke 22:71) and succeeded, but could not pass the penalty of execution because they did not have the authority to do so. (John 18:32)
Jesus was then taken before the prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, who although noting that he found Jesus innocent of any charges (Luke 23:4,16)- at least under Roman law; religious law was handled by the relevant religious authority, in this case the Sanhedrin, with any major punishment subject to Roman control - but signed the warrant for fear of causing riots as the crowd had been worked to fever pitch by the Sanhedrin. (Luke 23:24)
He was then crucified by Roman soldiers, in a decidedly Roman way. Had Jesus been executed by the Sanhedrin, He would have been stoned to death.

Hello willobee,

Personally I do not see wiki as the expert of my religion.

Yes it was the Roman occupiers, holding secular authority to put to death whom ever they chose to, who pulled the trigger. What I see in scriptures is the Pharisees manipulating the Roman leaders to murder Jesus. They did so by bringing the Jewish people to the point of a riot. The reason the Roman's murdered Jesus was to avoid a riot. The riot was instigated by the Pharisees. The Pharisees instigated the near riot, which lead to Jesus death, because they hated Jesus for not glorifying them as those in possession of the 'Kingdom of God' that Jesus and John the Baptist preached on earth.

Conclusion, the Roman's technically killed Jesus, but it was the Pharisees who manipulated the Roman's hand to do so. It was the Pharisees evil wickedness in wanting to be glorified on earth as those in possession of eternal life, over other people like the prostitutes and tax collectors, that they did so. The Pharisees ran to be baptized as a Christian by John in order to be glorified on earth as a Christian in possession of eternal life over other unsaved people. When Jesus told them that they were not the ones to inherit eternal life, but those they exalted themselves over were, they manipulated Jesus' death by manipulating the Romans to kill Him. Does this make sense to you?

WarriorAngel · Aug 12, 2013

Did you happen to notice - it was Jews and gentiles?
Hmmmm.

Lovely Jar · Aug 12, 2013

willlowbee said:
Answer

The Jews did not kill Jesus. The Jewish leaders were instrumental in getting Him executed, but they did not crucify Him.
The Jewish Sanhedrin was able to try Jesus for blasphemy under Mosaic law (Luke 22:71) and succeeded, but could not pass the penalty of execution because they did not have the authority to do so. (John 18:32)
Jesus was then taken before the prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, who although noting that he found Jesus innocent of any charges (Luke 23:4,16)- at least under Roman law; religious law was handled by the relevant religious authority, in this case the Sanhedrin, with any major punishment subject to Roman control - but signed the warrant for fear of causing riots as the crowd had been worked to fever pitch by the Sanhedrin. (Luke 23:24)
He was then crucified by Roman soldiers, in a decidedly Roman way. Had Jesus been executed by the Sanhedrin, He would have been stoned to death.

A nice succinct collection of scriptures that collectively answer the OP question. Well done.

StevenMerten · Aug 12, 2013

JimR-OCDS said:
The first Christians were Jews.

All the Apostles were Jewish, and of course Mary and Joseph were Jews.

The Temple leaders arrested Jesus and tried him for blasphemy. They took him to Pilate and pressured him into crucifying Jesus.

The followers of Jesus during his life and after the resurrection, were Jewish and they were often martyred as St. Stephen was.

So, when we identify who it is who crucified Jesus, lets not paint the entire race of Jews.

Jim

Hello Jim,
When a Jew turns to follow Jesus and are baptized, are they not now converts into Christianity? Why do you think Christ's Apostles did not convert to be baptized and now follow Jesus? I would consider the baptized 12 Apostles who followed Jesus during His life as Christians.

LoAmmi · Aug 12, 2013

I deleted it previously, you've dug in deeper.

I don't think you should be putting "The Pharisees". The majority of the Pharisee movement wouldn't have been involved in the slightest with what went on in Jerusalem. It's like saying "the Christians did (xyz)" when what is meant is a small group of Christians did something.

I also think you have the theology of the Pharisee movement very wrong.

benedictaoo · Aug 12, 2013

The Jews, the Jews, the Jews... where shall we begin? Are they the cause? In a way. They had the gig and didn't want it, so. Yeah, they are in so much as they could have received Jesus and we could have done this atonement thing by way of conversion but that didn't happen. Instead they rejected Him and He became the cornerstone and by His blood that was shed, we are healed and as far as the Jews go, well, He'll have mercy on whom He will and harden whom He will. They remain a hard hearted stiff neck people with the exception of those who convert.

Oh, and sorry if this offens anyone. I'm sure it does but it is what it is.

WarriorAngel · Aug 12, 2013

As i was taught - and it remains taught - it was no one's fault individually but the world's collective fault thru our fall.

And because it was meant to be [propehtically speaking] He came to do this for us - so He willingly did so.

What individuals did or didnt do - is on them. On the whole - all of humanity was part of His crucifixion - because He died for all.

Just not getting where this idea it was any one groups fault - its new.
It was the Jews who were material tools in this - but for the world it was necessary.

StevenMerten · Aug 12, 2013

LoAmmi said:
I deleted it previously, you've dug in deeper.

I don't think you should be putting "The Pharisees". The majority of the Pharisee movement wouldn't have been involved in the slightest with what went on in Jerusalem. It's like saying "the Christians did (xyz)" when what is meant is a small group of Christians did something.

I also think you have the theology of the Pharisee movement very wrong.

\

Hello LoAmmi,

I know you are Jewish. I am not taking aim at the Jewish religion. Actually, I feel I am defending the Jewish religion here. Every Easter, it is the Jews who are represented in Christianity as those screaming "Crucify Him, Crucify Him". What I am saying is that if those who instigated Jesus death, identified in the words of Jesus as 'Pharisees', were baptized followers of Jesus, then they would be Christians, not Jews? When we baptize people at our parish we no longer call the baptized convert a 'Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Budist ect.', we call them Catholics. In accepting Baptism a convert is no longer thought of as a Muslim, Jew or Atheist, they are now Christians.

It is Jesus who goes into battle with people who are identified primarily as 'Pharisees'. In Christ's battle with the 'Pharissees' it is not a religious group of Jews that He is battleing. It is a group of people who are going to kill Him for not separating them out as baptized followers of John the Baptist, as I see it Christians, in possession of eternal life over the repentant tax collectors and prostitutes, who are following Jesus.

What I am saying is that the term 'Phrasee' used by Jesus to identify His murderers, is not really addressing your Jewish religious group of people but a group of, what I see as Christians, who hated and murdered Jesus over their lust to abuse John's Baptism to force their way into the Kingdom of God which is eternal life. The 'Pharisees' addressed by Jesus were Baptized by John and trying to use their baptism from John, into Christianity, to exalt and glorify themselves as those in possession of eternal life over other baptized followers of Jesus and John.

NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet

Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those invited: "Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast."' Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.' The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.' Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.

NAB REV 19:6

Then I heard something like the sound of a great multitude or the sound of rushing water or mighty peals of thunder, as they said: "Alleluia! The Lord has established his reign, (our) God, the almighty. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.)

NAB MAT 21:43

Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit. ( The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)" When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him, they feared the crowds, for they regarded him as a prophet.

NAB2 LUK 18:9 The Pharisee and the tax collector.

He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank [eucharisteo] you that I am not like the rest of humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.' But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.' I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

(Eucharisteo; with the dative it always stands where there is implied a kindness done, a favor, a charis, a grace for an undeserved gift received where it appears as thanks for any good experience.

NAB MAT 23:23

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others. Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel! "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every kind of filth. Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets' blood.' Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

NAB MAT 5:20

I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God."

NAB MAT 23:12

Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, but whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You shut the doors of the kingdom of God in men's faces, neither entering yourselves nor admitting those who are trying to enter. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You travel over sea and land to make a convert, but once he is converted you make a devil of him twice as wicked as yourselves.

willlowbee · Aug 12, 2013

WarriorAngel said:
As i was taught - and it remains taught - it was no one's fault individually but the world's collective fault thru our fall.

And because it was meant to be [propehtically speaking] He came to do this for us - so He willingly did so.

What individuals did or didnt do - is on them. On the whole - all of humanity was part of His crucifixion - because He died for all.

Just not getting where this idea it was any one groups fault - its new.
It was the Jews who were material tools in this - but for the world it was necessary.

The idea of Jews being at fault is not new. In fact it is often what raises conflict against the Jews as a whole today. They killed Christ. That is not new. Maybe to you it is, but overall it is not.

If it becomes a matter of source outside the Jews responsibility then it would be God's responsibility.
Sovereign omniscient creator came to earth in the flesh to be tortured and die so as to change the rule of damnation unto that of salvation that he created himself. Because he first could not, did not, forgive in the beginning the first mistake two humans made in the garden wherein he planted the tree with the foreknowledge of their demise from innocence.
So, after dying and taking the sins of the world upon himself it was then that he decided he'd forgive the multitude instead. Once they came and asked to be forgiven for his mistake.

LoAmmi · Aug 12, 2013

StevenMerten said:
\

Hello LoAmmi,

I know you are Jewish. I am not taking aim at the Jewish religion. Actually, I feel I am defending the Jewish religion here. Every Easter, it is the Jews who are represented in Christianity as those screaming "Crucify Him, Crucify Him". What I am saying is that if those who instigated Jesus death, identified in the words of Jesus as 'Pharisees', were baptized followers of Jesus, then they would be Christians, not Jews? When we baptize people at our parish we no longer call the baptized convert a 'Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Budist ect.', we call them Catholics. In accepting Baptism a convert is no longer thought of as a Muslim, Jew or Atheist, they are now Christians.

It is Jesus who goes into battle with people who are identified primarily as 'Pharisees'. In Christ's battle with the 'Pharissees' it is not a religious group of Jews that He is battleing. It is a group of people who are going to kill Him for not separating them out as baptized followers of John the Baptist, as I see it Christians, in possession of eternal life over the repentant tax collectors and prostitutes, who are following Jesus.

What I am saying is that the term 'Phrasee' used by Jesus to identify His murderers, is not really addressing your Jewish religious group of people but a group of, what I see as Christians, who hated and murdered Jesus over their lust to abuse John's Baptism to force their way into the Kingdom of God which is eternal life. The 'Pharisees' addressed by Jesus were Baptized by John and trying to use their baptism from John, into Christianity, to exalt and glorify themselves as those in possession of eternal life over other baptized followers of Jesus and John.

I see. Well, thank you for clarifying. The Pharisee movement is the one that became modern Judaism, so it's really hard when people say "The Pharisees" were evil, bad, whatever, without clarifying it was a smaller group of people they are talking about. Whether it is something they really did or not isn't something to discuss here, of course, but I always try to let people know to be careful with the terminology. Loose terminology is what led Jews to have to hide inside their homes on Good Friday for fear of being beaten by lay people who were riled up by the tale of the Crucifixion in church.

Was it the Jews or Christians who instigated Jesus' death?

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