A new video by Aron-Ra

Strathos said:

You know, wisdom in the Bible is generally considered a good thing.

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For AV, wisdom only comes from one source: AV and his interpretations of the Bible.

EternalDragon said:

What do we need it to get to? 500,000? A million?

How about having more robust individuals with many less mutations built up and a cleaner genetic makeup than we have today?

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Making stuff up is easy. Science is hard.

CabVet said:

We don't need to get to anything since we already have data showing us what happened. The human population is so genetically diverse today that it is physically impossible for it to have gone through two bottlenecks (Adam and Noah) in the past 6,000 years. Simple as that. The genetic diversity that we have today can only be the result of a population size that remained stable in the dozens of thousands to hundreds of thousands for at least half a million years.



That actually goes against your argument. To generate the high genetic diversity that our population has today, you would need individuals with more mutations and a "dirtier" genetic makeup that everybody else alive today. It would help a lot if you read a few paragraphs about genetics before you proposed these "ideas".

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You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. I mean, I am too of course.

If God created Adam and Eve to populate the Earth from just two people, I am sure they were perfectly able to. Noah was not too far from Adam.

You can't base your whole argument on things we find in genetics today. Or man's inference of that evidence. We've only just starting unlocking DNA, have we not?

EternalDragon said:

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. I mean, I am too of course.

If God created Adam and Eve to populate the Earth from just two people, I am sure they were perfectly able to. Noah was not too far from Adam.

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God creating Adam and Eve is an assumption. DNA being more similar between people that are closely related and less similar between those that are not is not an assumption, it is an observation. You draw your conclusions based on your assumption (that God created Adam and Eve), I draw mine based on observation. That is the big difference between our arguments.

EternalDragon said:

You can't base your whole argument on things we find in genetics today. Or man's inference of that evidence. We've only just starting unlocking DNA, have we not?

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No, actually, we know a lot. We can debate it when you learn a tad bit more about it.

EternalDragon said:

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. I mean, I am too of course.

If God created Adam and Eve to populate the Earth from just two people, I am sure they were perfectly able to. Noah was not too far from Adam.

You can't base your whole argument on things we find in genetics today. Or man's inference of that evidence. We've only just starting unlocking DNA, have we not?

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I think assuming the first male and female having 2 male children, at least 130 years later had another male son, and then 800 years later the next female was born... kinda throws out the whole "perfectly able" thing.

You can't base your whole argument on things we find in genetics today. Or man's inference of that evidence.

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Why? Why not? There's not single, solitary reason to think that genetics for humans worked any different today than they ever have. None. If you can think of one, please present it, show how you got it, then go about the scientific method. Otherwise, this is a completely vacuous statement.

What do we need it to get to? 500,000? A million?

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Oh, and the answer is 27 million. That's the estimate for how many people were alive at that time.

EternalDragon said:

So we all look very similar and there is only one color shade of a white person and one color shade of a black person and so on? Is that what you are saying?

I though humans had a great number of varying characteristics.

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Nope. I am saying that this is what we should look like if the Noah's ark story really happened. The fact that we do not, is something you need to explain if your story is to hold water.

Here are the facts:
Humans have only two alleles for each gene.
For many genes, the human species as a whole has thousands of alleles.

If your story is true, you had at one point a population bottleneck of 8 humans. These 8 humans would have had at max 16 alleles.

Somehow, you have to get from those 16 alleles to the thousands we have now. That is what you have to explain.

EternalDragon said:

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. I mean, I am too of course.

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None of the things he said were assumptions. Methinks you need to look up that word in the dictionary.

If God created Adam and Eve to populate the Earth from just two people, I am sure they were perfectly able to. Noah was not too far from Adam.

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Ah yes, you cannot explain the facts, so you make stuff up.

You can't base your whole argument on things we find in genetics today. Or man's inference of that evidence. We've only just starting unlocking DNA, have we not?

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No, we have not. We know quite a bit about DNA, how it works, and what it can and cannot do. Perhaps you should first study this? You know, before, making up stuff? Why don't you?

Tomk80 said:

Nope. I am saying that this is what we should look like if the Noah's ark story really happened. The fact that we do not, is something you need to explain if your story is to hold water.

Here are the facts:
Humans have only two alleles for each gene.
For many genes, the human species as a whole has thousands of alleles.

If your story is true, you had at one point a population bottleneck of 8 humans. These 8 humans would have had at max 16 alleles.

Somehow, you have to get from those 16 alleles to the thousands we have now. That is what you have to explain.

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It is even tighter than that as three of those people were offspring of Noah and his wife. So for most genes five of them shared at max the same four alleles.

Tomk80 said:

Here are the facts:
Humans have only two alleles for each gene.
For many genes, the human species as a whole has thousands of alleles.

If your story is true, you had at one point a population bottleneck of 8 humans. These 8 humans would have had at max 16 alleles.

Somehow, you have to get from those 16 alleles to the thousands we have now. That is what you have to explain.

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I don't understand this post.

Are you saying that we currently only have "thousands" of humans?

If each human has two alleles, and there are 7 billion humans; wouldn't the 'human species as a whole' have 14 billion alleles; not 'thousands of alleles' as you said?

If 'these 8 humans' have a maximum of 16 alleles, then how many maximum alleles would 7 billion humans have?

gluadys said:

It is even tighter than that as three of those people were offspring of Noah and his wife. So for most genes five of them shared at max the same four alleles.

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I'm totally lost here.

Cabvet said:

EternalDragon said:

If God created Adam and Eve to populate the Earth from just two people, I am sure they were perfectly able to.

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God creating Adam and Eve is an assumption. DNA being more similar between people that are closely related and less similar between those that are not is not an assumption, it is an observation. You draw your conclusions based on your assumption (that God created Adam and Eve), I draw mine based on observation. That is the big difference between our arguments.

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Hold the phone, put away those studies, put away evidence, ETERNAL DRAGON IS SURE! That settles it!

Of course Cabvet is right: ED is doing mental gymnastics to skirt around evidence.

Like the time a few pages ago when he was totally cool with talking about Otzi the ice man (~3300BC) before he realized that 3300 BC predates his timeline for the flood, then UH OH, it must be the science that is wrong.

AV1611VET said:

I don't understand this post.

Are you saying that we currently only have "thousands" of humans?

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Euh, no?

If each human has two alleles, and there are 7 billion humans; wouldn't the 'human species as a whole' have 14 billion alleles; not 'thousands of alleles' as you said?

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Nope, because many humans have the same alleles.

Let's make up a simple example for a moment, and pretend that eye-color is depended on one gene (in reality it is not, but this is for illustration purposes). So you have one gene for eye-color. For that gene, you have two varieties (or alleles). Each variety codes for "blue", "black", "brown" or "grey" eyes (again, this is too simple, but for illustration purposes). So you might have one allele coding for blue eyes, and another coding for black eyes. Eey might have two alleles coding for blue eyes. With me so far?

Now, each allele of a gene is situated on a chromosome. You have two sets of chromosomes, one from your mother, one from your father. So far you to have a "blue" allele and a "black" allele, you needed to get one of these from your mother, and one from your father. So either your mother had one or two "blue" alleles, and your father had one or two "black" alleles, or vice versa. In my case, both my mother and father had to have at least one "blue allele". With me so far.

So, more than one person can have a version of the same allele. Suppose my mother and father both had one "blue allele", but my mother also had a "brown" allele and my father a "gray" allele. All possible combinations from my mother and father are: "blue - blue", "blue - gray", "blue - brown" and "gray brown". But it might happen by chance, that both all my sisters and brothers got the "blue-blue" set. But suppose I had 10 brothers and sisters, at maximum we could have 4 different sets of alleles between us.

Which leads to the answer of your question below:

If 'these 8 humans' have a maximum of 16 alleles, then how many maximum alleles would 7 billion humans have?

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Without evolution, 16.

Tomk80 said:

Euh, no?


Nope, because many humans have the same alleles.

Let's make up a simple example for a moment, and pretend that eye-color is depended on one gene (in reality it is not, but this is for illustration purposes). So you have one gene for eye-color. For that gene, you have two varieties (or alleles). Each variety codes for "blue", "black", "brown" or "grey" eyes (again, this is too simple, but for illustration purposes). So you might have one allele coding for blue eyes, and another coding for black eyes. Eey might have two alleles coding for blue eyes. With me so far?

Now, each allele of a gene is situated on a chromosome. You have two sets of chromosomes, one from your mother, one from your father. So far you to have a "blue" allele and a "black" allele, you needed to get one of these from your mother, and one from your father. So either your mother had one or two "blue" alleles, and your father had one or two "black" alleles, or vice versa. In my case, both my mother and father had to have at least one "blue allele". With me so far.

So, more than one person can have a version of the same allele. Suppose my mother and father both had one "blue allele", but my mother also had a "brown" allele and my father a "gray" allele. All possible combinations from my mother and father are: "blue - blue", "blue - gray", "blue - brown" and "gray brown". But it might happen by chance, that both all my sisters and brothers got the "blue-blue" set. But suppose I had 10 brothers and sisters, at maximum we could have 4 different sets of alleles between us.

Which leads to the answer of your question below:

Without evolution, 16.

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Again, excuse my ignorance, but for the record, I still don't understand.

(And I'm not playing games, either. I truly don't understand.)

You said a minute ago that Noah and his family -- 8 people -- had a maximum of 16 alleles.

But now it looks like you're saying that alleles code for eye color and, by extension, hair color, skin color and whatever else.

That's more than 2 alleles per person, isn't it?

A person who has green eyes has 2 alleles, now they have green eyes and brown hair, shouldn't that be 4 alleles now?

AV1611VET said:

Again, excuse my ignorance, but for the record, I still don't understand.

(And I'm not playing games, either. I truly don't understand.)

You said a minute ago that Noah and his family -- 8 people -- had a maximum of 16 alleles.

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Yup, two per person.

But now it looks like you're saying that alleles code for eye color and, by extension, hair color, skin color and whatever else.

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Each gene codes for different things. You have different genes for hair color, eye color, etc... Of each gene, you have two alleles.

That's more than 2 alleles per person, isn't it?

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So a lot of genes in your body, coding for trait that your body has. Of each gene, you have two alleles.

A person who has green eyes has 2 alleles, now they have green eyes and brown hair, shouldn't that be 4 alleles now?

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No, because you have a different gene that codes for eyes and one that codes for hair.

So of the allele of hair color you might have an allele for blond hair and an allele brown hair, which would give you brown hair.
And of the allele for eye color you would have an allele coding for blue eyes and an allele coding for green eyes, giving you green eyes.

Now, the real picture is more complicated. The way alleles combine to certain traits can be either by one allele having precedence over the other (dominant or recessive), or by alleles combining in a way to give a mixture. Next to this, many traits are determined by multiple genes, complicating things even further. For example, there are 2 genes that are known to be mainly responsible for eye color, but up to 16 genes may actually have an influence. Of each of these 16 genes, you will have 2 alleles. (So, 16 genes in your body determining eye color to a bigger or lesser extent, with you having 2 alleles per gene).

But the basic remains the same: of each gene each human has a maximum of 2 variations, or alleles. Of these 2 alleles, you will pass on 1 to your offspring, and your partner will pas on 1 to your offspring. So your offspring will again have 2 alleles, 1 from you and 1 from your partner.

So if you have 8 humans to start with, you will have at max 16 alleles for each gene in the population. Without evolution, if they have kids, these kids will always have combinations of these 16 alleles of each gene, no matter how many people there will eventually be in the population.

Does that clear things up for you?

A more comprehensive explanation is of course given by wikipedia: Allele - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That may be clearer, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Tomk80 said:

Each gene codes for different things.

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Now wer're talking genes?

Which is it? genes or alleles?

Or are these two alleles responsible for manipulating all the genes?

AV1611VET said:

Now wer're talking genes?

Which is it? genes or alleles?

Or are these two alleles responsible for manipulating all the genes?

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You have two variants of each gene. Each variant is called an allele.

Tomk80 said:

You have two variants of each gene. Each variant is called an allele.

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Okay ... thank you.