free will

Aeroflotte · Jul 13, 2013

ThouArtThat said:
An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

What are your thoughts on this?

I think that questions such as these boil down to an unsolvable situation composed of two opposing points.

Both points are neither wrong nor right. It depends upon the person's experiences, because the reason for each person's allegiance to either point is not rational, but irrational. Like the argument of the existence of God, some people will cling hard to theism and others will cling hard to atheism. It depends not upon a decision to believe or disbelieve in God, it depends upon the action of experiencing some phenomenon (or not experiencing it).

The irrational isn't some evil thing that men like to bestow upon an angry woman, it's an essential part of the human mind. It's where our feelings lie. Men tend to repress their feelings in my culture, and women are to express them more freely. When feelings are repressed then some part of the person retreats into rationality, sitting back and analyzing from afar, away from the emotional pain that exists in the realm of the irrational.

The answer to the question of free will is not an answer, neither is it an answer. The question is really a product of not being in contact with the irrational. Think of two polarized spheres orbiting a much larger sphere. One of the smaller spheres is "Yes, free will exists" and the other is "No, free will doesn't exist" and both smaller spheres' existence is contingent upon the larger sphere. If the smaller spheres are bypassed and connection with the larger sphere occurs, then the two smaller spheres vanish.

Like the Abraham Principle, look at the moon and ask where it came from. What forces created the moon? What forces created the forces that created the forces that created the moon? Etc. There is always another force beyond. The moon isn't the answer, the force that created it isn't the end, and the forces superior to the forces aren't the end. It's another infinite recursion.

The recursion can be solved by asserting the existence of God as a programmer fixing the infinite recursion in the program's code within a text editor. Or, the problem can also be solved by looking at the being asking the questions in the first place. Forget the question of free will; why are you asking this question in the first place?

Edit: I'm on a roll with these crypto-posts. +1 self-satisfaction added to Aeroflotte.

Upisoft · Jul 13, 2013

BelievingIsObeying said:
I don't think the mind does thoughts, the mind is thoughts.

If the mind is thoughts what does change them.

daniel777 · Jul 14, 2013

An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

What are your thoughts on this?

Decisions are answers to answerable questions with at least two potential options.

"should I decide to decide?" is not an answerable question with at least two potential options.
Should I decide to decide? YES... ok.
Should I decide to decide? NO.... oops I just decided.

In other words, the "decision to decide" is not a decision.

Upisoft · Jul 14, 2013

daniel777 said:
In other words, the "decision to decide" is not a decision.

So, in that case you always have to decide and it is impossible that you neglect something.

daniel777 · Jul 14, 2013

Upisoft said:
So, in that case you always have to decide and it is impossible that you neglect something.

Yes, unless someone forgets the question, but not in any problematic sense that I see.

If I thought I could decide to decide to decide to decide ad infintum... All I'd really be doing is making a lot of noise. The original question is still there, and all this noise is "really" based its realization, not the other way around.

If I decide to decide to decide not to decide to decide to decide, the buck stops at the not. Actually, I've already answered the original question, but I've still managed to make a lot of meaningless noise.

For the record, I don't have an issue with questions sometimes being involuntary, and I think decisions are answers to questions.

Ken-1122 · Jul 15, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
What do you mean by "author"?

We know that the genocide of Treblinka and Auschwitz was carried out by the Nazi Regime.

What is the Nazi Regime?

Was it not a group of people with a certain perception of the Jewish race?

This group of people was composed of individual persons who each gave their consent in killing people because they were a certain race.

This means that each person who supported, either directly, or indirectly the Nazi Regime's machinations were the authors of this horrific work.

Unless one would accept the excuse from them that: "God made me do it."

But clearly God does not condone killing people merely because they are a certain race. So even if this was their excuse, it fails miserably.

You can't say God is the aurthor of everything that happens, then turn around and say that God is not responsible of the evil things that happens. Sorry; you can't have it both ways.

Ken

brightlights · Jul 21, 2013

Lord Emsworth said:
And yet, it is quite popular in Christian theism.

Not among the doctors of the church. Judge the doctrine by its professors.

Charlemagne4 · Jul 21, 2013

I have been demon possessed. I know what that feels like. It feels different from having free will. You feel like your arms and hands move. There is a seperate cause. I used to think that people didn't have free will. But they do, libertarian, it is not compatibilist. Your body can feel the seperate cause when you don't have control of yourself.

The feeling of having a free will is powerful evidence for having a free will.

Lord Emsworth · Jul 22, 2013

brightlights said:
Not among the doctors of the church. Judge the doctrine by its professors.

Not sure what that is supposed to mean ... But, is that what you do?

christ disciple · Jul 22, 2013

ThouArtThat said:
An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

What are your thoughts on this?

True, but since there is no such thing as "free will" this cannot be. For everyone's will is bound to their nature and thus is influenced by internal and external biases.

Decisions are based upon comparisons made after one has acquired information. The question is though, How can one make any choice if there are no absolutes?

The inability to make a choice further complicates the matter because there is no reference point with which to begin, is there?

That is, if there are no absolutes.

"Free Will" is therefore bound by absolutes, is it not?

Or would we not end up with your conclusion?

So, is "Free Will" Free?

What/Who then is influencing our wills?

brightlights · Jul 22, 2013

Lord Emsworth said:
Not sure what that is supposed to mean ... But, is that what you do?

Yes. Judge the teachings by those who understand it and represent it best.

Lord Emsworth · Jul 22, 2013

brightlights said:
Yes. Judge the teachings by those who understand it and represent it best.

Ah, now I understand. I thought you meant something else by doctors and professors. Still, I would maintain that libertarian free will is popular amongst those, too.

Davian · Jul 22, 2013

Charlemagne4 said:
I have been demon possessed. I know what that feels like. It feels different from having free will. You feel like your arms and hands move. There is a seperate cause. I used to think that people didn't have free will. But they do, libertarian, it is not compatibilist. Your body can feel the seperate cause when you don't have control of yourself.

The feeling of having a free will is powerful evidence for having a free will.

I would think that, if free will is an illusion, that illusion would include the feeling of having a free will. So, your "feeling" is *not* evidence that you actually have "free will" in this context.

bricklayer · Jul 31, 2013

ThouArtThat said:
An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

Even a character in a book makes choices; however, the author determines what they will be.

We make choices. We make exactly those choices prescribed.

We are a complex of intellectual, emotional, willful and biological processes.
A process is a prescribed sequence of changes. (key-word PRESCRIBED, pre-written)

We make choices, but we do not choose from undetermined possibilities.
We choose exactly what our author and creator has determined, prescribed and created.

quatona · Jul 31, 2013

bricklayer said:
Even a character in a book makes choices;

Really? In which case I don´t even know what you mean by "making a choice".

bricklayer · Aug 1, 2013

quatona said:
Really? In which case I don´t even know what you mean by "making a choice".

We are sometimes, as readers, privy to the intellectual, emotional and willful processes that lead up to a well-written character's choices.

Creatures are characters with being. I have been exactly this prescribed character since "before the foundation of the world"; I became a creature in 1962.

We make choices, but we do not choose from undetermined possibilities.

We are lead to believe that our choices are as yet undetermined because that's what we think God does, an we want to believe that God is fair. God is not fair, and there is nothing "yet to be determined" about God's intellect, emotions or will. What's more, there is nothing yet to be determined about God's creation.

God's creation is a process; it is a prescribed sequence of changes.
We are a complex of intellectual, emotional, willful and biological processes; we are defined by our changes.

quatona · Aug 1, 2013

bricklayer said:
We are sometimes, as readers, privy to the intellectual, emotional and willful processes that lead up to a well-written character's choices.

Creatures are characters with being. I have been exactly this prescribed character since "before the foundation of the world"; I became a creature in 1962.

We make choices, but we do not choose from undetermined possibilities.

We are lead to believe that our choices are as yet undetermined because that's what we think God does, an we want to believe that God is fair. God is not fair, and there is nothing "yet to be determined" about God's intellect, emotions or will. What's more, there is nothing yet to be determined about God's creation.

God's creation is a process; it is a prescribed sequence of changes.
We are a complex of intellectual, emotional, willful and biological processes; we are defined by our changes.

Actually, I wasn´t asking about your worldview but my question was prompted by your idea that fictional characters (in books) make choices.

bbyrd009 · Aug 1, 2013

quatona said:
Really? In which case I don´t even know what you mean by "making a choice".

This is where free will can really blossom, and becomes evident, in 'making a choice.' To accomplish something for the greater good. It is then that the answer to your (apparent) question...materializes : )

bbyrd009 · Aug 1, 2013

brightlights said:
Yes. Judge the teachings by those who understand it and represent it best.

Or by their fruit, I'm reading.

Davian · Aug 1, 2013

quatona said:
Actually, I wasn´t asking about your worldview but my question was prompted by your idea that fictional characters (in books) make choices.

Perhaps bricklayer believes that he is, in his worldview, essentially a character in a book, and that he has some sort of "free will". I can't get my head around it, but it seems that he is attempting to resolve his interpretation of "free will" and his god's "omniscience". Tricky, like carrying an octopus in a string bag and not having its arms dangling out.

free will

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"God"? What do you mean??

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