Our favorite subject... law vs grace

visionary · Jun 27, 2013

Not wanting to get into the arguments that go on "out there"... but do want to provide some logic to this verse..

John 1:17, "For the law was given through Moses. Grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."

This verse has all-too-often been twisted to suggest that "the law" and "grace" were opposed to one another. I would like to suggest an alternate interpretation here.

"The law," given through Moses, contained a detailed account of the punishment that would befall the nation of Israel for their disobedience to forsaking the commandments of God. (Also Deuteronomy 28-30) It also contains a promise of redemption for the nation of Israel to return to obedience to keeping God's commandments. (Also Deuteronomy 28-30) One of those punishments was that they would be banished from the land given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and scattered to every nation of the world.

Yeshua came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. (Matthew 15:24) He came to for that same group to which "the law" had been given, and had been cast away for their disobedience. Hence, when it is said that Yeshua brought grace, it is not to say that He came to spite the law, or in opposition to the law- rather, he came because OF the law. He came to enact the grace clause that had been originally provided in the law from the very beginning.

In other words:

Moses said, "You break the rules, this is the punishment, and this is how you'll come back." Moses set the stage for Jesus to arrive and say, "It's time to come back."

Moses gave the legislation, Jesus enacted it. It's not about grace versus the law, or grace trumping the law; far from it. The law enabled grace, and grace can only exist because of the law. Nothing about grace negates the law; rather, grace returns us to the law."

visionary · Jun 27, 2013

It really is too bad that the Law has been presented too many times as the venue of punishment. The law setting up things for Yeshua's arrival by religious groups of that day using it as a means to condemn people and sadly reflected in the gospels. The law ... obedience to it brings life and disobedience to it brings death. The law and the prophets clearly indicate that each person is individually responsible for themselves and everyone is very capable of keeping the law (Ezek 18)

Deut 30:11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. 15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The passage (Deut 30:1-10) opens with words: “And it shall be that all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse…” The curse that Moses is referring to is the curse that God warned would befall Israel should they fail to obey His voice. How then can one make the claim that on account of Israel’s failure to obey God, the Scriptural prophecy will never be fulfilled? The Scriptural prophecy clearly predicts Israel’s failure to obey and tells how, after Israel’s failure, Israel will ultimately return to God. It is clear that God took Israel’s failures into consideration when He encouraged Israel with these words, and God’s promises are irrevocable.

This passage in Deut. clearly teaches that genuine repentance not only by individuals but by the entire nation is the precursor of the Messianic age, this passage teaches that repentance is efficacious while Israel is still in exile, and that the Law of Moses, as Moses taught it, is going to be observed in the Messianic era.

dodari · Jun 27, 2013

Thanks for putting this topic up, Viz.

Finally, after more than 2-1/2 years, a subject worthy of this old Jew's interest.

Sincerely hope it is developed and discussed sanely.

Lulav · Jun 27, 2013

The law ... obedience to it brings life and disobedience to it brings death.

And most misunderstand what this means

Life and death.

Life means to walk with G-d
Death means to be separated from Him.

annier · Jun 27, 2013

visionary said:
It really is too bad that the Law has been presented too many times as the venue of punishment. The law setting up things for Yeshua's arrival by religious groups of that day using it as a means to condemn people and sadly reflected in the gospels. The law ... obedience to it brings life and disobedience to it brings death. The law and the prophets clearly indicate that each person is individually responsible for themselves and everyone is very capable of keeping the law (Ezek 18)

The passage (Deut 30:1-10) opens with words: “And it shall be that all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse…” The curse that Moses is referring to is the curse that God warned would befall Israel should they fail to obey His voice. How then can one make the claim that on account of Israel’s failure to obey God, the Scriptural prophecy will never be fulfilled? The Scriptural prophecy clearly predicts Israel’s failure to obey and tells how, after Israel’s failure, Israel will ultimately return to God. It is clear that God took Israel’s failures into consideration when He encouraged Israel with these words, and God’s promises are irrevocable.

This passage in Deut. clearly teaches that genuine repentance not only by individuals but by the entire nation is the precursor of the Messianic age, this passage teaches that repentance is efficacious while Israel is still in exile, and that the Law of Moses, as Moses taught it, is going to be observed in the Messianic era.

In these scriptures, do you see that the covenant made with Abraham Isaac and Jacob is mentioned? What role in if any do those promises have in your view here? Do you think that perhaps God's faithfulness to keep the covenant promises to their fathers through circumcision continuing despite their growing sin would make for an increase in Grace?

visionary · Jun 27, 2013

annier said:
In these scriptures, do you see that the covenant made with Abraham Isaac and Jacob is mentioned? What role in if any do those promises have in your view here? Do you think that perhaps God's faithfulness to keep the covenant promises to their fathers through circumcision continuing despite their growing sin would make for an increase in Grace?

Yep... To God these moments are centuries to us humans.

annier · Jun 27, 2013

visionary said:
Yep... To God these moments are centuries to us humans.

ok, so what is your conclusion? I ask because I did not see any distinction from you in the context of covenants, as given in those verses.

visionary · Jun 27, 2013

annier said:
ok, so what is your conclusion? I ask because I did not see any distinction from you in the context of covenants, as given in those verses.

I don't think of them in the conceptualization of separate but enlarging.

dodari · Jun 27, 2013

Please, Chaverim, state a good tight definition of the word "grace' as is appropriate to this thread's discussion.

Reason being, I have heard just everything from soup to license. Must admit it makes me dizzy.

Thank you.

annier · Jun 27, 2013

visionary said:
I don't think of them in the conceptualization of separate but enlarging.

Perhaps I should be clearer. It seems you missed my question. I asked concerning the "distinction" made in those verses. Distinction does not entail a separation necessarily. And yes enlarging is the same to me as increasing as well.
So, how is grace enlarged/increased in the context of these scriptures of the law?
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Just asking for clarity of your contextual meaning vis.

visionary · Jun 27, 2013

annier said:
Perhaps I should be clearer. It seems you missed my question. I asked concerning the "distinction" made in those verses. Distinction does not entail a separation necessarily. And yes enlarging is the same to me as increasing as well.
So, how is grace enlarged/increased in the context of these scriptures of the law?
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Just asking for clarity of your contextual meaning vis.

It is like a summary or outline given and then the detail instructions came later.

Steve Petersen · Jun 27, 2013

At the very moment of the giving of the Torah, God proclaimed His graciousness:

Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Si'nai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.
3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Si'nai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.
10 ¶ And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

ananda · Jun 27, 2013

The Law given through Moses is the Way. The grace given through Messiah is the Door along that Way.

To nullify the Law is to erase the Way, and the Door along with it.

mercy1061 · Jun 27, 2013

annier said:
In these scriptures, do you see that the covenant made with Abraham Isaac and Jacob is mentioned? What role in if any do those promises have in your view here? Do you think that perhaps God's faithfulness to keep the covenant promises to their fathers through circumcision continuing despite their growing sin would make for an increase in Grace?

Let us be clear that Abraham needed "proof" or a "sign" that Adonai would keep his promise.

Gen 15
7 Then he said to him, “I am Adonai, who brought you out from Ur-Kasdim to give you this land as your possession.” 8 He replied, “Adonai, God, how am I to know that I will possess it?”

It is like when you borrow money from a bank, and you receive what is called a "master promissory note" , the note only guarantees that the borrower will repay the loan.

Romans 4:3
For what does the Tanakh say? “Avraham put his trust in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness.”

Now we know the banks use "credit" to determine whether or not the borrower is able to repay the loan. Abraham was "credited" righteousness, which means he had the financial means to repay Adonai in full.

Gen 13:2

2 Avram became wealthy, with much cattle, silver and gold.

Now we know the higher the credit score; the more comfortable the banks are to credit your account with money. Adonai credited Abraham's account "as righteousness".

Let us hear what Yeshua says about Abraham;

John 8
39 They answered him, “Our father is Avraham.” Yeshua replied, “If you are children of Avraham, then do the things Avraham did!

What works did Abraham do?

John 8
56Avraham, your father, was glad that he would see my day; then he saw it and was overjoyed.”

annier · Jun 27, 2013

Steve Petersen said:
At the very moment of the giving of the Torah, God proclaimed His graciousness:

He is very gracious, in his mercy in not destroying the people.

Ex 32 :7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? {the LORD: Heb. the face of the LORD}
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

daq · Jun 27, 2013

visionary said:
Not wanting to get into the arguments that go on "out there"... but do want to provide some logic to this verse..

This verse has all-too-often been twisted to suggest that "the law" and "grace" were opposed to one another. I would like to suggest an alternate interpretation here.

"The law," given through Moses, contained a detailed account of the punishment that would befall the nation of Israel for their disobedience to forsaking the commandments of God. (Also Deuteronomy 28-30) It also contains a promise of redemption for the nation of Israel to return to obedience to keeping God's commandments. (Also Deuteronomy 28-30) One of those punishments was that they would be banished from the land given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and scattered to every nation of the world.

Yeshua came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. (Matthew 15:24) He came to for that same group to which "the law" had been given, and had been cast away for their disobedience. Hence, when it is said that Yeshua brought grace, it is not to say that He came to spite the law, or in opposition to the law- rather, he came because OF the law. He came to enact the grace clause that had been originally provided in the law from the very beginning.

In other words:

Moses said, "You break the rules, this is the punishment, and this is how you'll come back." Moses set the stage for Jesus to arrive and say, "It's time to come back."

Moses gave the legislation, Jesus enacted it. It's not about grace versus the law, or grace trumping the law; far from it. The law enabled grace, and grace can only exist because of the law. Nothing about grace negates the law; rather, grace returns us to the law."

Perhaps this may add to the discussion as it clearly supports what you have already stated:

John 1:17 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
17. Hoti ho nomos dia Mouseos edothe, he charis kai he aletheia dia Iesou Christou egeneto.

John 1:17 LIT (Literal Bible with Vertical Strong's #s)
17.
|3754| because
|3588| the
|3551| Law
|1223| through
|3475| Moses
|1325| was given,
|5485| gracious love
|2532| and
|0225| truth
|1223| through
|2424| Jesus
|5547| Christ
|1096| came into being.

Original Strong's Ref. #3754
Romanized hoti
Pronounced hot'-ee
neuter of GSN3748 as conjunction; demonst. that (sometimes redundant); caus. because:
KJV--as concerning that, as though, because (that), for (that), how (that), (in) that, though, why.

BECAUSE the Torah through Moshe was given; the graciousness and the truth through Yeshua Christou came into being.

mercy1061 · Jun 27, 2013

visionary said:
Not wanting to get into the arguments that go on "out there"... but do want to provide some logic to this verse..

This verse has all-too-often been twisted to suggest that "the law" and "grace" were opposed to one another. I would like to suggest an alternate interpretation here.

"The law," given through Moses, contained a detailed account of the punishment that would befall the nation of Israel for their disobedience to forsaking the commandments of God. (Also Deuteronomy 28-30) It also contains a promise of redemption for the nation of Israel to return to obedience to keeping God's commandments. (Also Deuteronomy 28-30) One of those punishments was that they would be banished from the land given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and scattered to every nation of the world.

Yeshua came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. (Matthew 15:24) He came to for that same group to which "the law" had been given, and had been cast away for their disobedience. Hence, when it is said that Yeshua brought grace, it is not to say that He came to spite the law, or in opposition to the law- rather, he came because OF the law. He came to enact the grace clause that had been originally provided in the law from the very beginning.

In other words:

Moses said, "You break the rules, this is the punishment, and this is how you'll come back." Moses set the stage for Jesus to arrive and say, "It's time to come back."

Moses gave the legislation, Jesus enacted it. It's not about grace versus the law, or grace trumping the law; far from it. The law enabled grace, and grace can only exist because of the law. Nothing about grace negates the law; rather, grace returns us to the law."

John says several things before he says what he says in verse 17; John says (vs.14)

14 The Word became a human being and lived with us,
and we saw his Sh’khinah,
the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.

Then John says we all received from his fullness grace upon grace (vs. 16)

16 We have all received from his fullness,
yes, grace upon grace.

Then John says Moses gave us the spiritual Torah written down John says again "grace and truth" (vs.17);

For the Torah was given through Moshe;
grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah.

Grace is obtained over time, like a skilled ice skater "effortlessly" skates across the ice with grace, "beauty of form" and truth;

Grace (defined)

elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action: We watched her skate with effortless grace across the ice. Synonyms: attractiveness, charm, gracefulness, comeliness, ease, lissomeness, fluidity. Antonyms: stiffness, ugliness, awkwardness, clumsiness; klutziness.

ContraMundum · Jun 28, 2013

Here's some important points to help along the way.

οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο

Literally this would read "for the Law was given through Moses grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Note that the word "but" is not in the Greek. However, the insertion of it in Engllish is necessary due to the parsing. The issue is that in this case εγενετο gives the sense of meaning "came into being". How I think it is best understood as not pitting law against grace, because using this notion would mean also pitting law against grace and truth! Which is absurd.

In a sense, and I know some M's won't like this, but the text really is saying that the law was given though Moses but that grace and truth came into being as part of God's plan through Jesus the Messiah. This is not saying there was no grace and truth in the law given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus.

To illustrate further, the same word parsed εγενετο appears in

1 Cor. 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

Here the word is εγενηθη. Same word but different parsing, obviously. This allows us an insight into the NT usage of the word.

What I'm saying is this- the verse does not pit grace against the law, but rather shows the variance in the way in which they came to mankind (given vs coming into being) Also clearly there is an emphasis in the ministry of Jesus on dispelling errors (truth) and showing mercy (grace) that is the focus of the NT authors. This doesn't mean that these things aren't in the Tanakh though.

Also note: this is the only place where John uses the word grace, apart from instances of greeting.

Messianic Jewboy · Jun 28, 2013

Grace upon grace. Yeshua being the the added grace.

"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace"

Gxg (G²) · Jun 28, 2013

mpossoff said:
Grace upon grace. Yeshua being the the added grace.

"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace"

Our favorite subject... law vs grace

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