1979 Book of Common Prayer

Albion

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Very interesting discussion!


I've heard many say that the changes made in the 1979 BCP was the Episcopal Church's Vatican II, so to speak. The idea at the time was that the liturgies needed to be updated to reflect modern language. Like Vatican II for Catholics, the idea was that the church needed to be updated and the liturgies needed to be updated to reflect modern society. Many in TEC, at the time, thought that we needed to move in a Vatican II direction and adopt liturgies that were similar to what the RCC was doing. Through doing this, I imagine that they thought TEC and the RCC would be closer to achieving some sort of unity. This was very important to many TECers at the time and still is important in some TEC circles. This was certainly not the only motivation regarding the changes made in the '79 BCP, but I would say that it is a big one.

Good point. And now the Roman Church is in the process of stepping back from some of that excess while TEC is thinking of moving further into it.

just how much controversy the '28 BCP seemed to cause at the time, especially for those who leaned in a Reformed direction. Many Reformed Anglicans saw the '28 BCP as a step in an Anglo-Catholic direction and felt that the doctrine of sin had been diluted.
I think you're mistaken about that. While the point may have been correct in the 1920s, by the 1970s the Evangelical Episcopalians were the strongest opponents of ditching the historic book. The Anglo-Catholics were the strongest against the ordination of women, and both issues hit the boiling point at about the same time.

Here is an awesome website that notes the changes made in the '28 BCP:

What’s Wrong with the 1928 Book of Common Prayer? | The Heritage Anglican Network


And yet another article detailing the changes made in the '28 BCP and the Anglo-Catholic/Broad Church direction it took:

Anglicans Ablaze: Liturgy, Doctrine, and the 1928 Book of Common Prayer
 
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Sean611

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Good point. And now the Roman Church is in the process of stepping back from some of that excess while TEC is thinking of moving further into it.

Agreed, the RCC is definitely in the process of stepping back from some of the stuff from Vatican II. I also should point out that many in TEC and in the RCC thought these modern language changes would bring more people in, something that has not happened for either the RCC or TEC.


I think you're mistaken about that. While the point may have been correct in the 1920s, by the 1970s the Evangelical Episcopalians were the strongest opponents of ditching the historic book. The Anglo-Catholics were the strongest against the ordination of women, and both issues hit the boiling point at about the same time.

I think that by the 70s, you are correct. However, at the turn of the century, Reformed Anglicans had lost much of their sway in TEC to Anglo-Catholics and Broach church elements. At the time of the '28 BCP, there seemed to be quite a bit of controversy regarding the changes made in that prayer book. By the 70s, those controversies had disappeared. I'm not being critical of the '28 BCP, but just stating that the controversies were there and were real.
 
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Albion

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Agreed, the RCC is definitely in the process of stepping back from some of the stuff from Vatican II. I also should point out that many in TEC and in the RCC thought these modern language changes would bring more people in, something that has not happened for either the RCC or TEC.




I think that by the 70s, you are correct. However, at the turn of the century, Reformed Anglicans had lost much of their sway in TEC to Anglo-Catholics and Broach church elements. At the time of the '28 BCP, there seemed to be quite a bit of controversy regarding the changes made in that prayer book. By the 70s, those controversies had disappeared. I'm not being critical of the '28 BCP, but just stating that the controversies were there and were real.


I'd agree with everything you've said here except that I think it is appropriate to add that the changes made in the 1928 book were very few. Yes, they were seen as tilting in the Catholic direction, and that caused concern, but they were very few and subtle. IOW, the point about the 1979 book being unprecedented for the scope of its changes is still true.
 
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kern

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Agreed, the RCC is definitely in the process of stepping back from some of the stuff from Vatican II. I also should point out that many in TEC and in the RCC thought these modern language changes would bring more people in, something that has not happened for either the RCC or TEC.

On the other hand, you have to be careful in putting too much of a correlation with liturgy changes and falling church attendance. I think in general factors like "I don't believe in God" or "I don't think homosexuality is a sin" are going to be much more important than "The 1979 Book of Common Prayer is too much of a change for my taste." (or "Good thing they updated the language, now I'll start going to church again" seems pretty unlikely for a lot of people.)

The RCC situation I find even less defensible; I'm not sure I would have ever been drawn to the Catholic church if the services were mostly in a language I couldn't understand and I wasn't allowed to participate in the majority of the prayers.
 
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Albion

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On the other hand, you have to be careful in putting too much of a correlation with liturgy changes and falling church attendance. I think in general factors like "I don't believe in God" or "I don't think homosexuality is a sin" are going to be much more important than "The 1979 Book of Common Prayer is too much of a change for my taste." (or "Good thing they updated the language, now I'll start going to church again" seems pretty unlikely for a lot of people.)

True, but you're mixing different eras together. The prayerbook changes were based on the factors already identified. The controversies you ar3 referring to came later. TEC has been losing members rather steadily for a half century, so both of these factors have played a part in that phenomenon. In the 1960s and 70s, Christian denominations as a whole were worried about a decline in church membership which had peaked after WWII. Now it appears that this has been accepted-- defiantly -- as not important and some of the more liberal churches are just content to say, "We're doing what's right and we don't care who disagrees with it."

The RCC situation I find even less defensible; I'm not sure I would have ever been drawn to the Catholic church if the services were mostly in a language I couldn't understand and I wasn't allowed to participate in the majority of the prayers.
Yes. And to be fair to the RCC, its changes were far more sweeping than those instituted by TEC (if we confine the changes to non-essentials like the language of worship and not include the abandonment of traditional doctrine).
 
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Esdra

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The RCC situation I find even less defensible; I'm not sure I would have ever been drawn to the Catholic church if the services were mostly in a language I couldn't understand and I wasn't allowed to participate in the majority of the prayers.

As far as I know about the Tridentine masses (from what granny told me), there were many parishoners' prayers. And the parishoners knew all Latin prayers by heart.
However, I'm sure there were more prayers for the parishoners than in the Orthodox Church. I guess the Orthodox Church always has been more mystical and put more emphasis on the Eucharist.
But I agree, a Tridentine mass is very alien to us after-Vatican-II Catholics. I've been in one. (The priest of our neighbouring parish offers Tridentine masses.)
 
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MKJ

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Agreed, the RCC is definitely in the process of stepping back from some of the stuff from Vatican II. I also should point out that many in TEC and in the RCC thought these modern language changes would bring more people in, something that has not happened for either the RCC or TEC.




I think that by the 70s, you are correct. However, at the turn of the century, Reformed Anglicans had lost much of their sway in TEC to Anglo-Catholics and Broach church elements. At the time of the '28 BCP, there seemed to be quite a bit of controversy regarding the changes made in that prayer book. By the 70s, those controversies had disappeared. I'm not being critical of the '28 BCP, but just stating that the controversies were there and were real.

I think it is fair to say that the 28 book moved in a more Catholic direction. That is probably not surprising - some might say that the Reformed influence had been a little out of balance before that. Relativly speaking, the liturgy of the BCP was fairly young, so I think a little back and forth would be expected.

The difference as I see it with the 70s revision is not so much a matter of each individual change, or even changes giving a bit more or less weight to positions already found there.

It is more about a wholly different view of what the liturgy is to do, the way it represents and embodies the tradition of the Church, what Scripture is and the nature of its authority, the relation of community to liturgy and Scripture. By the 60s and 70s, there were a whole different set of ideas present that were really new to the Church - what I guess some people might call liberal Christianity (though that is a confusing term but I cannot think of another one at the moment.)

This is when we begin to see the rise of atheist bishops, of people saying Christ was just a great guy, or the Prayer Book was a tool for elitism and oppression of the proletariat. These I think were really alien ideas, but their proponents were very interested in liturgical reform. And obviously they were working from a totally different set of principles than those that had informed any previous BCP.

It isnt the number of changes that is so significant (though that is arguable important to - it is a question whether we were in a position to require serious revision on the scale even of what Cranmer did - those people found themselves after all in a rather unusual situation), it is the principles they were based on.
 
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FireDragon76

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This is when we begin to see the rise of atheist bishops, of people saying Christ was just a great guy, or the Prayer Book was a tool for elitism and oppression of the proletariat. These I think were really alien ideas, but their proponents were very interested in liturgical reform. And obviously they were working from a totally different set of principles than those that had informed any previous BCP.

Bishop Pike left the Episcopal Church, though... he didn't die in good standing there. I don't know how much his mindset influenced the 1979 BCP- there are conservative Episcopalians that don't think there is much influence there from the liberals like him. Pike objected strongly to some things that the 1979 BCP eventually included, like the Mystery of Faith: "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again", for instance.
 
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MKJ

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Bishop Pike left the Episcopal Church, though... he didn't die in good standing there. I don't know how much his mindset influenced the 1979 BCP- there are conservative Episcopalians that don't think there is much influence there from the liberals like him. Pike objected strongly to some things that the 1979 BCP eventually included, like the Mystery of Faith: "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again", for instance.

The liturgical movement was not just an episcopal thing. The people who shaped it came from a lot of different parts of Anglicanism, and from Catholicism for that matter. The first to base a Prayer Book on its ideas were, IIRC, the Indians.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The liturgical movement was not just an episcopal thing. The people who shaped it came from a lot of different parts of Anglicanism, and from Catholicism for that matter. The first to base a Prayer Book on its ideas were, IIRC, the Indians.

No, we went through it also. In the 1970's our Synod's liturgical committee came up with with "Lutheran Worship"; and exercise in ecumenical modernization for the sake of ecumenical modernization. It was far from being universally accepted. Our newest "Lutheran Service Book" was more of a "restoration", is more "High Church" than our old 1948 "The Lutheran Hymnal", and has been universally accepted.

BTW, back in 1978 I attended a High Anglican service with my cousins in Toronto, in which the Liturgy was in Latin and incense was used. I believe it was at St. Mary Magdalene.
 
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MKJ

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No, we went through it also. In the 1970's our Synod's liturgical committee came up with with "Lutheran Worship"; and exercise in ecumenical modernization for the sake of ecumenical modernization. It was far from being universally accepted. Our newest "Lutheran Service Book" was more of a "restoration", is more "High Church" than our old 1948 "The Lutheran Hymnal", and has been universally accepted.

BTW, back in 1978 I attended a High Anglican service with my cousins in Toronto, in which the Liturgy was in Latin and incense was used. I believe it was at St. Mary Magdalene.

I didn't mean to suggest that no other groups had gone through the same liturgical changes. I grew up using the Lutheran Book of Worship.

Was the whole of the liturgy you attended in Latin - and was it a BCP liturgy translated or something else altogether.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I didn't mean to suggest that no other groups had gone through the same liturgical changes. I grew up using the Lutheran Book of Worship.

What was your overall opinion of it?

Was the whole of the liturgy you attended in Latin - and was it a BCP liturgy translated or something else altogether.

I'm not sure, that was a while ago. I don't think it was Tridentine, as the Scripture readings were not chanted in Latin facing the alter, but were read from the Lectern in English, facing the Congregation.
 
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MKJ

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What was your overall opinion of it?

Well, I liked it better than Sunday school. When I have used it as an adult, it seems to be much like the others of its type. The congregation I grew up in rather changed its style of liturgy since i was a child - they are much more free-form and evangelical in style now, whereas before they seemed much more Germanic.

I'm not sure, that was a while ago. I don't think it was Tridentine, as the Scripture readings were not chanted in Latin facing the alter, but were read from the Lectern in English, facing the Congregation.

Hmm. I have been to plenty of Anglican services where the sung part of the service was in Latin, but never where the whole except the readings. And i have never seen the Creed in Latin.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Well, I liked it better than Sunday school. When I have used it as an adult, it seems to be much like the others of its type. The congregation I grew up in rather changed its style of liturgy since i was a child - they are much more free-form and evangelical in style now, whereas before they seemed much more Germanic.
:D:DThe new Hymnal still has lot's of Germanic hymns... and a bunch of Anglican ones as well.

We are fortunate in that most of our Churches here in the East District range from middle to high liturgically speaking.:thumbsup::) Don't think I can say the same for the west.

Hmm. I have been to plenty of Anglican services where the sung part of the service was in Latin, but never where the whole except the readings. And i have never seen the Creed in Latin.
Actually the Creed and the Our Father were recited in English.:)
 
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No, we went through it also. In the 1970's our Synod's liturgical committee came up with with "Lutheran Worship"; and exercise in ecumenical modernization for the sake of ecumenical modernization. It was far from being universally accepted. Our newest "Lutheran Service Book" was more of a "restoration", is more "High Church" than our old 1948 "The Lutheran Hymnal", and has been universally accepted.


I believe I have both of those books.
I have to find them.
 
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Mockingbird0

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"Reasserter" and "Reappraiser" are not derogatory terms. They were invented (so I have heard) by Kendall Harmon as a means of helping keep debate civil. If anyone knows an alternative tale of their origin, I would be interested to hear it.

Many of the conclusions drawn by the liturgical movement, the ones incorporated into the liturgies of the 70s and early 80s, have been shown to be incorrect. They are no longer current in the academic world.
A re-evaluation of earlier scholarly work in this context can be found in "The Relationship between Historical Research and Modern Liturgical Practice" by Paul F. Bradshaw, in David Pitt et al. eds., A Living Tradition: On the intersection of Liturgical History and Pastoral Practice Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minnesota, 2012. Parts of this essay can be seen in the previews of the collection at Google Books:

A Living Tradition: On the Intersection of Liturgical History and Pastoral ... - Google Books

and at Amazon:

Amazon.com: A Living Tradition (Pueblo Books) eBook: David Pitt, Stefanos Alexopoulos, David A. Pitt, Stefanos Alexopoulos, Christian Mcconnell: Kindle Store

Even if I were to accept all of Bradshaw's conclusions as-is, still there is nothing in his essay to impeach any text in the 1979 BCP. The only BCP text he explicitly mentions is Anaphora D, which he commends. His sometimes-petty kvetches have implications more for catechesis than for liturgical revision. Where texts are concerned, Bradshaw is very explicit that the liturgical revisers weren't trying to "move back", for he writes:
The aim of these reformers [i.e. the mid-20th century pastors who revised the liturgies] was certainly not, as has sometimes been alleged, to restore what is discovered from the past as normative for the present and to eliminate from modern practice all later developments as inauthentic....As a very obvious example of the desire not to put the clock back to the fourth century absolutely but to include what appeared to be appropriate later developments, we may point out that the text of the eucharistic prayer of the Apostolic Tradition has in no instance been adopted verbatim an any church today. On the contrary, various additions and amendments were made to it, as, for example, the near universal insertion of the Sanctus. All modern revisers have similarly believed it to be important to include a penitential unit within their eucharistic rites, in spite of the fact that such a thing is never found in the oldest texts that we possess.

More generally, I reject the idea that liturgical revision can only happen in a generation in which pastors and historians are infallible.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I believe I have both of those books.
I have to find them.

If you do, compare page 15 in the 1948 hymnal to (it's been a while so I may be wrong) with the first setting in Lutheran Worship. You will note that they modernized the language, changed the key and re-harmonized the setting with some really bizarre and weird chords; rendering it virtually unsingable.

Moving forward about 30 years, our new "Lutheran Service Book" "Divine Service Three"; the key has been changed yet again to make it more singable (it works!); they have restored the old language and the old harmonies; and they have included the scores so it may be fully sung. In the Rubrics, there is also provision for the readings to be chanted. As incense is considered "adiaphora", it may be used.
 
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mark46

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This is true, but the apparent implication is not. This is no reason the believe that either US Church would be larger absent the changes.

I understand that there are Catholics that want to live in 1950's or earlier with the Latin Mass, and all the other aspects of the Church as it existed then. You must understand that this is a very small, but vocal minority. If these folks are
holding their breath waiting for Pope Francis to roll back Vatican II, they are in serious trouble. It's not happening. The Catholic Church has many reasons for its lack of large growth in recent decades, Vatican II is not one of them.

In TEC, it is not the BCP changes in the 1979 prayer book that caused the decline in attendance. The issues have been discussed here for years.


I also should point out that many in TEC and in the RCC thought these modern language changes would bring more people in, something that has not happened for either the RCC or TEC.
 
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MKJ

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This is true, but the apparent implication is not. This is no reason the believe that either US Church would be larger absent the changes.

I understand that there are Catholics that want to live in 1950's or earlier with the Latin Mass, and all the other aspects of the Church as it existed then. You must understand that this is a very small, but vocal minority. If these folks are
holding their breath waiting for Pope Francis to roll back Vatican II, they are in serious trouble. It's not happening. The Catholic Church has many reasons for its lack of large growth in recent decades, Vatican II is not one of them.

In TEC, it is not the BCP changes in the 1979 prayer book that caused the decline in attendance. The issues have been discussed here for years.


Maintaining relevance and numbers, especially youth, was one of the justifications for the changes - that is the point I think.
 
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