Weep Over Jerusalem?

C

crimsonleaf

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Are you okay with the possibility that God may have withheld mercy from you?

Although this has been dealt with clearly by others I think it will need a lot of reinforcing before it truly goes in.

Janx - I'm fine with the possibility that God chooses to save me. He chose to save you too, and most of the posters here. But there was a time before He chose me, when I too was an atheist, and Griff is spot on; I didn't care. I could have been the atheist he was talking about.

No atheist will ever say "I wish God had chosen me" because God to them is a folly, imagined by the enfeebled minds of desperate people who can't get through life without the crutch of religion. But any atheist who really does utter the words "I wish God had chosen me" isn't an atheist any longer. God is already at work in him.

Would it have been just for me to die and miss out on all that God offers? Yes, because I chose to turn my back on Him.

Is it just that I have been saved? No, it is merciful.
 
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guuila

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Although this has been dealt with clearly by others I think it will need a lot of reinforcing before it truly goes in.

Janx - I'm fine with the possibility that God chooses to save me. He chose to save you too, and most of the posters here. But there was a time before He chose me, when I too was an atheist, and Griff is spot on; I didn't care. I could have been the atheist he was talking about.

No atheist will ever say "I wish God had chosen me" because God to them is a folly, imagined by the enfeebled minds of desperate people who can't get through life without the crutch of religion. But any atheist who really does utter the words "I wish God had chosen me" isn't an atheist any longer. God is already at work in him.

Would it have been just for me to die and miss out on all that God offers? Yes, because I chose to turn my back on Him.

Is it just that I have been saved? No, it is merciful.

I cannot say Amen enough. Such a breath of fresh air.
 
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crimsonleaf

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He spoke also this parable to certain people who were convinced of their own righteousness, and who despised all others. "Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
— Luke 18:9-14
 
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guuila

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I'm reposting this because it was ignored and it's really worthy of consideration:

griff said:
Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the LORD at Jerusalem to keep the Passover to the LORD, the God of Israel. For the king and his princes and all the assembly in Jerusalem had taken counsel to keep the Passover in the second month—for they could not keep it at that time because the priests had not consecrated themselves in sufficient number, nor had the people assembled in Jerusalem—and the plan seemed right to the king and all the assembly. So they decreed to make a proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, that the people should come and keep the Passover to the LORD, the God of Israel, at Jerusalem, for they had not kept it as often as prescribed. So couriers went throughout all Israel and Judah with letters from the king and his princes, as the king had commanded, saying, “O people of Israel, return to the LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, that he may turn again to the remnant of you who have escaped from the hand of the kings of Assyria. Do not be like your fathers and your brothers, who were faithless to the LORD God of their fathers, so that he made them a desolation, as you see. Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD and come to his sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever, and serve the LORD your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you. For if you return to the LORD, your brothers and your children will find compassion with their captors and return to this land. For the LORD your God is gracious and merciful and will not turn away his face from you, if you return to him.”
So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD. (2 Chronicles 30:1-12 ESV)


Please explain why it is that Judah, some men of Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem doing what the king and the princes commanded. What made the difference between them and those who laughed them to scorn?
 
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jdbear

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griff said,
Does God ensure that every single person hears about Jesus Christ and the way of salvation that is only through him?
By name, no, through faith, yes.
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Ro.1:17
griff said,
You need to read the context. Prior to v37, over and over he says, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites..." He's obviously speaking to the Jewish leaders.
Then in v37, he says "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" (Matthew 23:37 ESV)
Who was it that killed the prophets and stoned those who were sent to the Jewish people? The Jewish leaders? Yes or no?
Generally speaking, yes, but absolutely, no. There are examples in scripture of both leaders and commoners persecuting and killing Gods prophets. It is a mistake to understand Jesus' harshness in criticising leaders (Jas.3:1) as meaning others won't be judged.

John Gill explains Matthew 23:37 well. Observe:
The metropolis of Judea, the seat of the kings of Judah, yea, the city of the great king; the place of divine worship, once the holy and faithful city, the joy of the whole earth; wherefore it was strange that the following things should be said of it. The word is repeated to show our Lord's affection and concern for that city, as well as to upbraid it with its name, dignity, and privileges; and designs not the building of the city, but the inhabitants of it; and these not all, but the rulers and governors of it, civil and ecclesiastical; especially the great sanhedrim, which were held in it, to whom best belong the descriptive characters of killing the prophets, and stoning them that were sent by God unto them; since it belonged to them to take cognizance of such who called themselves prophets, and to examine, and judge them, and, if false, to condemn them F8; hence that saying of Christ, ( Luke 13:33 ) which goes before the same words, as here, "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem": and who are manifestly distinguished from their "children": it being usual to call such as were the heads of the people, either in a civil or ecclesiastic sense, "fathers", and their subjects and disciples, "children": besides, our Lord's discourse throughout the whole context is directed to the Scribes and Pharisees, the ecclesiastic guides of the people, and to whom the civil governors paid a special regard. Thou that killest the prophets;
that is, with the sword, with which the prophets in Elijah's time were slain by the children of Israel, ( 1 Kings 19:10 ) and which was one of the capital punishments inflicted by the Jewish sanhedrim F9; and also that which follows was another of them. And stonest them which were sent unto thee;
as particularly Zechariah, the son of Jehoiada, before mentioned. The Jews themselves are obliged to own, that this character belongs to them: say F11 they,
``when the word of God shall come, who is his messenger, we will honour him. Says R. Saul, did not the prophets come, (Mwngrhw) , "and we killed them", and shed their blood, and how shall we receive his word? or how shall we believe?''
And a celebrated writer of their's, on those words F12, "but now murderers", has this note;
``they have killed Uriah, they have killed Zechariah.''
How often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen
gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Christ here speaks as a man, and the minister of the circumcision, and expresses an human affection for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and an human wish, and will for their temporal good; which he very aptly signifies by the hen, which is a very affectionate creature to its young, and which it endeavours to screen from danger, by covering with its wings. So the "Shekinah" with the Jews is called, (avydq arpu) , "the holy bird" F13; and that phrase, (xnykvh ypnk txt twoxl) , "to betake one's self, or to come to trust under the wings of the Shekinah", is often used F14 for to become a proselyte to the true religion, and worship of God, as Jethro, and Ruth the Moabitess did. An expression much like to this here is used by an apocryphal writer of 2 Esdras:
``I gathered you together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings: but now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from my face.'' (2 Esdras 1:30)
It seems to be a simile much in use with that people. Our Lord is to be understood not of his divine will, as God, to gather the people of the Jews internally, by his Spirit and grace, to himself; for all those whom Christ would gather, in this sense, were gathered, notwithstanding all the opposition made by the rulers of the people; but of his human affection and will, as a man, and a minister, to gather them to him externally, by, and under the ministry of his word, to hear him preach; so as that they might be brought to a conviction of, and an assent unto him as the Messiah; which, though it might fall short of faith in him, would have been sufficient to have preserved them from temporal ruin, threatened to their city and temple, in the following verse. Instances of the human affection, and will of Christ, may be observed in ( Mark 10:21 ) ( Luke 19:41 ) ( 22:42 ) which will of his, though not contrary to the divine will, but subordinate to it, yet not always the same with it, nor always fulfilled: whereas his divine will, or his will as God, is, always fulfilled: "who hath resisted his will?" this cannot be hindered, and made void; he does whatsoever he pleases: and further, that this will of Christ to gather the Jews to himself, is to be understood of his human, and not divine will, is manifest from hence, that this will was in him, and expressed by him at certain several times, by intervals; and therefore he says, "how often would I have gathered", &c. whereas the divine will is one continued, invariable, and unchangeable will, is always the same, and never begins or ceases to be, and to which such an expression is inapplicable; and therefore these words do not contradict the absolute and sovereign will of God, in the distinguishing acts of it, respecting the choice of some persons, and the leaving of others. And it is to be observed, that the persons whom Christ would have gathered, are not represented as being unwilling to be gathered; but their rulers were not willing that they should, and be made proselytes to him, and come under his wings. It is not said, "how often would I have gathered you, and you would not!" nor, "I would have gathered Jerusalem, and she would not"; nor, "I would have gathered thy children, and they would not"; but, "how often would I have gathered thy children, and ye would not!" Which observation alone is sufficient to destroy the argument founded on this passage in favour of free will. Had Christ expressed his desire to have gathered the heads of the people to him, the members of the Jewish sanhedrim, the civil and ecclesiastical rulers of the Jews: or had he signified how much he wished, and earnestly sought after, and attempted to gather Jerusalem, the children, the inhabitants of it in common, and neither of them would not; it would have carried some appearance of the doctrine of free will, and have seemed to have countenanced it, and have imputed the non-gathering of them to their own will: though had it been said, "they would not", instead of, "ye would not", it would only have furnished out a most sad instance of the perverseness of the will of man, which often opposes his temporal, as well as his spiritual good; and would rather show it to be a slave to that which is evil, than free to that which is good; and would be a proof of this, not in a single person only, but in a body of men. The opposition and resistance to the will of Christ were not made by the people, but by their governors. The common people seemed inclined to attend his ministry, as appears from the vast crowds, which, at different times and places, followed him; but the chief priests, and rulers, did all they could to hinder the collection of them to him, and their belief in him as the Messiah; by traducing his character, miracles, and doctrines, and by menacing the people with curses, and excommunications, making a law, that whoever confessed him should be turned out of the synagogue. So that the plain meaning of the text is the same with that of ( Matthew 23:13 ) and consequently is no proof of men's resisting the operations of the Spirit and grace of God; but only shows what obstructions and discouragements were thrown in the way of attendance on the external ministry of the word. In order to set aside, and overthrow the doctrine of grace, in election, and particular redemption, and effectual calling, it should be proved that Christ, as God, would have gathered, not Jerusalem, and the inhabitants of it only, but all mankind, even such as are not eventually saved, and that in a spiritual, saving way and manner, to himself; of which there is not the least intimation in this text: and in order to establish the resistibility of the grace of God, by the perverse will of man, so as to become of no effect; it should be shown that Christ would have savingly converted persons, and they would not be converted; and that he bestowed the same grace upon them, he does bestow on others, who are converted: whereas the sum of this passage lies in these few words, that Christ, as man, out of a compassionate regard for the people of the Jews, to whom, he was sent as the minister of the circumcision, would have gathered them together under his ministry, and have instructed them in the knowledge of himself, as the Messiah; which if they had only notionally received, would have secured them, as chickens under the hen, from impending judgments, which afterwards fell upon them; but their governors, and not they, would not; that is, would not suffer them to receive him, and embrace him as the Messiah. So that from the whole it appears, that this passage of Scripture, so much talked of by the Arminians, and so often cited by them, has nothing to do with the controversy about the doctrines of election and reprobation, particular redemption, efficacious grace in conversion, and the power of man's free will. This observation alone is sufficient to destroy the argument founded on this passage, in favour of free will.
The problem with Gill is he must teach Jesus speaks from human comapassion instead of Divine will to explain away free will, and why?...because Gill (as every Calvinist) has no idea how God can work all things according to His own will despite having allowed man free will. Gills commentary also impresses a false notion that none of the rulers believed in Jesus when scripture teaches many of them did. Gills idea that Jesus simply didn't want the Pharisees to be saved is madness.
Tell me griff,
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" Acts 4:27-28
Did God make anyone kill Jesus? Forget about doctrine. Forget about Arminian or Calvinist beliefs. Forget about Gill. Forget about doctrine altogether. Just think of everything you know about those mentioned from a historical standpoint. The answer becomes crystal. Same for Pharaoh having his heart hardened. Forget about doctrine. So simple it's astonishing.
griff said,
Does Matt. 23:37 refute the synergist's understanding of John 12:32?
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37 ESV)
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32 ESV)
In John 12:32, Jesus says he will draw all people to himself. I don't believe this means 100% of humanity, but synergists do.
I must not be a synergist.
griff said,
So assuming they are correct, how am I supposed to understand Mattew 23:37? Jesus there says that he would have gathered the children of Israel together, but the Jewish leaders weren't willing. In other words, like Matthew 23:13 says, the scribes and Pharisees shut the kingdom of God in people's faces and weren't willing to let them be exposed to Jesus. Note just one out of many examples:
So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” (John 11:47-48 ESV) then in v53:
So from that day on they made plans to put him to death. (John 11:53 ESV)
How exactly did Jesus draw the people who the scribes and Pharisees prevented from being exposed to Jesus?
People who did come were drawn by a sense of wanting to know God and this of their own free will, but to those who didn't come, He said it was His "oft" desire to gather them, which is no different from His Divine will. Jn.12:32 is related to Jn.12:20.
 
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janxharris

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I told them about God's sovereign grace, yes. There is no hope for people whose names aren't currently written in the Book of Life. I don't care how you want to spin it. Yes, I told the atheist that ultimately God will be the one who saves him if he is saved. He had no problem with that. He doesn't want to be saved. He doesn't care if there is no hope for him. He hates God. If that hatred for God changes to love for God, God will be the reason for it, not him. Salvation is of the Lord. Evidently that means something entirely different to you. In your theology, salvation is of you and the Lord.

I take that as a no then.

Why not? Why wouldn't you say to someone you are explaining the Gospel to, 'you might not be one of the ones God decided to save?'
 
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janxharris

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Although this has been dealt with clearly by others I think it will need a lot of reinforcing before it truly goes in.

Janx - I'm fine with the possibility that God chooses to save me. He chose to save you too, and most of the posters here. But there was a time before He chose me, when I too was an atheist, and Griff is spot on; I didn't care. I could have been the atheist he was talking about.

No atheist will ever say "I wish God had chosen me" because God to them is a folly, imagined by the enfeebled minds of desperate people who can't get through life without the crutch of religion. But any atheist who really does utter the words "I wish God had chosen me" isn't an atheist any longer. God is already at work in him.

Would it have been just for me to die and miss out on all that God offers? Yes, because I chose to turn my back on Him.

Is it just that I have been saved? No, it is merciful.

Thanks for your answer. I can see that what I have asked is difficult to answer from what you have said. However, I'll try again but this time in the light of some other scriptures:

Matthew 11:21
Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those that do the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Heberews 3:12-14
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

2 Peter 3:20-21
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

So, since it is possible to lose ones faith, or, if not, it is possible that we were not true believers in the first place:

Are you okay with the possibility that God may have withheld mercy from you?
 
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cygnusx1

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If irresistible grace was true and Jesus wanted to gather unbelievers to Himself, it wouldn't matter what the religious leaders did to prevent it.
.
This is insanity. God desires and wishes people would come to Him, then wills them not to come to Him. Pure insanity.

Having multiple , even opposing feelings (desires) over a person/s at the same time is far from insanity , it is a Biblical fact.

Your first point is the error of fatalism , or ends without means , pure fatalism.
 
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janxharris

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I'm reposting this because it was ignored and it's really worthy of consideration:

Re: 2 Chronilces 30.

How one reads it all depends on where one puts one's emphasis. It says that some humbled themselves, but also, as you rightly stress, 'The hand of God was on Judah to give them unity of mind...'.

If free will is not existent then what is the point of life?
 
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jdbear

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cygnusx1 said,
Having multiple , even opposing feelings (desires) over a person/s at the same time is far from insanity , it is a Biblical fact.
You're right, but when you teach the only thing that can save is how Jesus feels about people. and He says His desire is to save them, and He doesn't save them, Jesus becomes insane.

cygnusx21 said,
Your first point is the error of fatalism , or ends without means , pure fatalism.
Calvinism is pure fatalism. Calvinism teaches God created the vast majority of people for the purpose of destroying them. I'm going to have a child to kill it. This is insane. This is not the God and Jesus described in the Bible.
 
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Hammster

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You're right, but when you teach the only thing that can save is how Jesus feels about people. and He says His desire is to save them, and He doesn't save them, Jesus becomes insane.


Calvinism is pure fatalism. Calvinism teaches God created the vast majority of people for the purpose of destroying them. I'm going to have a child to kill it. This is insane. This is not the God and Jesus described in the Bible.

Open Theism (the idea that God doesn't know the future) is only allowed to be discussed in Unorthodox Theology.
 
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Arcoe

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Having multiple , even opposing feelings (desires) over a person/s at the same time is far from insanity , it is a Biblical fact.

So God's desires are feelings. And I thought Calvinists did not like feelings or emotions when it came to one's decisions.

Why would God have this feeling to gather them now, when in time past He has already determined He wouldn't gather them?

Your first point is the error of fatalism , or ends without means , pure fatalism.

Tell us how, even though Jesus desired to gather them, the leaders prevented this desire of Jesus. You sure give man a lot of credit for thwarting Jesus' feelings.
 
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Hammster

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Hamm, this wasn't brought up in the discussion.

The way I read the post gave the impression that the member doesn't believe God knows the future. Just trying to be proactive so we don't go down that road.
 
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The way I read the post gave the impression that the member doesn't believe God knows the future. Just trying to be proactive so we don't go down that road.

If that's your impression, then that's okay. But I surely wouldn't reprimand anyone if it wasn't specifically brought up.
 
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guuila

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I take that as a no then.

Why not? Why wouldn't you say to someone you are explaining the Gospel to, 'you might not be one of the ones God decided to save?'

That was implied by what I said, and it was understood by the atheist, and he didn't give a rip about it. I guess I'll go ahead and remind you, this is true of your theology as well. People are born everyday who are non-elect. Your problem is with election itself, not Calvinism.
 
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guuila

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Re: 2 Chronilces 30.

How one reads it all depends on where one puts one's emphasis. It says that some humbled themselves, but also, as you rightly stress, 'The hand of God was on Judah to give them unity of mind...'.

If free will is not existent then what is the point of life?

No. It really depends on how important you think grammar is, and whether or not you're willing to ignore grammar to uphold your free will traditions. You basically read verses like this as "It can't mean what it seems to say, because free will."
 
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guuila

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Calvinism teaches God created the vast majority of people for the purpose of destroying them.

If you're not an Open Theist, I don't know why. Calvinism doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches that. Jesus himself said many enter the broad way of destruction, and God continues to create those people knowing that's where they're headed. Your problem is with orthodox Christianity, not Calvinism. You act as though God is adding names to the Book of Life today. Every synergist I've dealt with on these forums has a problem with election.

Bottom line: If Bob's name isn't written in the Book of Life, and God creates Bob anyway, Bob was created for hell. God could've simply chosen not to create Bob knowing Bob wouldn't believe, but God made him anyway. God made Bob for hell. There's no way around it.
 
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janxharris

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That was implied by what I said, and it was understood by the atheist, and he didn't give a rip about it. I guess I'll go ahead and remind you, this is true of your theology as well. People are born everyday who are non-elect. Your problem is with election itself, not Calvinism.

I do not accept that it true of my theology.

Every single person that is born has an equal chance to come to Christ.
 
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