Israeli Apartheid Week

Praying for the Peace of Jerusalem and for Israel. The Bible has not changed - it tells us to pray for Israel - it does not say stop at a certain point. God's hand is still on Israel and will protect Her.

Zazal said:

Well the fact is that the people who now call themselves Palestinians, never owned a country and were largely small scattered groups of Arabs dotted throughout Palestine.

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The fact is that they lived there. That was their homeland, and their homeland was taken away from them.

It was a neo-colonial land-grab, no different than what European colonists did to the Native Americans.

But, at least Native Americans are permitted to walk on the streets of cities and towns occupied by the descendants of those colonists:

I believe that when Israel became a country again, those that had lived there should have been embraced as strangers/aliens and given equal rights.

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Well, they weren't aliens in their own homeland, but I am glad to see that you think they should have been given equal rights.

Crandaddy said:

The fact is that they lived there. That was their homeland, and their homeland was taken away from them.

It was a neo-colonial land-grab, no different than what European colonists did to the Native Americans.

But, at least Native Americans are permitted to walk on the streets of cities and towns occupied by the descendants of those colonists:


Well, they weren't aliens in their own homeland, but I am glad to see that you think they should have been given equal rights.

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No country is guilt free. They all have blood on their hands. But swallowing a camel wont make the gnats disappear. Do we expect Israel to let suicide bombers attack them without taking protective measures?

Eseven said:

No country is guilt free. They all have blood on their hands. But swallowing a camel wont make the gnats disappear. Do we expect Israel to let suicide bombers attack them without taking protective measures?

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Let them go after the terrorists then, but the Israeli segregationist policies have to go.

Imagine if everyone of a certain minority group were prohibited from walking on certain streets here in America just because only a few members of that group had committed terrorist acts. Do you think we'd put up with that?

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Israel's activities or her policies might be encouraging the violence?

Crandaddy said:

Let them go after the terrorists then, but the Israeli segregationist policies have to go.

Imagine if everyone of a certain minority group were prohibited from walking on certain streets here in America just because only a few members of that group had committed terrorist acts. Do you think we'd put up with that?

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Israel's activities or her policies might be encouraging the violence?

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Perhaps, but not merely as much as Israels existence is causing the violence.

When Jewish neighbourhoods can be built on Palestinian lands, without the necessity of becoming armed camps, then Palestinians will be ready for their own state, but not before.
Arab Israelis have no problem walking the streets of Israel. It is not as if there is a reenactment of Jim Crowe laws, or apartheid or sharia dhimmi status against them.

The walls and the checkpoints get put up and reinforced as a result of the intifada.

Zazal said:

Whoa there laddie

You quoted, 'About Israel, God says, "The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine: for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me." Leviticus 25:23.

Without placing it in the fuller context which is indeed talking about how individuals act towards the land they use...you make it sound as if G-d is talking about the nation of Israel when clearly He is talking about how individuals are to behave regarding the mon-permanent sale of land..

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Again, one has to assume BEFORE addressing the text that the Chapter of Leviticus was speaking to individuals rather than a collective nation of PEOPLE. It was NEVER in the sense of individuals - but the whole. That goes directly back to Leviticus 25:1-4 when it comes to the Lord noting how his commands were for ALL the Israelites - first starting with understanding the issue of giving the land its Sabbath rest - and then moving on to the issue of debt...which all were bound to honor with the Year of Jubilee. Obviously, not all would be in bondage - but the rules applied to all in the event that others sold themselves to pay debts - with it established that the entire basis for proper treatment for ALL in Israel being that they themselves were foreigners in the Land/having NO rights to mistreat others as if they owned it when the Lord was being gracious to them.
The entire context was one in speaking to the people - giving specific laws on how to have ownership played out of the land (stewardship), which is specific to situations arising....and yet there was also ZOOMING out after specifics were given on situations on the larger themes. Anything less is avoiding the context, Bruh.. For that is why the Lord made clear that the people collectively agreed to His terms - and his commands were to the people.

25‘If a fellow countryman of yours becomes so poor he has to sell part of his property, then his nearest kinsman is to come and buy back what his relative has sold. 26‘Or in case a man has no kinsman, but so recovers his means as to find sufficient for its redemption, 27then he shall calculate the years since its sale and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it, and so return to his property. 28‘But if he has not found sufficient means to get it back for himself, then what he has sold shall remain in the hands of its purchaser until the year of jubilee; but at the jubilee it shall revert, that he may return to his property.
29‘Likewise, if a man sells a dwelling house in a walled city, then his redemption right remains valid until a full year from its sale; his right of redemption lasts a full year. 30‘But if it is not bought back for him within the space of a full year, then the house that is in the walled city passes permanently to its purchaser throughout his generations; it does not revert in the jubilee.

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In this summary you are projecting your own thoughts understanding about what those of us who support Israel mean by it, and what you suggest is just not correct...at least not with how I view things, and many others who express similar views here.[/quote]Again, nothing of what you say really dealt with scripture - and thus, it'd behoove you to not assume that you are not projecting when you already did just that - without reference to history. It is what it, regardless of whether you like it or not. For supporting the Israeli State was NEVER what scripture deemed to be equivalent to supporting ISRAEL as God/Yeshua defined it - and that is something one has to go to the Lord on.

say "To claim that God has somehow not yet fulfilled the land-promises, or that they actually came to fruition in 1948 alone, is to stretch the original prophetic word to Abraham beyond reason."

I don't dispute that the land-promises were fulfilled, and I certainly don't believe that they came to fruition in 1948 alone...can't think where you would get such an idea.

What I believe is that 1948 signified the beginning of the regathering of the Jewish people from the nations to their land of origin, regardless of their spiritual state, and that it is a banner lifted high for the nations to see and recognize.

I have to ask...who are the 'many who seem to forget' these things?

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That, nonetheless, has yet to be shown from scripture on multiple fronts - as believing (if one chooses) that 1948 signifies the beginning of the Regathering of the Jewish people isn't the same as showing the Jewish people have a right to use MILITARY Force to fight others out of the land and say "We're Jewish - so the land belongs to US ONLY!!!..

One can be for Israel and yet clearly not supportative of all policies or saying "Jews have dominant rights" since that's not how the Lord noted he wanted Israel to be in Yeshua. And for believers, that's is where the rubber hits the road. Israel was - and will always be meant to be a banner meant to represent for ALL the nations - Jew AND Gentile. Not just Jews

I am accutely aware of G-ds conditions..but I am also aware that He states very clearly in Ezekiel 36 that He will bring them back to the land, not on the basis of what they have done, or if they have repented. It was not for their sakes He has caused this to happen, but for His sake...it is a sovereign act of divine grace according to His plans and purposes which once again deeply involve the the Jewish people and the land of Israel, the place where He has chosen to manifest His purposes to the Church and to His people Israel.

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Noting where God will bring people back isn't the same as waging a campaing against any/all Palestinians or saying only Jews have the right to be in the Land - or advocating for the U.S and governments to take political stands supporting all actions done by Israel. Apples and oranges.

God had promised that He would bring the Israelites back to the Promised Land in the future:

Ezekiel 36 was also prophetic in how the Lord would establish things in FULL sweep - not over decades or with a nation DENYING Him, as he noted directly in Ezekiel 36:22-33 when saying that the new establishment of Israel as the Lord saw it was to be one where he'd give them a NEW Heart and New Spirit to be careful to obey his ordinances. And on that day, the Lord said he'd cleanse them - if reading the entire chapter. More was shared on the issue elsewhere in #189 #188. People often engage in misusing Scripture regarding the regathering such as Ezek 11:17, but not mentioning ‘conditional’ Scripture such as Ezek 20:34-38 when first the rebels that revolt are purged and will not enter Israel (eternal).

This is what others in Judaism have often noted when saying that the Israel the Lord estbalishes will be one founded IMMEDIATELY in righteousness/glorification of Him

But my dear brother...G-d is at work NOW, despite whether Jews are mostly secular, Atheists, Budhists or whatever...it is not going to stand in the way of what He has planned. Sure we all look forward to when the Heavenly Jerusalem will be revealed...but in the meantime G-d has not finished with earthly Jerusalem and we need to understand the significance of what is going on...not from a political perspective, but from looking at the fig-tree perspective. (Matt 24)

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God not being done with the physical Israel isn't the same as advocating POLTIICAL support for all things done by Israel. Again, that's a central difference which cannot be ignored when it comes to how Christ defined Israel - how the PROPHETS defined it ...and how they NEVER advocated for believers at any point to advocate for advancing the physical nation of Israel as if IT was where things ended and thus one sides solely with the governnment in whatever they say.

From a Olive Branch perspective, per Romans 11 - as shared before in-depth whenever the same conversation has come up throughout CF if you bring it up - from the discussion on the subject of Zionism/Israel - as seen in the thread on the Catholic forums entitled No Final Agreement Yet Between the Holy See and Israel ( here ) when it was debated on what it meant to really "support Israel" ....and to previous discussions here on the Eastern Orthodox boards when it came to claiming it's all the fault of the Palestinians and that Israeli State should be supported at all costs - despite what scripture says about the Israel of God, Physical Israel, the Remnant of Israel and the ways that Israel doesn't even treat all Jews equally with some groups treated as second class.

Yep realising that Jesus must physically return to Israel/Jerusalem poses quite a problem for many who actively pursue a different narrative.

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Again I don't know who you are talking about when you touch on these others who justify all actions to get the land...it isn't any of the Christian groups I am familiar with.

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Don't know where one is able to ignore the fact that trying to claim - as has been said - that Palestinians are not mistreated and saying "It's only the Muslims" rather than Israeli governmental actions - is an issue of justifying corrupt actions. The same goes for saying that supporting Israel means accepting the bunk narrative (as discussed before) that all things on support for Palestinians/Jews equally is a matter of hype.

Again, it is what it is.

Agreed...one of Israels faults as a nation IMO is their trust in the sword...but G-d has a way of stripping away what is transient and a source of pride.

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Nonetheless, for believers, it is essential that advocating ideologies that lead to more use of the sword on all sides be ceased. It does nothing to say that it's a fault of the nation to trust in the sword - and yet say nothing in regards to the issue of where force has been used wrongly against Palestinians in being kicked out, harmed and havign homes destoryed (just as Jews have) when saying "Well they were never displaced!!!

Gxg (G²);62640934 said:

Nonetheless, for believers, it is essential that advocating ideologies that lead to more use of the sword on all sides be ceased

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Continued from before..

Originally Posted by Zazal
Yes there have been a number of attempts to re-establish Israel and Jerusalem through the Crusades and later Napoleon etc...none succeeded, but in much the same way as Messiah came in the fulness of time, so the nation of Israel has been born again in G-ds timing, and the evidence that it is of G-d is that Jews from across the earth have gravitated towards it, much of it due to severe persecution.

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That still leaves out the issue of what the Lord said frequently when noting that He'd be true to His word to kick out/punish HIS people when/if they sought to establish themselves outside of Him and ignore His commands. That has happened often - and many in Judaism have wisely noted that just because something has the name "Israel" on it doesn't make it the Israel the Lord seeks to establish for all time.....for just as other versions of forced conquest failed, so it is EQUALLY possible that the same can happen with the Israeli State. Regardless of how long it may take and how comfortable others think the situation is in assuming that events happening DESPITE the actions of the Israeli Government must mean that God is working BECAUSE of the Israeli Government and will NEVER punish it severely again at some point.


Many have noted that is' more than possible for another scattering to occur - and from the perspective of the Lord, HIS Israel is already established in Yeshua while those in Physical Israel who trust in Him will become a part of God's Israel. It can easily be the case - if having a futurist mindset - where the nation in continued disbelief/rejection OF the Lord - will again suffer ANOTHER Holocaust and many Jews perish - with those who are left seeing how they set themselves up for destruction by seeking military power for establishing ISRAEL rather than Yeshua whom they denied and persecuted those Messianic Jews who trusted in Him. And in that time of turning to the Lord, "ALL Israel will be saved"...in the sense that All of those in Physical Israel who are actually left to survive alongside the REMNANT of ISrael.

On the same token, it could be the case if having a Partial Preterist mindset that many events people look to futuristically have already occurred ( more shared in ##49 50 ) - with the only thing left being the Return of Christ to establish His Kingdom - and that won't be good for Israel since the Lord made clear he'd punish ALL evil-doers. Israeli State is not exempt simply because of ancestry or any attempt at claiming "But you said the Land was OURS

And it could be the case that things get delayed even further if the Israeli State (not God's Israel) were to be destroyed and others had to go through another round of having EXILE for some centuries before truly choosing to look to Yeshua - with HIM establishing them as they gather again in FAITH in Him and then have the nations attack them - with those Jews all being followers of Yeshua/protected....and in that sense, the Lord will defend them and "All Israel will be SAVED" as Paul noted. You never know.

Israel has been quite harsh at times, done things it shouldn't have done, treated some people badly...but compared to what the nations around her have done to Jews and to their own people, she is a sweet virgin

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Death is death..and murder is murder. Trying to argue on the basis of saying "Well, it seems a lot less than others!!" is like saying that blacks are more innocent than whites historically because of how blacks didn't organize Jim Crow/Systematic terrorism via mob attacks/lynchings and discrimination for centuries like most whites did in the U.S. For when you have accounts of blacks harming others, it doesn't matter if they were considered a minority in a dominant culture.

God has the same mindset as well when it came to how he established things. The issue is addressing corruption wherever it occurs and making NO excuses for it - or attempts at minimizing it for what it was.

...and it is pretty hard to demonstrably love your neighbours when they hate you and want you dead and gone...

.so lets remember the nature of many of the modern Palestinian people that are so often painted as down-trodden innocents who only want a fair deal out of life...

when historically many of these Arab peoples have been the cause of violence and death.

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That, as said before, is one of the reasons why hate continues when it comes to propoganda comments assuming Jesus excuses others from loving because of the claim that all those opposed wish you gone. It ignores the fact that it was never the case that many in Israel wish the SAME thing for all others in camps they don't like. John Hagee and the Israelis/Jews supporting him in his goals to eradicate Iran as a "necessary evil" to "protect Israel" - despite the reality of Iranian Jews (in the line of Esther of Persia in scripture) who've protested.......and the same goes for assuming "Well all the Palestinians train their children to hate us!!!" - a flat falsehood seeing the extensive amount of others who are close friends with Jews and always trained their families to love others in all groups.

Golda Meir, if I'm not mistaken, was notriously racist toward Palestinian children. In an interview with the Sunday Times published on June 15, 1969, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said, "It is not as though there was a Palestinian people ... and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them ... they did not exist." (Also reported in the Washington Post, June 16, 1969). A few months earlier Meir (known as "Mother Israel") had asked rhetorically, "How can we return the held territories? There is nobody to return them to." (March 8, 1969). One of her more famous quotes was that "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us".

And for those who are Palestinian children or Palestinian Jews, I'm surprised to see how many often don't realize her hatred toward them. For more, one can go here or here/here/here.

For the many Palestinians who love their children and have NEVER encouraged violence at any point, I find it very sad to see what Golda said in regards to them....for in her comments, it's amazing to consider where she never mentioned how there've also been Jewish terrorists who sent their children to die just as other Palestinians did with their own--yet it's only one side that has more hatred? IMHO, it's like saying all people with movements such as the Nation of Islam (which demonizes whites) is reason enough for police brutality toward black children since other blacks are violent toward whites...never mind where whites were violent previously in the past toward blacks.


Bottom line is that it dishonors Christ when trying to exaggerate/make claims saying "Well all Palestinians are not innocent!!!" but blantantly supporting by default the mindset that all ISraelis are "more innocent" and therefore worth more preferential treatment rather than dealing with people. The same goes with flatly ignoring the extensive amount of Arab Christians who've never advocated violence to anyone - and the same with Non-believing Arabs who've worked with secular Jews in peace.

God said we're to seek peace with all men and be honorable (Hebrews 12:14) - and God said we are to love all. Period.

So how would you explain from a biblical perspective the fact that Israel has become a nation again (as G-d said) and that Jews are returning to the land again (as G-d said)...is this just some false man made miracle of the modern era...a crime against the godly indigenous Palestinians...a pale imitation of what G-ds word indicates....I'm intrigued by an alternative explanation?

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Already shared earlier - and no need with the exaggerations since no one was focusing on Palestinians alone. For there's mess on all sides in Israel, from mistreatment of other Jews in the land who are not Ashkenazi to human trafficking to aggression with other nations (not just Arab) and other issues of unrighteousness. As said before, you can have self-fulfilling prophesies and it's not an issue when it comes to trying to establish things from an earthly perspective just like the Hebrews did when it came to buiding the Temple/assuming it meant God's blessing just to have it or that "God gave it" when they had victories/success - and even that was not enough to hold back God's wrath when they rebelled. Reading back into events can be deadly - like many assuming that God MUST have founded the U.S because of all the success it has had.

Identifying what it means to be a "nation" is a big deal since many define it via politics (i.e having your own homeland, senate, etc.) - but even the Patriarch's own were called a "nation" even when they were nomadic..even having others abroad. For nation is also in the sense of representation. And that's where many get tripped up since it doesn't take having a POLITICAL state to have a "nation" in the Biblical sense. ...as the Lord has often seen it differently.

By the way bro Hagee doesn't have the monopoly on supporting Israel...and I for one do not endorse his theology as a whole, nor share his agenda.

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Sadly,Bruh... even with that said, you already advocated much of what he (and others similar in mindset not affiliated with him) said when again not being able to resist saying "It's all the Palestinians fault!!!" and "Palestinaisn don't have a right to be in the land, but the Hebrews do!!"

Well the fact is that the people who now call themselves Palestinians, never owned a country and were largely small scattered groups of Arabs dotted throughout Palestine...they would call themselves Arabs or Southern Syrians, never Palestinians...that was Arafats doing around 1964 as part of political expediency.

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Again, sorry - but that's propoganda that has been debunked numerous times - especially by Arab Jews and other Jews who lived in the land with strong ties to it.

This is what was noted earlier when it comes to the fact that one speaks out of both sides of the mouth with saying one doesn't support Hagee and yet offering the same argumentation that is done by them in trying to paint all Palestinians as not being a part of the land - and trying to say "Well, they're just Arabs!!.

I believe that when Israel became a country again, those that had lived there should have been embraced as strangers/aliens and given equal rights...some were, some weren't, but I hope Israel is learning and I recognize it is not easy, especially with the potential for a 5th column in their midst.

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Sadly, so long as propoganda exists, you'll always see mistreament - paticularly when it's assumed anyone who is PAlestinian cannot be Jewish as well or that they don't have ties to the land just as the European Jews who immigrated over after the Holocaust - with those groups also being mixed over the centuries and other Jews questioning their authenticity.

On a less contentious note, it is my hope that many Arabs in Israel turn to the Jewish Messiah, and that their genuine faith and change of attitude provokes their Jewish neighbours to seek for themselves the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...

Will it happen? I don't know...but I don't believe in a political peace, only peace through the Prince of Peace. I think that there is a lot of heartache ahead for Israel, and especially for the nations that seek her destruction...but I also believe there is something beautiful in the making that will speak of the glory of G-d and touch the hearts of many....both Jew and Gentile

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There are already many Arabs turning to Yeshua and many have been following him for centuries. One has to avoid looking at where that occurs - or choosing to forget when it's brought up - in order to say otherwise. There's an excellent read on the issue which may be a blessing, as one can go online and research it under the name of "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's Prophetic Plan for Ishmael's Line.





Its by Tony Maalouf and its a good read as well as a compelling call for Christians to rethink the role of Arabs and also descendents of Abraham and recipients of his blessing. In Dr. Tony Maalouf's book, he starts his discussion by noting that before the modern era, Jews and Arabs lived side by side in harmony for centuries. In reality, conflict between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael has been the exception rather than the rule.

Yeshua is the focus and the answer for Jew and Gentile alike....and he is the one who gives true victory.

Dorothea said:

Our top priority should be supporting our Christian brethren there and praying for peace for all in the region.

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Agreed - and well said.

There's nothing wrong with supporting Israel - but true support comes with prayer/intercession and right living. Not by demonizing people in any camp or only speaking for one side in any given issue....be it Palestinians or Jews. God holds believers to higher standards....

In regards to the OP, it is imperative that followers of the Lord understand what it means to support Israel - as the Lord has called us to (Psalm 122 on "Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem"). And believers don't need a Zionism that is based on supporting any and all aspects of Israel since many things need to be called out - but rather a Zionism that trys to find ways to make a more sustainable/fair state. From the perspective of a Jewish believer who was apart of Eastern Catholicism and yet a Zionist with some good considerations for both Palestinians and Jews:

• Why I Am a Zionist | The Groom's Family
• P.S. Why I Am a Zionist | The Groom's Family
• Jewish Identity I: The Zionists and The Millet | The Groom's Family

There are, of course, negative/horrible forms of Christian Zionism - and addressing the issue would make a world of difference on the matter in light of how much it influences political decisions and arguing for policies against the Palestinians in the name of supporting the Jewish people, as if you have to curse an Arab in order to bless a Jew or acting as if any violation of human rights toward another people is justified as long as it's done to protect Jewish people. I'm thankful for others addressing those within Evangelical culture addressing the errors of others who are literally trying to justify/shape dangerous mindsets that allow for mess to be done in Israel.


It is interesting to consider the way that there've been MANY versions others have set up with a "political Israel" - even as it concerns the U.S since many, Jew and Gentile alike, once felt the U.S was truly the NEW Israel and advocated such on the basis of opportunity/being welcomed and able to prosper. Others disagreed, of course....but it is a trip to see how many Jews felt they were at home where they were and that a "homeland" wasn't about being physically in the territory of Israel. A member of the House of Lords once asked Chaim Weizmann, "Why do you Jews insist on Palestine when there are so many undeveloped countries you could settle in more conveniently? Weizmann responded: "That is like my asking you why you drove twenty miles to see your mother last Sunday when there are so many old ladies living on your street."
Many options were considered for other "Homelands" for the Jews - Madagascar, Japan, Grand Island, Guyana, Uganda, Argentina, etc.

• The Alienation of a Homeland: How Palestine Became Israel
  [*]Israel Is Not the Homeland of American Jews - Article Details
  [*]America redefines Zionism: The Diaspora as Jewish homeland
• Jewish State vs Jewish Homeland | The Third Way: Finding Balance

Others Jews have noted how it must be made clear that Americans of the Jewish faith are Americans, that Israel, however sympathetic to it many may be, is not their homeland. And to the extent that the Israeli government sought to speak of American Jews as, in effect, Israelis “in exile,” - or doing the same with any other Jewish group which did not see the Israeli State as "Israel"/"the homeland ordained by God, they are interfering in the domestic affairs of the respective nations others lived in. Many support their Jewish brethern - but they also don't automatically go for being Pro-Israeli State or Pro-Zionist as it concerns Political Zionism as it is today.

Although I can understand others who get excited over 1948 and believe that the modern state of Israel was born, there are a lot of legitimate factors on why it can be considered that this is not the restoration of Israel, for several reasons.

1. Something many should consider is that the prophecies of Israel’s regathering are quoted in the New Testament by the apostles and are said to be fulfilled in Christ through the gospel. Compare: Hosea 1:9, 10; 2:23; with Romans 9:25, 26; 1 Peter 2:9; Isaiah 10:20–23 with Romans 9:27, 28
2. Many cite Jeremiah 31:10, as proof that God would protect Israel from those who would attack them and seek to destroy them...but others overlooked the fact that God promised that Israel would never be attacked or have their land threatened on any of the three annual feast days. (Exod. 34:23) - and yet, Israel was attacked on Yom Kippur in 1973. In Scripture, each time ancient Israel was attacked on a feast day, it was proof that Israel had broken the covenant. Don K. Preston of Preterist Research Institute in Israel 1948, Countdown to Nowhere, argues that Josephus (first century Jewish Historian and other Jewish sources) cite that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem during the feast of Pentecost in 586 BC., (p. 26). Preston also points out that according to Josephus, an eyewitness of the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem took place during Pentecost, one of Israel’s three special feast days for disobedience to the covenant, Matthew 23–24). Furthermore, modern Israel was attacked on the Passover on 3/27/2002. ..and again, each time in Biblical History, Israel is attacked on the feast days for disobedience to to the covenant. Consequently, rather than proving Israel’s protection, an attack on the feast days proves that God is in disfavor with God.

All of those things I find to be highly interesting...

Did Isaiah 66:8 predict the establishment of the modern State of Israel and was May 14, 1948, the “greatest moment in prophetic history of the twentieth century”? Isaiah’s prophecy states: “Who has heard of a thing like this? Who has seen things like these? Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day? Or will a nation be born at one time? For Zion has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons.” (Isaiah 66:8)

The verse is clearly foretelling the sudden birth of an entire nation, as if in a single day. But who would cause this birth? Well, the next verse gives a clue: “‘As for me, shall I cause the breaking through and not cause the giving birth?’ says Jehovah. ‘Or am I causing a giving birth and do I actually cause a shutting up?’ your God has said.” The Lord made clear that the dramatic birth of the nation would be his doing.

And yet, Modern Israel is governed as a secular democracy that officially makes no claim to rely on the God of the Bible. Modern Israel’s secular attitude contrasts sharply with the situation in 537 B.C.E. Previously, the nation of Israel was indeed ‘reborn’ as if in a day after being devastated and depopulated by the Babylonians 70 years earlier. At that time, Isaiah 66:8 was strikingly fulfilled when the Persian conqueror of Babylon, Cyrus the Great, authorized the return of the Jews to their homeland.—Ezra 1:2.

The Persian King Cyrus recognized the Lord's hand in the matter in 537 B.C.E., and those who returned to Jerusalem did so for the express purpose of restoring the worship of God and rebuilding his temple. The modern State of Israel has never officially declared any such desire or intention.

There are so many differing views in existence - and personally, as said before, I tend to see a lot more substance in what's present in partial preterism when it comes to Israel. Gary Demar had an excellent presentation on the issue..in the event you've not heard of him before (more here, here, here , here , here, here, here, here, here and here).

Understanding differing views and Knowing that those who are truly God's people/Israel are in Christ doesn't mean that one shouldn't fight practically for peace in the Israeli State ....for even in the U,S, others claimed in the name of "Manifest Destiny" theology (evil as that and FreeMasonry was, #24 #75 /#111 ) - and that the U.S was God's "New Israel" and that Native Americans were the Cannanites who needed to be eradicated/subjected with other groups all over being in the same camp. It is horrible what went down and what was justified - but it doesn't mean Native Americans today don't try to work with the system of government after the fact..and so the same remains for the Israeli State.

Personally, whereas many think of regathering in the sense of everyone of the 12 tribes present in Jerusalem/located in ONE area (like one big circle in Israel) and the ISRAELI State having to be central for it, I agree with others who see it in the sense of the regathering already happening - with the Circle of 12 tribes being something that goes AROUND THE WORLD in their Faith in YESHUA/BEING a part of HIS body (I Corinthians 12) - and thus, indicating that there can be a unification/regathering without every single Jewish person having to return to Israel/be centralized there.


Biblical Zionism was always meant to be about Palestinians, Gentiles and Jews choosing to wash each others feet in the name of reconcilliation/forgiveness and realizing that both sides had serious sins to atone for - and remembering the struggles both sides go through, be it with the things the Church at Gaza experiences....or the ways Arabs/Jews have fought together for peace.

Crandaddy said:

Let them go after the terrorists then, but the Israeli segregationist policies have to go.

Imagine if everyone of a certain minority group were prohibited from walking on certain streets here in America just because only a few members of that group had committed terrorist acts. Do you think we'd put up with that?

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Israel's activities or her policies might be encouraging the violence?

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We have done it before. But its a different situation over there anyway. Imagine if Canadians hated Americans and sent suicide bombers over the border to kill innocent people, would we let Canadians walk our streets? No. If you were living in Israel you might think differently.

Adaephon said:

Ah, I see you've made the racism come boiling out of the woodwork.

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How on Earth is it racism saying that someone claiming to be a descendant of the biblical Tabitha is full of manure?
Is it racism, too, if you don't believe it if I claim to be a descendant of Canute the Great, and therefore have a legitimate claim to the throne of England?

Crandaddy said:

Let's face it, Israel is an apartheid state.
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In your twisted imagination, maybe. Nowhere else.

I am related to Alaric, the sacker or Rome, on my mothers side.
Or, at least her name is.
Ancestry.com only goes as far back as the church records can take them.

Its a cool fantasy though.

Aaaargh.

SolomonVII said:

When Jewish neighbourhoods can be built on Palestinian lands, without the necessity of becoming armed camps, then Palestinians will be ready for their own state, but not before.

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If you're talking about Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, those are illegal under international law. Imagine if some other country were to invade yours, start bulldozing down the homes of your native countrymen, and establish their own settlements in their place. I think you'd be pretty upset, and you'd have a right to be.

Eseven said:

We have done it before.

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Since the Civil Rights Movement, you mean? When? And where?

But its a different situation over there anyway. Imagine if Canadians hated Americans and sent suicide bombers over the border to kill innocent people, would we let Canadians walk our streets? No.

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We're not slowly and methodically wiping Canada off the map with illegal settlements, either.

If you were living in Israel you might think differently.

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I have no intention of moving to Israel, but if I were to move there, I certainly wouldn't move to one of those illegal settlements.

ChristOurCaptain said:

How on Earth is it racism saying that someone claiming to be a descendant of the biblical Tabitha is full of manure?
Is it racism, too, if you don't believe it if I claim to be a descendant of Canute the Great, and therefore have a legitimate claim to the throne of England?

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You don't know if his claim is true or not. And even if it's not, that doesn't necessarily make him a liar. Maybe he's honestly mistaken. Maybe his family is. You don't know for sure. You can't know for sure. And so it's not your place to accuse him of lying.

In your twisted imagination, maybe. Nowhere else.

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In my twisted imagination? How ironic.

Crandaddy said:

If you're talking about Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, those are illegal under international law. Imagine if some other country were to invade yours, start bulldozing down the homes of your native countrymen, and establish their own settlements in their place. I think you'd be pretty upset, and you'd have a right to be.



Since the Civil Rights Movement, you mean? When? And where?

We're not slowly and methodically wiping Canada off the map with illegal settlements, either.

I have no intention of moving to Israel, but if I were to move there, I certainly wouldn't move to one of those illegal settlements.



You don't know if his claim is true or not. And even if it's not, that doesn't necessarily make him a liar. Maybe he's honestly mistaken. Maybe his family is. You don't know for sure. You can't know for sure. And so it's not your place to accuse him of lying.

In my twisted imagination? How ironic.

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Many of your claims are based solely on your opinion that has been shaped and misguided by propaganda

Crandaddy said:

Let's face it, Israel is an apartheid state.
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Apartheid state describes South Africa racial politics. It cannot describe a country where Arabs, Muslims and Christians are offered full citizenship along with Jews.

The walls and the checkpoints get put up and reinforced as a result of the intifada.
It has nothing to do with apartheid racism.

The insistence of Christians that Jews not be allowed to defend themselves, in my mind, is based on misguided theology, rather than humanitarian concerns.

Crandaddy said:

You don't know if his claim is true or not.

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You don't know if my claim to be related to Canute the Great is true or not.