Why so negative?

JoyToTheWhirled said:

I can't really get my head around the opposition to the idea that God wants us to prosper in every area of our lives. What is it about the idea that offends people so much? Genuine question.

Click to expand...

Some of it probably arises from the over emphasis on material gain, and a mis-use of the principle of sowing and reaping (converting it into a magical formula)...coupled with the overt opulence enjoyed by many who promote some of these teachings.

It's really unbiblical NOT to believe in prosperity! How can we help others if we aren't blessed? How can we give to others if we don't have enough? How can we part of the solution when we are part of the problem?

To me, it is a false humility that says "I don't need to be wealthy, I just need a little bit for me and my family". What about praying instead, "Thank You God that we have all we need AND more so we are equipped for every good work!" (2 Cor 9:8) or "I may only need $2,000/mo but I will pray and expect $8,000/mo so I can give the excess to the work of the Lord!"

People put so many limits on God out of false beliefs and pretense.

Financial wealth, physical health and the other manifestations we see are only by-products of prosperity. One of the problems we have is ignorance of the Word which can cause anger, frustration and confusion. Then you have ignorance of a true relationship with the Father which causes an identity crisis. These are just a couple of the many problems people have with prosperity and other issues with sound biblical truths.

As far as prosperity and by-products. Let's say you have a river at flood stage for example. The river uproots trees, cars, houses, bicycles and all sorts of things. When the river goes down, you have all this stuff in your yard... all these things we call debris. The debris is a by-product of the river. So in this scenario the river would be the prosperity and the things would be the by-product (the debris). The river would be the anointing... the Zoe Life of God... the river. The debris would be financial wealth, physical health and etc. (by-products).

Zazal said:

Some of it probably arises from the over emphasis on material gain, and a mis-use of the principle of sowing and reaping (converting it into a magical formula)...coupled with the overt opulence enjoyed by many who promote some of these teachings.

Click to expand...

So true.

It is also fueled by sites that feed out words and phrases such as "magical formula." Too many anti-WoF folks are tossing out idea that simply are not true of this movement, and the unsuspecting public eats it up and regurgitates it back out as if it were truth. So a lot of misconception becomes what people think about prosperity and the teachers of prosperity. And they never spend a moment simply looking into the truth of the matter.

JoyToTheWhirled said:

I can't really get my head around the opposition to the idea that God wants us to prosper in every area of our lives. What is it about the idea that offends people so much? Genuine question.

Click to expand...

Methinks it's plain old jealousy. It's plain biblical truth that God is love, and that He genuinely wants what is best for us. Right now, I am reminded of a problem that crossed my path last year. A leaky water pipe caused close to a million litres of water to go to waste - all for my account, that is. Rather than going "Why Lord?", I asked Him, very nicely, for help. So, a few weeks after the $2000 bill arrived, so did a handsome income tax rebate - enough to pay the initial amount required. Soon after, an attractive job offer came - with a 23% pay hike. People tend to blame the Lord when things go south - instead of just humbly asking for help and guidance.

ABlessedMan said:

So true.

It is also fueled by sites that feed out words and phrases such as "magical formula." Too many anti-WoF folks are tossing out idea that simply are not true of this movement, and the unsuspecting public eats it up and regurgitates it back out as if it were truth. So a lot of misconception becomes what people think about prosperity and the teachers of prosperity. And they never spend a moment simply looking into the truth of the matter.

Click to expand...

Er...just so you know bro, the word 'magical formula' came entirely from my own thinking process and experiences and not from scouring anti-WoF sites...obviously there is a resonance of sorts.

As I have stated before, I belong to a WoF community, our shelves are plastered with Copeland magazines and virtually every book in our Christian bookshop is from WoF teachers.

I don't personally have misconceptions about some things, I have very natural misgivings, and am always trying to better understand aspects of biblical teachings that do not gel with my spirit....I look into the truth of the matter on these things and spend hours and hours comparing Scripture to Scripture and trying to see why I have misgivings on some things that are taught.

So now in response to the OP I am freely giving my 2cts (for a $1.00 )

Zazal said:

Er...just so you know bro, the word 'magical formula' came entirely from my own thinking process and experiences and not from scouring anti-WoF sites...obviously there is a resonance of sorts.

Click to expand...

Oh, I'm not saying you got it from anywhere, but it is a phrase leveled at the WoF on other forum sites that are very much less sympathetic toward us than CF. To be clear, I agree with your post and just added a thought. Apologies if it came over as anything different.

Zazal said:

I don't personally have misconceptions about some things, I have very natural misgivings, and am always trying to better understand aspects of biblical teachings that do not gel with my spirit....I look into the truth of the matter on these things and spend hours and hours comparing Scripture to Scripture and trying to see why I have misgivings on some things that are taught.

Click to expand...

Well, this is a great place to talk them out. Start a thread. Love to learn.

ABlessedMan said:

Oh, I'm not saying you got it from anywhere, but it is a phrase leveled at the WoF on other forum sites that are very much less sympathetic toward us than CF. To be clear, I agree with your post and just added a thought. Apologies if it came over as anything different.


Well, this is a great place to talk them out. Start a thread. Love to learn.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply bro...I might talk them over here some time soon, but I rather suspect they have been done to death, and I don't want to fellowship just based on my personal misgivings...I am working through things back at my own fellowship.

If I think it is expedient or helpful I might do as you ask, I'm a very laid back sort of chap, and it should be pretty easy and unthreatening to engage me...I try to wear my heart on my sleeve and always be upfront and honest in what blesses me and what disturbs me regarding certain issues....I think as Believers when we can confront things openly and honestly with kindness, it really helps our perception and understanding of the ways of G-d because ultimately we are thrown back onto Scripture and have to grasp what lies before our eyes...not always easy.

Best regards. Zazal

JoyToTheWhirled said:

I must say, there are some teachers who seem to treat God like a slot machine in their gimmicky teachings. But others talk in much more balanced terms. It's all about having your head screwed on and testing things against the Word. Thanks everyone for answering

Click to expand...

Yup I agree

Its the same in any congregation or tradition, WoF has certain characteristics that are largely fronted by the same regulars who get a lot of air-time...hence 'prosperity teaching' will be one of a number of 'issues'.

If you go to fellowship with the Catholics, you are immediately aware that they have certain doctrines that they promote that are hard to ingest...these again are 'issues'...and don't mention the Messianics...everyone thinks we want to put people under Mosaic Law..and so on and so forth.

Zazal said:

Thanks for the reply bro...I might talk them over here some time soon, but I rather suspect they have been done to death, and I don't want to fellowship just based on my personal misgivings...I am working through things back at my own fellowship.

Click to expand...

This is cool, if it is how the Lord leads you to deal with it.

One thing to consider in prayer: your "personal misgivings" may also be the personal misgivings of about a dozen other people who are simply too shy to post a single word -- they'd love to hear some answers too.

But pray about it....do as the Lord leads.

OldDogDiver said:

It's really unbiblical NOT to believe in prosperity! How can we help others if we aren't blessed? How can we give to others if we don't have enough? How can we part of the solution when we are part of the problem?

To me, it is a false humility that says "I don't need to be wealthy, I just need a little bit for me and my family". What about praying instead, "Thank You God that we have all we need AND more so we are equipped for every good work!" (2 Cor 9:8) or "I may only need $2,000/mo but I will pray and expect $8,000/mo so I can give the excess to the work of the Lord!"

People put so many limits on God out of false beliefs and pretense.

Click to expand...

Thank you!!
And I might add this false humility is just as covetous as greed it is still obsessing over money.

What bugs me is the demonizing of the term name it and claim it.
The holy poor have taken a few circus cult money people who use the phrase and labeled any one who accepts Gods promise as that grab it and blab it bunch.

There is nothing wrong with the phrase,but even W.O.F teachers do not use it.

The term does not need to apply to gain and does not mean to gain is Godly

All the promises of God are yes and amen,of course they are God does not change.
Example: Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 28:22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

This is just one curse we are redeemed from through Christ.
So if I start to get sick,I name the affliction,then I claim the blessing of Christ I am free from the curse it has no right to dwell in my body!

Its all about Satan spreading doubt in Gods word,and preaching it right out of pulpits everywhere.
I do not care if some jerk ripped off his followers.

I will name it and claim it every where there is need in my life.
Gods word has promised Spiritual ,Physical,and Financial prosperity for all in the body of Christ.

OK rant over God bless

P.S.

I am so fed up with C.A.R.M.s. or holy poor or who ever else crawled out of a cave telling me our faith is based on Incantaions,implying witchcraft.

When they do this they are insulting Gods word.

Same as the religous crowds who said Christ performed miracles by Satan.

We are a Bible based fellowship and our critics need to check who is influencing them!
While they are staying sick broke and busted down.

If they would just read the Word and ignore the old broken passed down curses,they might just really understand whom the Son has set free is free indeed,no ifs buts or maybes

now faith said:

P.S.

I am so fed up with C.A.R.M.s. or holy poor or who ever else crawled out of a cave telling me our faith is based on Incantaions,implying witchcraft.

When they do this they are insulting Gods word.

Same as the religous crowds who said Christ performed miracles by Satan.

We are a Bible based fellowship and our critics need to check who is influencing them!
While they are staying sick broke and busted down.

If they would just read the Word and ignore the old broken passed down curses,they might just really understand whom the Son has set free is free indeed,no ifs buts or maybes

Click to expand...

Not everyone who criticises some of the theology and some of the main protagonists within the WoF movement are crass individuals with nothing better to do than shoot down peoples faith in flames for the sheer hell of it. Some are godly people who bring legitimate criticism out of a love for the Body...not to condemn or score points, but telling the truth in love.

It is natural to go on the defensive when a group one associates with comes under general attack...it is very human to close ranks and defend the cause tooth and claw. But ultimately we each have a relationship with G-d through the Holy Spirit, and need to be open enough to hear his voice despite our allegiances to any other groups or authority...He always comes first.

What I have learnt about deception in the Body over many years is that 'loyalty' to leaders/authority and to groups/movements can de-sensitize a persons spirit so that they mentally reject anything that goes against teachings they have been taught and whole-heartedly embraced. (Usually because they trust leadership and respect anointing).

Deception is disguised...it doesn't shout out it is coming, or wear clothes that stand out...it comes quietly, it blends in...but discernment is lacking in the Body today, and not many people recognise deception, even when the words and attitudes displayed by some leaders are contrary to Sound Doctrine or Christian Character...they seem reasonable, reassuring and practical, and they are even rooted in certain Scriptures making the disguise complete.

Zazal said:

Not everyone who criticises some of the theology and some of the main protagonists within the WoF movement are crass individuals with nothing better to do than shoot down peoples faith in flames for the sheer hell of it. Some are godly people who bring legitimate criticism out of a love for the Body...not to condemn or score points, but telling the truth in love.

It is natural to go on the defensive when a group one associates with comes under general attack...it is very human to close ranks and defend the cause tooth and claw. But ultimately we each have a relationship with G-d through the Holy Spirit, and need to be open enough to hear his voice despite our allegiances to any other groups or authority...He always comes first.

What I have learnt about deception in the Body over many years is that 'loyalty' to leaders/authority and to groups/movements can de-sensitize a persons spirit so that they mentally reject anything that goes against teachings they have been taught and whole-heartedly embraced. (Usually because they trust leadership and respect anointing).

Deception is disguised...it doesn't shout out it is coming, or wear clothes that stand out...it comes quietly, it blends in...but discernment is lacking in the Body today, and not many people recognise deception, even when the words and attitudes displayed by some leaders are contrary to Sound Doctrine or Christian Character...they seem reasonable, reassuring and practical, and they are even rooted in certain Scriptures making the disguise complete.

Click to expand...

I agree we are in the same body as other faiths,and each person has there own measure of faith.

Most in W.O.F.came out of other denominations,and have a mature background.
This is one reason it is considered a movement,I call it a fellowship as well.

It took Kenneth Hagin many years to come to this teaching.
He started as a Baptist Preacher,moved to full Gospel when he was gifted with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I fellowship with many denominations myself,and I understand why you may have misinterpreted the intent of my post,and the way I structured it could have been better.

I have listened to this incantation notion here and else where.
My irritation is with prayers from Gods Word being called witchcraft.

On the full Gospel side they have been accused for years for Tongues being Satanic.

God bless

Zazal said:

Not everyone who criticises some of the theology and some of the main protagonists within the WoF movement are crass individuals with nothing better to do than shoot down peoples faith in flames for the sheer hell of it. Some are godly people who bring legitimate criticism out of a love for the Body...not to condemn or score points, but telling the truth in love.

It is natural to go on the defensive when a group one associates with comes under general attack...it is very human to close ranks and defend the cause tooth and claw. But ultimately we each have a relationship with G-d through the Holy Spirit, and need to be open enough to hear his voice despite our allegiances to any other groups or authority...He always comes first.

What I have learnt about deception in the Body over many years is that 'loyalty' to leaders/authority and to groups/movements can de-sensitize a persons spirit so that they mentally reject anything that goes against teachings they have been taught and whole-heartedly embraced. (Usually because they trust leadership and respect anointing).

Deception is disguised...it doesn't shout out it is coming, or wear clothes that stand out...it comes quietly, it blends in...but discernment is lacking in the Body today, and not many people recognise deception, even when the words and attitudes displayed by some leaders are contrary to Sound Doctrine or Christian Character...they seem reasonable, reassuring and practical, and they are even rooted in certain Scriptures making the disguise complete.

Click to expand...

It goes beyond loyalty to a group or denomination.
Sometimes I'm OK your OK is not OK.

Our Lord to paraphrase said: Having a form of Godliness,but denying the power there of.

We have been given the greatest gift from God.
Grace,through Christ,we have eternal life.
We have been bought by the Blood of Christ and given a new covenant.

The Gospel given by Christ through The Holy Word is our only truth for today.
We must stand on the promises of Gods word all of them.

The new covenant is similar to the old in this way:
Under the old was the law,if a man broke one ordinance,he was guilty of breaking it all.

The New has our salvation,our grace and life,contained in the Living Word of God.
If we deny parts we deny all and call God a liar.

Its not about being zealous over a faith group,its about standing on every page and promises in Gods Word.

Hi Now Faith,

This is not a direct response to what you have written (which I appreciate), but a few more thoughts around the subject...I would also say that 'legitimate criticism' is not a negative response but a very positive response...governments and leadership should always be open to criticism, and so should Christian communities and Christian leaders, pastors teachers etc and the theology they expound.

(I sometimes wander if the gift of discernment falls into the 'legitimate criticism' bracket, because some people have a tendency and an ability to put their fingers on isssues that are either papered over or ignored, and like some journalists are not afraid of exposing the big-boys...just a thought.)

I don't think there is a single Christian community that has everything together in its theology and its application...and it is on realising this that to some extent we should be fore-armed and be able to recognise when error is creeping in...it is based on the biblical warnings that say there will be wolves amongst the flock.

As individuals Christians are particularly vulnerable because they have a born-again nature that is far more trusting than normal (thinking of my own back-ground) and yet we need to be as gentle as doves but wise as serpents.

I have heard good and bad within the WoF movement...sometimes I have really enjoyed and benefitted from a teaching on TV, at other times I have had to turn off the TV because it was so gross and I was ashamed of what I was hearing.

My concern is that the good is getting difficult to recognise because the bad stuff has been embraced by many with equal enthusiasm, and it is mostly these things that the rest of the Christian communities find unappetizing....while others just jump on the band-wagon and condemn WoF out of hand.

I suppose you could compare it to the Catholic faith. I like listening to good biblically based Catholic teaching, but when it wanders off into Mary this and Mary that I have to turn the TV or audio off, not because I don't respect Mary, but because the teaching is largely erroneous and is more about Catholic theology and a sentimental attachment to Mary, than it is about the gospel and sound doctrine that actually feeds the sheep.

One thing that does strike me that our Catholic and Orthodox brethren are right in pointing out, is that their traditions, dogmas and doctrines go waaaay back, and have been tested over centuries, while modern Christian communities have very little history, some movements being less than 50 years old, and therefore susceptible to infiltration and manipulation in ways that the Catholics and Orthodox communities are virtually immune to. They have other problems, but this history is a strength.

JoyToTheWhirled said:

I can't really get my head around the opposition to the idea that God wants us to prosper in every area of our lives. What is it about the idea that offends people so much? Genuine question.

Click to expand...

The devil hates the idea of a Christian that is committed to the Lord, not only in words but in deeds.

That means they would use their money to help advance and build the kingdom of God.

Unfortunately most Christians have not learned not to be jerked around by their feelings, thoughts and emotions.

Since the realm of thoughts is where the devil works he fights the idea of any prosperity by Christians by a constant and strong attack in the thought realm.

As most Christians are jerked around by their thoughts, which produce the feelings and emotions.

They then react against the idea of prosperity among other things such as healing from the fear the thoughts bring.