AFA's Fischer Calls for Kidnapping Children of LGBT Parents

Illuminaughty · Aug 15, 2012

I gave it to you. Our first obligation is to God rather than man.

The verse you referenced doesn't say anything about a person having an obligation to God to kidnap children so they won't be around gay people. You are just assuming this to be the case when your point to that scripture.

dies-l · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
People can rationalize away the Scriptures as much as they please, tickle their own ears in a sense. But they can't escape what it really says.

My sentiments exactly! That is exactly what you seem to be doing, and I am glad you can recognize that!

We must obey God rather than men.

Now, unless you are acknowledging that you are in agreement with me on this, you can show me in Scripture where God says something along the lines of "kidnap children who are raised by immoral people."

MachZer0 · Aug 15, 2012

dies-l said:
My sentiments exactly! That is exactly what you seem to be doing, and I am glad you can recognize that!

Now, unless you are acknowledging that you are in agreement with me on this, you can show me in Scripture where God says something along the lines of "kidnap children who are raised by immoral people."

Right here:

We must obey God rather than men

Halossellar · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
If you believe the disinformation comes from me, perhaps you could name the two parties, the couple, from whom the child was kidnapped. That would help. On the other hand, you could just admit that Fischer made no such advocation.

I sorry, you seem to have lost me there. Fisher was quoted as saying two inflammatory statements. Did he not say them? That's all I'm after. If you have proof he didn't say any such thing, let's see it.

And please keep in mind that I read the story of the kidnapping, I know the context of his statements. He still advocated kidnapping children in order to get them away from same sex couples did he not? I'm not sure what you're playing at, but please help me to understand.

RedPaddy · Aug 15, 2012

TLK Valentine said:
IOW, Christians want one set of laws for themselves, another set for us peons.

No, we want all to be Christians thus we'd only need one set.

dies-l · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Right here:

We must obey God rather than men

Wow! "We must obey God rather than men" means "kidnap children who are raised by immoral people"? Talk about rationalizing Scripture away as much as you please to tickle your ears. ^_^

Do you know what eisegesis is? That is what you are doing here.
If you weren't advocating such a deplorable act of wickedness, I would find your biblical interpretation quite amusing.

RedPaddy · Aug 15, 2012

Illuminaughty said:
I've never once seen someone here try to convert straight people to the homosexual "lifestyle". Only people calling for "lifestyle" conversion tend to be on the right. Defending gay people from being attacked and having their rights violated isn't the same thing as promoting. There is really no reason to promote it. Gay people will be gay and straight people will straight regardless.

As evidenced by the mother in this story, gay people do not always remain gay. :wave:

MachZer0 · Aug 15, 2012

dies-l said:
Wow! "We must obey God rather than men" means "kidnap children who are raised by immoral people"? Talk about rationalizing Scripture away as much as you please to tickle your ears.

Do you know what eisegesis is? That is what you are doing here.
If you weren't advocating such a deplorable act of wickedness, I would find your biblical interpretation quite amusing.

Eisegesis would come into play when you try to rationalize Scripture to mean something other than: We must obey God rather than men.

Provide us your best conclusion. should historical figures like Dietrich Bonhoeffer have obeyed men, rather than God?

dies-l · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Eisegesis would come into play when you try to rationalize Scripture to mean something other than: We must obey God rather than men.

And you are using that verse to support an action that disobeys both God and man. That would be eisegesis. How does that work out?

Provide us your best conclusion. should historical figures like Dietrich Bonhoeffer have obeyed men, rather than God?

Bonhoeffer, like the apostles in your biblical example, was faced with a genuine conflict between the two options. No one could fault him for following the apostles' example. Very different case than what is being discussed.

MachZer0 · Aug 15, 2012

dies-l said:
And you are using that verse to support an action that disobeys both God and man. That would be eisegesis. How does that work out?

Sorry, but I'm merely quoting the Scripture and taking it for what it says. Eisegesis would be to take the Scripture and explain why it doesn't really mean what it says. Only one of us has done that.

Bonhoeffer, like the apostles in your biblical example, was faced with a genuine conflict between the two options. No one could fault him for following the apostles' example. Very different case than what is being discussed.

OK, so now you're saying that "We must obey God rather than men" applies arbitrarily as you see fit?

dies-l · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Sorry, but I'm merely quoting the Scripture and taking it for what it says. Eisegesis would be to take the Scripture and explain why it doesn't really mean what it says. Only one of us has done that.
OK, so now you're saying that "We must obey God rather than men" applies arbitrarily as you see fit?

"Obey God rather than men" means "obey God rather than men".The first part "obey God" means if God tells you to do something, then do it. Would God tell someone to do something that flatly disobeys Scripture, especially if God had not provided clear direction in Scripture? No. Does Scripture endorse kidnapping children who are raised by immoral people? No. Therefore, we can say with certainty that God did not tell anyone to kidnap this child. Does God say that we should generally obey human authority? YES! Therefore, this is not a case of "obeying God rather than men." Rather, it is a case of disobeying both God and men. And, using "obey God" to mean "disobey God" is an extreme example of eisegesis.

This is a far cry from a situation where the governmental authority says do not teach the Gospel or where the governmental authority demands complicity in the murder of millions of people. I can point to Scripture that commands us to teach the Gospel. I can point to Scripture that proscribes murder. This is a case where the government says don't kidnap children just because you find the parent's moral choices to be questionable. I cannot find Scripture that commands or even endorses kidnapping. When you find that passage, please let me know, and I will change my position.

MachZer0 · Aug 15, 2012

dies-l said:
"Obey God rather than men" means "obey God rather than men".The first part "obey God" means if God tells you to do something, then do it. Would God tell someone to do something that flatly disobeys Scripture, especially if God had not provided clear direction in Scripture? No. Does Scripture endorse kidnapping children who are raised by immoral people? No. Therefore, we can say with certainty that God did not tell anyone to kidnap this child. Does God say that we should generally obey human authority? YES! Therefore, this is not a case of "obeying God rather than men." Rather, it is a case of disobeying both God and men. And, using "obey God" to mean "disobey God" is an extreme example of eisegesis.

This is a far cry from a situation where the governmental authority says do not teach the Gospel or where the governmental authority demands complicity in the murder of millions of people. I can point to Scripture that commands us to teach the Gospel. I can point to Scripture that proscribes murder. This is a case where the government says don't kidnap children just because you find the parent's moral choices to be questionable. I cannot find Scripture that commands or even endorses kidnapping. When you find that passage, please let me know, and I will change my position.

Now we are getting a better understanding of eisegesis.

dies-l · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Now we are getting a better understanding of eisegesis.

I am glad you are beginning to recognize how you are butchering the Scriptures to justify the evil thing that you are trying to justify.

MachZer0 · Aug 15, 2012

dies-l said:
I am glad you are beginning to recognize how you are butchering the Scriptures to justify the evil thing that you are trying to justify.

Butchering? I've only offered the Scripture and no explanation of it. I can't say the same for others

dies-l · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Butchering? I've only offered the Scripture and no explanation of it. I can't say the same for others

So, you were just providing Scripture for the sake of providing Scripture, not for making an argument? That makes sense, because I was really wondering what on Earth your chosen Scripture citation had to do with this discussion.

In that case, I would like to add Numbers 20:1 to the list of Bible verses that are irrelevant to the conversation: "In the first month the whole Israelite community arrived at the Desert of Zin,(A) and they stayed at Kadesh.(B) There Miriam(C) died and was buried."

I hope you find it as insightful as I did.

TLK Valentine · Aug 15, 2012

MachZer0 said:
Butchering? I've only offered the Scripture and no explanation of it. I can't say the same for others

Well, at least you're not trying to justify kidnapping with Scripture, then -- it'd be a hopeless case.

As a matter of fact, it's already a hopeless case:

Kenneth Miller trial: Jury delivers guilty verdict - Local News - Plattsburgh, NY - NBCNews.com

Miller was found guilty of aiding and abetting international parental kidnapping. . . Kenneth Miller faces a maximum of three years in prison. He is out on bail until his sentencing hearing, which has not been scheduled yet.

Only three years for helping a lesbian smuggle a child out of the country? I expect a suitable amount of outrage from the right.

RedPaddy · Aug 15, 2012

TLK Valentine said:
.... Only three years for helping a lesbian smuggle a child out of the country? I expect a suitable amount of outrage from the right.

Correction, you mistyped yet again, it's "former-lesbian" and it was not "a child" it was "her child". :wave:

Illuminaughty · Aug 15, 2012

You havent provided any evidence to back up the claim that one has a divine obligation to kidnap children to begin with. Without such an obligation the obey God rather than men verse wouldn't even come into play. You are asking people to buy into your assumption without presenting any evidence

RedPaddy · Aug 15, 2012

Illuminaughty said:
You havent provided any evidence to back up the claim that one has a divine obligation to kidnap children to begin with. Without such an obligation the obey God rather than men verse wouldn't even come into play. You are asking people to buy into your assumption without presenting any evidence

you've failed to present any evidence this claim was made by anyone. The presented convoluted reasoning failed to do this.

Illuminaughty · Aug 15, 2012

Redpaddy,

Ever hear of the term bisexual? Apparently it was within the range of possiblity for her to be sufficienly attracted to the opposite sex as well.

AFA's Fischer Calls for Kidnapping Children of LGBT Parents

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