CaliforniaSun
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Why do you think Jesus was silent on the issue of abortion?
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Why do you think Jesus was silent on the issue of abortion?
Metal Minister
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He wasn't actually.
Matthew 18:10 NIV
See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
Mark 10:14 NIV
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them " Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
There are quite a few verses pertaining to God's love of children. Like this one:
Psalm 127:3-5 NIV
Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate.
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!
David said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." He did not say that a fetus was shapen in iniquity and conceived in iniquity. David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that HE was conceived. David, not a blob of tissue, was conceived.
etc, etc, etc...
Many more points can be found here:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/abortion.html
May God Richly Bless You! MM
Matthew 18:10 NIV
See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
Mark 10:14 NIV
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them " Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
There are quite a few verses pertaining to God's love of children. Like this one:
Psalm 127:3-5 NIV
Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate.
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!
David said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." He did not say that a fetus was shapen in iniquity and conceived in iniquity. David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that HE was conceived. David, not a blob of tissue, was conceived.
etc, etc, etc...
Many more points can be found here:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/abortion.html
May God Richly Bless You! MM
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selfinflikted
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Instead of saying that my logic is flawed, please show how.
At least we can agree on that.
Like?
No, I'm just not using any flowery, emotional rhetoric as I normally don't when discussing this topic. Aside from that, that's exactly what a womb is for.
It depends on who needed it, honestly. If it was a friend, relative, or someone else that meant something to me, I would hardly hesitate. If it were a total stranger, I would have to consider it a bit more carefully, though, in the end, I would probably donate because I can, on occasion, display at least a modicum of empathy, which I know is contrary to the usual atheist stereotypes.
That's great, and if true, speaks worlds about humanity in general. But, again, this is beside the point. One shouldn't be compelled to do so.
I think you will find it extremely difficult to find someone, at least here on these boards, who is actually a "pro-abort." What we are is pro-choice. There is a difference, but I can hardly expect you to recognize it.
I think most of the general public sees a fetus as a human life. I'm not sure if the majority would consider them human beings or persons, which I know is central to the argument of some. For my position, it doesn't matter whether the fetus is considered a person or not. To me, this is an issue that deals greatly with bodily integrity and not being able to force someone to use their body against their will.
According to Wikipedia, fetus is derived from the Latin word fētus which translated means offspring, bringing forth, hatching of young.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus#cite_note-2
Though, nice emotional appeal.
When the fetus is viable outside the womb.
Please explain how you conclude this from my logic.
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selfinflikted
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CaliforniaSun
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I would have to agree with this MM. It seems like you're retrofitting verses to support your political agenda. I'm aware of the fact that Jesus never once is recorded (unfortunately he nor his disciples ever wrote anything down!) as condemning removing unborn fetuses from a woman's uterus. Moreover, he never adressed the destruction of potential human life every time a man [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] without a viable ovum in close proximity, including involuntary nocturnal emissions, or masturbation. Nor does he address the destruction of potential human life that occurs billions of times every twenty eight days with women. I'm curious why so many armchair christians rail against abortion when it clearly was a non-issue for Jesus.
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Dieselman
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Jesus failed to address the issue of space travel and whether it was a good thing. He never addressed the consumption of fossil fuels or the human genome. He was strangely silent about nuclear energy, though certainly He knew all these things would come about. In fact, I'm reasonably certain that he never stood in front of a Planned Parenthood center and wept for the destruction of all the lives that took place inside. Does this mean that we can't learn from His words and know the difference between right and wrong? If there is no sin in abortion, then why do so many feel guilty afterward that they invented an illness called Post Abortion Syndrome.
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who has not had an abortion. Other studies have found similar statistical significance between a history of abortion and suicide attempts among adults.
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selfinflikted said:
I did, several times
selfinflikted said:At least we can agree on that.
Like?
There's rarely only one match in a bone marrow transplant, and there are medications to help sustain someone who needs one. Again, this is talking of SUSTAINING a life, not taking one
selfinflikted said:
Sorry but "house a fetus" is another way to dehumanize the baby. Instead of "flowery" rhetoric, you're using dehumanizing rhetoric for the same net result. Swaying someone to not see the baby as alive and human
selfinflikted said:
That's the difference between you and I. Regardless of whether I knew them personally or not, I do not believe I would hesitate if it meant saving their life.
selfinflikted said:
Agreed. I would hope that humanity wouldn't need to be compelled to save a life
selfinflikted said:
There is no difference between pro-abortion or "pro-choice". If you are pro-choice you're condoning abortion
selfinflikted said:
Actions have consequences. The vast majority of abortions are those who simply couldn't be bothered to abstain from or practice safe sex. Either way, when does bodily integrity as you keep calling it trump the life of a person?
selfinflikted said:
Really? So "offspring" no longer means child or baby?
selfinflikted said:
Again, missing the point...
selfinflikted said:
....wow...just wow...do you post these things without thinking first? Is it too much trouble to think through?
May God Richly Bless You! MM
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Metal Minister
New Year, Still Old School!
selfinflikted said:
Can you see logic past the tip of your own nose? If God created or "knit us together" in the womb, would it not stand to reason that He considers it life? Now, taking into account that God specifically mentions we're not to kill, and He obviously sees His knitting us together as life, then where does God say "Eh, I put all that effort into creating that life, but no problem, go ahead and kill it." Seriously? Jesus also didn't mention that we should keep breathing on a regular basis, so should we stop because He didn't mention it specifically? He didn't mention surgery of any kind, so does that mean we shouldn't have life saving surgery? No. God gave us enough sense to see what He said and understand what is being said....
May God Richly Bless You! MM
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ThinkFreeDom
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How do you feel about the millions of spontaneous abortions that happen every year? If God is so against the death of foetuses why does he allow that to happen?
HopeExchange.com:
HopeExchange.com:
- There are about 4.4 million confirmed pregnancies in the U.S. every year.
- 900,000 to 1 million of those end in pregnancy losses EVERY year.
- More than 500,000 pregnancies each year end in miscarriage (occurring during the first 20 weeks).
- Approximately 26,000 end in stillbirth (considered stillbirth after 20 weeks)
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selfinflikted
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Then you're going to have to show me where, because I've missed it.
If the person doesn't receive a transplant, they will die. Medication can, perhaps in some cases, prolong the inevitable, but the only thing that will save the life is the transplant.
A fetus is not the same thing as a baby.
In my opinion, a fetus is:
1) Not a baby, nor a child. It is a fetus.
2) Human.
3) Alive.
I hope this clears up any misconceptions you might have about my opinions on a fetus.
That's your choice. Obviously, this makes you a better person than me. Have a cookie.
I would hope that humanity is never compelled to save a life. (in the way this scenario plays out)
And I'm telling you there is. You know it, I know you know it, so stop pretending. You are only trying to demonize those on my side of the fence by labelling us "pro-aborts" (very reminiscent of a certain poster who I've not seen around for a while). It's simply not true, and most of us can see the game you're playing.
That is not true. If I were a woman and pregnant, unless there were some serious complications with either my own health or the health of the fetus, I probably wouldn't have an abortion. I wouldn't want to take that choice away from any other woman though, which is exactly what you're talking about doing. I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion.
And I don't particularly care for abortion as birth control. More and better sex education in schools (and at home!) and readily available birth control and condoms will go a long way to stave off this side of the abortion debate. Unfortunately, many people in your camp are against condoms, birth control, and sex education in favor of teaching abstinence only. We can see that clearly, that doesn't work.
I'm not sure I'm understanding this question, as I've already made my position perfectly clear.
Nope. I am my parents offspring. I'm also about to be 33 years old. I am neither a baby or a child.
I will take this as a concession, since you won't give an explanation.
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selfinflikted
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How many times do I have to keep repeating that the fact that a fetus is alive (i.e. life) is not a matter of contention.
What doesn't make sense, however, is if god takes the time to "knit us together" in the womb, then why does he then turn right around and allow more than half (I think the number is, if not the number is huge, regardless) of fertilized eggs to spontaneously abort through natural means?
Yet, he felt it necessary to point out how and when not to cut your hair, what kind of fabrics we can and cannot wear, etc etc. 'Scuse me if I'm not buying it.
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Metal Minister
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ThinkFreeDom said:
This is all the result of humanity's fall in the garden. Death reigns for now until Jesus returns.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html/
http://www.numberofabortions.com/
All this with a rough average of 1.21 million abortions per year...
(As an aside, many of those pregnancy "losses" are from abortions. The CDC is notoriously poor at counting those from what they are)
May God Richly Bless You! MM
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You do realize, by your logic, God knits together all these human lives and kills the significant majority of them, right?
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This is why I find Christian claims about the divinity of Jesus so dubious. He was allegedly a god in human form who had in his possession complete knowledge of the workings of the universe and a great love for humanity yet he left them to suffer for thousands of years without antibiotics, vaccinations, germ theory, artificial fertilizers, improved strains of wheat and on and on.
Had he known the future it would have made sense for him to make clear statements about things that would become great moral debates later on.
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Metal Minister
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selfinflikted said:
Ok, so why is it ok to take that life? If you believe it is alive, why is it ok to kill it?
selfinflikted said:
No. The love and teachings of Christ helped me to see this. Before I became a Christian, I was at best agnostic, and very cynical. Much like it appears you are.( I may be wrong, so please let me know if I am)
selfinflikted said:
I also don't think anyone should be compelled to save a life in the bone marrow scenario, but humanity should always err on the side of life.
selfinflikted said:
First, if you're insinuating I'm also another poster, sorry. I've only ever posted here as Metal Minister. Secondly, please show me the difference. If you saw someone about to commit suicide, would call the police, or try to stop them? If not then you would be condoning their suicide. It's this extreme apathy that those who are "pro-choice" are trying to desperately to defend. This is a cut and dry issue. Either you are ok with the practice of abortion, or you are not. There is no middle ground...
selfinflikted said:
Please see my reply above
selfinflikted said:
On this you and I totally agree.
selfinflikted said:
Ah, but you are your parents child, and according to your own definition, have been since conception.
selfinflikted said:
Not a concession, but if you'd pay attention, you'd see the numerous times I've shown you...
Now, let's break this down to the main difference we have, because I honestly don't have time to respond to these walls of text. I believe that abortion should only be an option when the life of the mother is directly placed in immediate jeopardy. You believe that abortion should be fine for a woman's "bodily integrity". Is this the integrity you're talking about?
http://afterabortion.org/2011/abort...chological-complications-related-to-abortion/
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/abortion-after-effects.html
May God Richly Bless You! MM
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Trogool said:
Please see my reply to ThinkFreeDom
May God Richly Bless You! MM
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Dave Ellis
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Something to ponder:
If a woman suffers a miscarriage or a spontaneous abortion.... If the Fetus is indeed a person, then the woman is guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
Aside from that, if we were to make abortion illegal, what do the anti-abortion types feel should be the punishment if a woman went and got an abortion anyway?
If a woman suffers a miscarriage or a spontaneous abortion.... If the Fetus is indeed a person, then the woman is guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
Aside from that, if we were to make abortion illegal, what do the anti-abortion types feel should be the punishment if a woman went and got an abortion anyway?
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Metal Minister
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CaliforniaSun said:
How is that bigotry? Is it not what happens in an abortion clinic? Are not "fetuses" killed? I feel deeply for those women who are placed in an impossible situation, but it is still accurate to say they are killing the "fetus"...
May God Richly Bless You! MM
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Becuase of insensitive bogotry like this:
Isn't that sort of protest illegal as potentially endangering someone?
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