God Prefers Kind Atheists Over Hateful Christians

I am not sure prefer is a good choice of words but I would say he approves of kind atheists more.

The bible teaches that God has little tolerance for an absence of love in Christians, God will reach out to someone who simply doesn't believe, someone who knows him and doesn't love is a different matter and God has demonstrated his lack of tolerance for that.

RomanSoldier said:

True or not? What do you think?

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I'd poke my head into such a church, to say thanks. And I can't speak for any gods which may or may not exist, but if I was a god, it would be true for me.

biblically it doesn't matter, they're both excluded from entering the kingdom of heaven

God prefers kindness to hatred.

God prefers believers to atheists.

What happens when you mix up the adjectives? Well, I am guessing that a hateful believer taints Christianity, and thus it is a greater burden. A kind atheist is alright, overall, but is missing a key component in their life...

But overall it doesn't matter that much, as Peggy Sue said.

RomanSoldier said:

True or not? What do you think?

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False.

Jesus taught that God's Law hangs on love for God and neighbour as oneself. That's the underlying principle behind laws like "Thou shalt nor murder", and is why Jesus could expand on those laws to include calling your brother a fool or hating your neighbour, etc. Love for God and neighbour is the spirit of his law.

St James also taught that breaking God's Law on one point makes one accountable for breaking the whole lot. This means, if you hate your brother you in effect also despise God, or if you despise God you cannot really love your brother. You can't have one without the other.

So I do not see how you could argue that God prefers love for God but not neighbour, over love for neighbour but not God, or vice-versa. That's like asking which form of sin God prefers. They by definition must go together.


Furthermore, the question presumes there is such a thing as a hateful Christian. I would not grant this presumption in light of something the Bible teaches about Christians:




We are not free to just define Christian however we like. There are Biblical descriptions that differentiate Christians from non-Christians, which means that if a person is not matching criteria shown for Christians, then why should they be considered as one?

peggy sue said:

biblically it doesn't matter, they're both excluded from entering the kingdom of heaven

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Very true. Both the unloving and the atheist have no place with God. When you deny God how can you know love. We love because God because he first loved us. So the atheist is denying the existence of God and think that God still PREFERS HIM to the unloving Christian. The difference between the Christian and the Atheist is that the Christian can go to God and seek forgiveness and make amends. BUT the atheist does not even acknowledge there is a God. His kindness means nothing.

wiremu.white

I personally think you need to consider other peoples ability to understand you as highly as you consider your preferred style of candor and communication... but that's just me and off topic.

Consider Revelations 1 and 2 and how God spoke to existent churches who had problems, some of those problems were love, God said they had to correct them, not that they were altogether lost.

Also Paul edified the churches to love, he was not under the impression that Christians could not act without love.

Whether or not "it matters" isn't the question, neither is it an answer to the question.

briareos said:

wiremu.white

I personally think you need to consider other peoples ability to understand you as highly as you consider your preferred style of candor and communication... but that's just me and off topic.

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I try to be precise in what I say, so that people don't misunderstand my intentions.

What specific part of my previous post do you think may be be misunderstood?

Do you think that is down to my style of expressing myself, or more that what I say is over the heads of many readers, or something else?

briareos said:

Consider Revelations 1 and 2 and how God spoke to existent churches who had problems, some of those problems were love, God said they had to correct them, not that they were altogether lost.

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I agree, but I was speaking more with regards to individuals than to collectives like churches, which is what Jesus was addressing in Revelation.

Here's something else the Bible teaches:




Now, we know that sin is violation of God's Law, the underlying principle of which is love for God and neighbour.

If a born-again person (ie., a Christian) cannot continue in sin, it would make sense that they not be characterized as being hateful, yeah? For example, that's why one who does not love his brother is declared to be "not of God". Jesus also taught love for one's enemy, so we can safely expand this teaching of John's as going beyond merely loving other Christians.

briareos said:

Also Paul edified the churches to love, he was not under the impression that Christians could not act without love.

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If a Christian cannot continue in sin (1st John, Ch. 3), and if "...passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another..." is characteristic of one prior to salvation (Titus, Ch. 3), then I would be hesitant to talk about "hateful Christians".

.

wiremu.white said:

False.

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Hi there! Interesting posts. We might be straying into 'Exploring Christianity' territory here, but I have some comments and questions about your interpretations which seem different to many other christians I have encountered before.

Jesus taught that God's Law hangs on love for God and neighbour as oneself. That's the underlying principle behind laws like "Thou shalt nor murder", and is why Jesus could expand on those laws to include calling your brother a fool or hating your neighbour, etc. Love for God and neighbour is the spirit of his law.

St James also taught that breaking God's Law on one point makes one accountable for breaking the whole lot. This means, if you hate your brother you in effect also despise God, or if you despise God you cannot really love your brother. You can't have one without the other.

So I do not see how you could argue that God prefers love for God but not neighbour, over love for neighbour but not God, or vice-versa. That's like asking which form of sin God prefers. They by definition must go together.

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Is it possible (of course, I don't believe this to be true, but speaking hypothetically here) that love for brother = love for god? After all, christianity was a rather isolated religion until it hit the middle ages. People lived and died in Asia, Africa, Australia, the Americas, and much of Europe never hearing your god's gospel, never getting the chance to 'love' your god because they never knew about it. Did they all automatically go to hell?

Now, if I were a christian, and if I believed that god was merciful and loving, I'd probably assume that there was a way for all people to go to heaven, even if members of the One True Religion hadn't figured out the world was round and there were people on the other side of it yet. Some cultures have no gods and many have lots of gods, but all of them have rules against hurting others in the society and social conventions that encourage cooperation and loyalty.

Love isn't just something you feel, it's something you express. What if the expression of love for god is loving that which was made in his image, i.e. other humans? If you show love to something without really knowing what it is, does that make your love less real? Is it impossible to love in ignorance or disbelief?

Furthermore, the question presumes there is such a thing as a hateful Christian. I would not grant this presumption in light of something the Bible teaches about Christians:

Titus 3:3-5

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit...​

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I'm not understanding how this passage supports your assertion that hateful christians don't exist. It says 'he saved us', but doesn't say, 'and then we never sinned or hated ever again'. I would have to see the rest of the context to tell whether this was a 'clean forever' sort of rebirth or a 'clean until I get dirty again' sort of rebirth. It also doesn't say 'we weren't christians before this'.

Although this is a little out of order, I though this line was a better support for your argument:

1 John 3:9-10

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

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Leaving for the moment the tempting phrase 'God's seed' and all its implications, wouldn't the only person literally born of god be Jesus? And aren't human beings continuously sinning by virtue of being human? Many people who claim to be born-again have committed sins, would you say that these people are no longer 'real' christians? Do they have to be born-again-again? How many times can you be reborn?

There is also the question, what is righteousness? What is loving your brother? Really, what do these last sentences actually mean? Because it seems like every christian I've ever known has a different interpretation of them. For example, some think 'loving your brother' means telling him he is going to hell if he doesn't follow your religion. For others, it means NOT telling him he is going to hell, because he already has his own religion (or lack of it) and you respect his beliefs. Is 'righteousness' acting like Jesus? Wouldn't that mean giving up all of your worldly possessions besides the bare essentials and devoting your life to helping the poor and sick? Certainly some christians have done this, but the majority do not. Wouldn't it also mean no longer going to church?

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. MAT 6:5-6"

Sounds a lot to me like 'don't pray around other people' which is what happens in just about every church. But a lot of people consider going to church and praying there a very righteous act. I mean, a lot of the stuff from the sermon on the mount sounds like allegory or hyperbole, but this seems pretty straight forward to me. Jesus didn't say 'sometimes you should pray in secret'. He said 'pray in secret'. How much more direct can you get?

We are not free to just define Christian however we like.

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And yet, you just have.

There are Biblical descriptions that differentiate Christians from non-Christians, which means that if a person is not matching criteria shown for Christians, then why should they be considered as one?

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Presumably everyone who claims to be a christian has either read said biblical descriptions or been taught by someone who has... yet I think many of them have interpreted these descriptions in ways that would make YOU consider them not-christians, by the interpretation YOU have provided. How do you know that your interpretation is the right one?

If a born-again person (ie., a Christian) cannot continue in sin, it would make sense that they not be characterized as being hateful, yeah? For example, that's why one who does not love his brother is declared to be "not of God". Jesus also taught love for one's enemy, so we can safely expand this teaching of John's as going beyond merely loving other Christians.

If a Christian cannot continue in sin (1st John, Ch. 3), and if "...passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another..." is characteristic of one prior to salvation (Titus, Ch. 3), then I would be hesitant to talk about "hateful Christians".

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Again and as above, terms must be defined or the assertions are meaningless. What do we each mean by the word 'hateful'? Does doing cruel or damaging things because you honestly think they are right count as an act of love or hate? Is intention what matters? You know what they say about the road to hell, after all.


I suppose I could have saved myself some time by just pointing out this is another 'no true christian' fallacy, but I'm honestly interested in your answers.

1 John 4:7-8
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

My interpretation of this is that if you love, you are loving God, and obeying God, regardless of whether you are Christian or atheist. However, the atheist is following his or her heart. Some Christians that I have met only follow the Bible out of obligation, not because they wanted to.

If someone is a hateful Christian, they aren't really Christian, because they are to follow two laws: to love God, and love their neighbor as themselves. If they are instead hateful, they aren't following Christ, they are showing no love for God. They are exalting themselves and condemning others, something Christ told Christians not to do.

At the Last Supper, Christ said, "By this, all men will know that you are my disciples: by the love you show for one another."

Sadly, when you say, "Christian" to the average person, they associate it with someone who is haughty, arrogant, forgiving of self and condemning of others, often condemning people to hell, telling them that that is where they are going, and implying that they earned their way to Salvation by being so holy.

However, I don't know if atheists would care either way, seeing that they don't believe that God exists, and the people that should really take pause when looking at the sign would probably agree, pointing not to themselves, but to the other members of the congregation whom they say, "aren't real Christians."

I often thought that the story of the Goats and Sheep, where the Goats are chastised for not feeding Jesus, not clothing Jesus, etc., while the Sheep were thanked and rewarded, is exactly about this issue.

The Sheep seem surprised that they have helped Jesus, but he explains that whenever they have helped even the least of people, they have helped Jesus.

In that way, when we demonstrate love for our neighbor, we literally love God, and conversely, when we refuse to help others, we refuse Christ.

How can one say, "Yes, of course I love you, Jesus, but I didn't love others, the one thing you asked me to do"?

I find that, as a Christian myself, when people ask me, I have to disarm them, explaining that I wasn't put on this earth to judge them, that I am not worthy to judge them, that I am not going to sell them Jesus like a used car with an "if you die tonight...", but rather, I practice my faith by living by example. I acknowledge that I am a sinner, and don't deserve Salvation/heaven. I acknowledge that telling people that there is a God that they can't see, touch, hear, and, uh, smell, I guess, is a hard sell. The person should see God in me. They should see love, mercy, humility, kindness, and hope within me, which is just God coming through. I acknowledge that I am far from perfect, and I am most concerned about the one life that I have control over, mine, and how I live it. And that I believe that living Christ is about loving actively, all which flows from God freely. And is not about sin. It is not about patting yourself on the back for refraining from, say, killing someone. It's about what you do to demonstrate love to everyone you interact with. And I also explain that I know that God loves us. We act in love, and God loves us. We act in selfishness against each other, what we call sin, hurting each other or ourselves, and God loves us.

God's love is constant, and if one accepts to follow Jesus, they need only to accept his love, and acknowledge that God loves them. That's it. You don't have to change your life. But when you realize that God loves you, and values you, you then must decide what you want to do, knowing that.

And I explain that if we are going to talk religion, I will listen to them, their beliefs, their comments, and respect their religious beliefs.

That shouldn't floor anyone, but it usually does.

peggy sue said:

biblically it doesn't matter, they're both excluded from entering the kingdom of heaven

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Do you think one is any better or worse than the other? A hateful Christian can't love God if he has no love for his fellow man, so whatever faith he professes is worthless. A kind atheist may love his fellow man, but without faith in God he is equally cut off from entering the kindgom of heaven.

It's kind of like comparing a crooked cop with an honest criminal.

Contented said:

Very true. Both the unloving and the atheist have no place with God. When you deny God how can you know love. We love because God because he first loved us. So the atheist is denying the existence of God and think that God still PREFERS HIM to the unloving Christian. The difference between the Christian and the Atheist is that the Christian can go to God and seek forgivemeness and make amends. BUT the atheist does not even acknowledge there is a God. His kindness means nothing.

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''When you deny God how can you know love''. I love and I disbelieve in the existence of supernatural beings and places, because I see no evidence for their existence and evidences to deny religious claims, same for other atheists,as well as All beings love not only humans.

''His kindness means nothing'' .. Our kindness must mean something to those we love and help and of course it makes something to us.

wiremu, dead on.

orangelight said:

''When you deny God how can you know love''. I love and I disbelieve in the existence of supernatural beings and places, because I see no evidence for their existence and evidences to deny religious claims, same for other atheists,as well as All beings love not only humans.

''His kindness means nothing'' .. Our kindness must mean something to those we love and help and of course it makes something to us.

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Would you try to please a God in whom you do not believe by doing good works?

Labels are labels, however if a believer and follower of God/Jesus exhibits all the higher values such as love, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, compassion, joy, and abundant life, that believer is on his/her way to salvation. Why would someone not want to practice the Godly, Holy values? It doesn't make any sense to me otherwise.

RomanSoldier said:

True or not? What do you think?

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What would you consider a hateful Christian?