Brothers of Jesus

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Thekla

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You call this "confirmation"? "Confirmation" from whom? Christ rejecters? Sorry, but their opinions mean nothing to me in relation to truth. Additionally, scripture states that "Jerusalem which is above is free, WHICH IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL" (Galatians 4:26).

NOT Rachel...

NOT Mary...

JERUSALEM WHICH IS ABOVE.

I'll stick with the scriptural account. Thanks.

Yes, that is ultimately the case.

But to interpret the verses you quoted as referring to Mary was inaccurate; the Jews were meant as the brethren (which is how Paul refers to them), and in the understanding of the Jews, Rachel is their "mother".
 
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Thekla

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First of all, there's no shortage of "commentators" (those who write commentaries) who believe that it is only IMPUTED "foolishness" and "sins/guiltiness" that is being spoken of here. Again, the reproaches of God fell upon the One being spoken of, but He was genuinely not guilty of any such reproaches Himself. Anyhow, whether or not the entire Psalm literally speaks of Christ or not, portions of it most certainly do. In what I already cited, the One speaking explains why He has become an alien unto HIS MOTHER'S CHILDREN when He says "for" or "because". IOW, He gives the reasons for such alienation. Also, there are certainly other parts of this Psalm which point directly to Jesus Christ. Here are a couple of them, as attested by the New Testament scriptures:

Psalm 69:4

"THEY THAT HATE ME WITHOUT A CAUSE are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away."

Compared with:

John 15:23-25

"He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. BUT THIS COMETH TO PASS, THAT THE WORD MIGHT BE FULFILLED THAT IS WRITTEN IN THEIR LAW, THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE."

There's also this:

Psalm 69:21

"They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink."

Compared to:

Matthew 27:34

"THEY GAVE HIM VINEGAR TO DRINK MINGLED WITH GALL: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink."

Indeed, the Psalms are full of prophetic passages; these are in fact a feature of our worship and teachings :thumbsup:

But it was the Jews who were the brethren who rejected Christ. Indeed, after the Resurrection, history attests those called "adelphos" were Christians. Paul refers to the Jews as his "brethren", and the OT understanding (including the Prophet Jeremiah) identifies Rachel as the "mother" of the Jews. (As before, see the prayer she makes to God after her death, and His answer to her.)
 
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Thekla

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Actually, whatever God wills is important to our salvation.

God willed that our salvation be opened in a particular way, and called particular people to "synergos" (Paul's term, synergy/fellow workers) in His plan. Mary was one of these, likewise all the Apostles.

Knowing the effect of Christ on those that are called indeed "teaches" us about Christ Himself.

Knowing God's will is in part known by knowing of those He called, and how this demonstrated His will.

Finally, as Paul says, " ... when one member is glorified, all rejoice". This is a characteristic of the body of Christ.
 
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Montalban

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First of all, there's no shortage of "commentators" (those who write commentaries) who believe that it is only IMPUTED "foolishness" and "sins/guiltiness" that is being spoken of here.

Yes, I get that. So why do you go from 'literal' brothers to 'implied' foolishness?

You were insisting that 'brother' must be literal

Also I find the fact you rely on commentators interesting - sinking a hole in sola scriptura because scripture alone doesn't guide you
 
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Fireinfolding

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adore / worship

whatever you wanna call it

personally i dont believe mary to be relevant to salvation in any area whatsoever


The apostles say it very simply and very impersonally, he was made of a woman made under the law to redeem the same.

Jesus Christ:thumbsup:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
 
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Going Merry

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The apostles say it very simply and very impersonally, he was made of a woman made under the law to redeem the same.

Jesus Christ:thumbsup:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
which is why i believe only jesus is required for salvation, not with help from mary.
 
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God's Word

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Montalban said:
Yes, I get that. So why do you go from 'literal' brothers to 'implied' foolishness?

First of all, I said "imputed" and NOT "implied". Secondly, I mentioned "MY MOTHER'S CHILDREN" to offset all of this fantasy talk of Joseph having children from a previous marriage.

Montalban said:
You were insisting that 'brother' must be literal

Again, I spoke of "MY MOTHER'S CHILDREN". If the realization that such includes Jesus' literal brothers bothers you, then that's a personal problem of your own.

Montalban said:
Also I find the fact you rely on commentators interesting - sinking a hole in sola scriptura because scripture alone doesn't guide you

Who said that I "rely" on commentators? I rely on the Godhead. I only mentioned the commentators for YOUR potential benefit. Finally, scripture alone doesn't guide me. I rely heavily on the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT...the One Who actually inspired the writers of scripture.
 
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God's Word

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Thekla said:
Yes, that is ultimately the case.

But to interpret the verses you quoted as referring to Mary was inaccurate; the Jews were meant as the brethren (which is how Paul refers to them), and in the understanding of the Jews, Rachel is their "mother".

No offense intended, but I literally shook my head in stunned unbelief as I read that. You're going to mention Paul and then jump to how Jews understood Rachel is their "mother"?

NEWSFLASH!

Paul was A JEW and he certainly didn't view Rachel as a "mother" to any sort of Jew.

To the believing Jew, Paul said that JERUSALEM WHICH IS ABOVE IS THEIR MOTHER.

To the unbelieving Jew, Paul said that they were of the bondwoman Hagar.

Care to try again?
 
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Thekla

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No offense intended, but I literally shook my head in stunned unbelief as I read that. You're going to mention Paul and then jump to how Jews understood Rachel is their "mother"?

NEWSFLASH!

Paul was A JEW and he certainly didn't view Rachel as a "mother" to any sort of Jew.

To the believing Jew, Paul said that JERUSALEM WHICH IS ABOVE IS THEIR MOTHER.

To the unbelieving Jew, Paul said that they were of the bondwoman Hagar.

Care to try again?

Jeremiah 31

God hears the (dead) Rachel weeping for her children who are exiled; who are her children, according to God speaking through Jeremiah ?
 
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Fireinfolding

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Mary said....

Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

And so it was...

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Left this one open...;)
 
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Thekla

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Mary said....

Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

And so it was...

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Left this one open...;)

:)
Yes, in this she is blessed, but moreso because she heard the word of God and kept it.
Thus, the Word was born to walk with us, and save us; Jesus Christ :thumbsup:
 
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ViaCrucis

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what her getting pregnant?

thats the limit for me
anything else is not needed

In Mary's womb the Word became flesh.
In Mary's womb God became united to our humanity.
Born of Mary's womb is the Salvation of the world.
Born of Mary's womb is God Himself.
She raised, took care of, fed, and nurtured the Lord Eternal, her own Child.

I don't know, but that seems to make Mary pretty important. If you don't think so, well that's fine.

As for my thoughts, being the mother of God is no small thing.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Fireinfolding

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:)
Yes, in this she is blessed, but moreso because she heard the word of God and kept it.
Thus, the Word was born to walk with us, and save us; Jesus Christ :thumbsup:


Jesus replied, right on little lady youve got your devotions in the right place, did I say "they"? ;)^_^

Im glad for the obedience of Christ and blessed are all THEY that hear the word of God and keep it (as Jesus said) :thumbsup:
 
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