SolomonVII
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What 4 words are you talking about anyway?
Who are 'they'?
"and (from] the Son."
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What 4 words are you talking about anyway?
Who are 'they'?
I'll try this again - is the Nicea Creed an 'addition' to scripture?
Yes, or no.
My sister just come to the Lord and I told her not to join the forums
I am sending her examples as to why (so it makes sense to her) so I chose this thread as one of a few that is going to her
To convince her not to, so I thank you Montalban
The Creed: It's not an addition to Scripture, but a confession of the faith required for salvaition, as expressed in Scripture. With or without the one word, not four "Filioque" (and the Son) it is correct and true; as is the Apostles Creed, and the Athanasian Creed.
My sister just come to the Lord and I told her not to join the forums
I am sending her examples as to why (so it makes sense to her) so I chose this thread as one of a few that is going to her
To convince her not to, so I thank you Montalban
Aside from the rule thingy...
I don't think it's an addition either. But I'd like to know if some think it is... after-all, if they believe that scripture itself is sufficient - why have 'creeds'?
Certainly, but I wonder if people think 'formulae' and 'creeds' are 'additions to'Well, it's easier than reciting the whole Bible... from memory!
Certainly, but I wonder if people think 'formulae' and 'creeds' are 'additions to'
You asked for clarification on which four words I believe this is what squint was talking about.That's known as one word ... filioque. Words are important.
I refuse to play on the grounds of 4 words defining the entirety God in Christ and then having to claim each others heretics over it. Seems rather pointless. They both forgot the appearance of God in Christ is a great mystery.
You asked for clarification on which four words I believe this is what squint was talking about.
As for my opinon, squint sums it up rather well.
That word was also brought up on this thread....never really understood it that muchYou asked for clarification on which four words I believe this is what squint was talking about.
As for my opinon, squint sums it up rather well.
Today many Eastern Orthodox bishops are putting aside old prejudices and again acknowledging that there need be no separation between the two communions on this issue. Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware (formerly Timothy Ware), who once adamantly opposed the filioque doctrine, states: "The filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality, but it is not insoluble. Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote [my book] The Orthodox Church twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics and different emphases than in any basic doctrinal differences" (Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby’s A Voice from the Byzantine East, 43).
I am no closer to knowing where you stand on this.
Certainly, but I wonder if people think 'formulae' and 'creeds' are 'additions to'
But unfortunately in many sects there are hardliners who can't seem to get over themselves and such think they have everything in some tidy little package that they can use to beat others into submission with.
I consider that to be kind of a waste of time myself.
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The filioque wasn't part of the first creed, but added.
In the late sixth century, the Latin-speaking churches of Western Europe added the words "and the Son" (Filioque) to the description of the procession of the Holy Spirit, in what Easterners have argued is a violation of Canon VII of the Third Ecumenical Council, since the words were not included in the text by either the Council of Nicaea or that of Constantinople.
Nicene Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Creeds aren't scripture. One hopes they're accurate, but they are tradition.
In this dispute, we can also see the authority question raised: Is it a pope or is it a council that has the final say?
I suppose the issue is really the question of the authority of scripture as the rule of faith. IOW, as men made these creeds and empowered them, they became slaves to different masters.
The Athanasian Creed
Written against the Arians.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.
And you wont be if you will not answer my "if"
Questions: Is her faith not strong enough? Why are you here if it's so bad?
The Creed: It's not an addition to Scripture, but a confession of the faith required for salvaition, as expressed in Scripture. With or without the one word, not four "Filioque" (and the Son) it is correct and true; as is the Apostles Creed, and the Athanasian Creed.
The Nicene Creed is the statement of faith of Christian Forums (with and without the Filioque); if one does not agree with it, one should not be posting in this Forum: see the rules. This rule is non negotiable.
BTW, the third article regarding the Holy Spirit, and Sanctification, was a later addition as well. The purpose of it's original form was as a statement against Arianism. The later addition of the third article changed the creed from just a statement against Arianism to a comprehensive, universal statement of faith.
I think we need to accept that it was edited for clarification.
Arianism continued to persist for some time, and this resulted in the drafting and adoption of a "third" Ecumenical Creed, also based on the teachings of Athanasius; see if this one suits you better:
Speaking of clarification...
I think you should either clarify your "if", or drop it. Right now, it's baiting, and that's against the rules.