What Commandment did God say to; "Remember", that the world wants to forget?

Strong in Him · Jan 10, 2012

You know, maybe I'm dense but I just don't see why people would argue for us being under the law.

The law, given at Sinai, was given to Moses and the nation of Israel. THEY were the ones who had been rescued from Egypt by God, and these were their instructions about how to live holy lives, in relationship with the God who had saved them and made his covenant with them. They were to be different from other nations - other nations did not have their covenant.
Circumcision was the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham; it wasn't part of the Mosaic law.

Then Jesus, the Messiah, came and told the Jews that he had come to fulfil the law - THEIR law. So the law was fulfilled in him, and before he died he told his disciples that the wine they were drinking represented his blood of the NEW covenant. This new covenant was prophesied by Jeremiah; if anyone was in any doubt, Jesus said that his blood was being shed for the forgiveness of sins.
I read a book once by a Jewish man who set out to prove from Scripture that his daughter was wrong to become a Christian, (you may be able to guess what happened!) In it he said that when a covenant was made it was ratified by the "cutting of the covenant". This covenant, made by God, was for the forgiveness of sins and was cut when God's Son was put to death on the cross.

So - Jesus fulfilled the Jewish law, and gave us the NEW covenant, (and a new command too, (see John 13:34) which was cut on the cross and sealed with his blood.
Paul teaches that if the Jews to who he was writing looked to the law to save them then they were saying that Christ died for nothing. He, a former Pharisee and zealous law keeper, taught that the Jewish law could not, and had never been able to, save the Jews.
So why on earth do some people teach that Gentiles have to be bound to a law that was never given to them, and was unable to save even those to whom it was given?

If the law had been able to save, and people able to keep it perfectly, there would have been no point in Jesus coming and dying in agony on the cross. The Jews could simply have said to the rest of the world, "this is how you become reconciled to God and find forgiveness; just keep his law. In fact, follow our example - we're his chosen, this is how to do it."
One glance at the OT should tell anyone that the Jews were totally incapable of keeping his law - even after they'd seen the miracle of the Red Sea and being sustained in the wilderness. The law, which was fulfilled in Jesus anyway, cannot save, so I don't see why people who never received it are now being urged to keep it.

Jesus saves. I could keep the Sabbath perfectly and abstain from pork, and yet I will not be loved or saved any more than I am now. It's the same for all of us.

tzadik · Jan 10, 2012

Strong in Him said:
You know, maybe I'm dense but I just don't see why people would argue for us being under the law.

Being under the Law has nothing to do with Keeping God's commandments. Keeping God's commandments is obeying God.

Strong in Him said:
The law, given at Sinai, was given to Moses and the nation of Israel. THEY were the ones who had been rescued from Egypt by God, and these were their instructions about how to live holy lives, in relationship with the God who had saved them and made his covenant with them. They were to be different from other nations - other nations did not have their covenant.

Think about this for a second. Every other nation were pagan nations serving pagan gods and lost, without hope, strangers to the covenants and excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. (Alot like Ephesians 2:12) God chose Israel to reveal Himself to the nations. That is why He gave Israel His instructions for Holy Living, so they can live a life that pleases God and teach those who joined themselves to the One and Only God of Israel to do the same. (Alot like Matthew 28:19) It may seem foreign to you, but that was, is and continues to be God's plan. God revealed Himself to Israel, He sent His Messiah through Israel, and now everyone who believes in the Messiah and the God of Israel are no longer strangers to the covenants, (for example New Covenant which is made with the House of Israel) or the promises, (becoming fellowheirs with Abraham), because we have joined ourselves to the God of Israel.
So yes, He did not make His covenant with any other nations, but all the other nations were lost, and will continue to be lost until they join themselves, place their faith, fear, love and serve the God of Israel.

Strong in Him said:
Then Jesus, the Messiah, came and told the Jews that he had come to fulfil the law - THEIR law. So the law was fulfilled in him, and before he died he told his disciples that the wine they were drinking represented his blood of the NEW covenant. This new covenant was prophesied by Jeremiah; if anyone was in any doubt, Jesus said that his blood was being shed for the forgiveness of sins.

"THEIR" Law? No God's Law. The Messiah came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Do you know what that means? I know many forget that "the Prophets" are also included in Matthew 5:17. If Yeshua came to "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets in the way many understand the word "fulfill" (aka do away with, cancel, etc) then you would effectively be cancelling all the prophecies, and shadows of the good things still to come. This is exactly what Yeshua did NOT come to do. Fulfill does not mean do away with. How can He in verse 17 tell us that He "came to do away with the Law" and in the very next verse state that not even the smallest stroke of a letter of the Law will be removed until heaven and earth pass and ALL is accomplished (Luke 16:17 too)? Why would He take the time in verse 19 to stress that those who annul and teach against His commandments will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven, if He Himself came to annul them? So you see our understanding of Matthew 5:17-20 need to match up with...well even just the clear text there alone.

Strong in Him said:
So - Jesus fulfilled the Jewish law, and gave us the NEW covenant, (and a new command too, (see John 13:34) which was cut on the cross and sealed with his blood.

"Jesus fulfilled God's Law" What do you think that means? God the Son came to do away with God the Father's Law? Hardly. He couldn't be God the Son if He came to change or do away with anything the Father ordained. The question should be, why did He ordain and give His Law? What was the purpose? You yourself stated that it was to teach His people to live Holy Lives. Why would that change? The Law was never given for salvation, why then do you claim that the Law needs to be gone when the Savior arrives?

Strong in Him said:
Paul teaches that if the Jews to who he was writing looked to the law to save them then they were saying that Christ died for nothing. He, a former Pharisee and zealous law keeper, taught that the Jewish law could not, and had never been able to, save the Jews.

Again, not sure where you see anyone teaching that we will be saved by keeping God's Laws. No one is saved by keeping Any commandments. Ever.

Strong in Him said:
So why on earth do some people teach that Gentiles have to be bound to a law that was never given to them, and was unable to save even those to whom it was given?

The question should be---again---why did God give His Law to His people, if it wasn't to save them? Answer--to teach them how to walk in His ways. So why wouldn't we use the same instructions to teach us how to walk in His ways? Does God have more than one way? Does God have two different standards of Holy Living? No He doesn't. It's the same standard from the beginning. Why would it change? Aren't His ways perfect, righteous and good?

Strong in Him said:
If the law had been able to save, and people able to keep it perfectly, there would have been no point in Jesus coming and dying in agony on the cross. The Jews could simply have said to the rest of the world, "this is how you become reconciled to God and find forgiveness; just keep his law. In fact, follow our example - we're his chosen, this is how to do it."

Again---The Law wasn't given to be kept for salvation. I agree, if Salvation was by the keeping of the Law, then we wouldn't need the Messiah. It's not possible to earn our salvation. It is a free gift, by grace and mercy of God through faith alone. Instead God gave His Law to teach His people to walk in His ways, delight in Him, love Him and love their neighbors.

Strong in Him said:
One glance at the OT should tell anyone that the Jews were totally incapable of keeping his law - even after they'd seen the miracle of the Red Sea and being sustained in the wilderness. The law, which was fulfilled in Jesus anyway, cannot save, so I don't see why people who never received it are now being urged to keep it.

Really? One glance at the "OT" and you'll see that no one kept the Law? are you serious? are you telling me that God gave His people Instructions that He knew they couldn't follow, and further punished them for not following them? You gotta be kidding me. What kind of a God would He be? Read Deuteronomy 30:11-14 to see what God tells them about the "difficultness" of His commandments. God doesn't lie. In fact you can even look at the "NT" and see time after time again--where believers are all keeping God's Law and zealous for His Law. [Luke 1:6, Acts 21:24, Acts 21:20, Luke 23:56 etc]
One good reason to Keep God's Instructions is because He instructed it.
2 Timothy 3:16 gives us plenty of other reason we should live our lives according to His Word. Psalm 119:1, Psalm 1, Psalm 19, John 14:15, 1 John 2, 1 John 5 the list goes on and on---all stressing the importance and value and joy and delight of keeping God's commandments.

Strong in Him said:
Jesus saves. I could keep the Sabbath perfectly and abstain from pork, and yet I will not be loved or saved any more than I am now. It's the same for all of us.

How is keeping the Sabbath different from not stealing, or not worshiping false gods, or not lusting?

from scratch · Jan 10, 2012

tzadik said:
Being under the Law has nothing to do with Keeping God's commandments. Keeping God's commandments is obeying God.

If one violates the law are they subject to it IYO? If they're then they are subject to (regulated by or under) the law whether or not they violate the law.

Think about this for a second. Every other nation were pagan nations serving pagan gods and lost, without hope, strangers to the covenants and excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. (Alot like Ephesians 2:12) God chose Israel to reveal Himself to the nations. That is why He gave Israel His instructions for Holy Living, so they can live a life that pleases God and teach those who joined themselves to the One and Only God of Israel to do the same. (Alot like Matthew 28:19) It may seem foreign to you, but that was, is and continues to be God's plan. God revealed Himself to Israel, He sent His Messiah through Israel, and now everyone who believes in the Messiah and the God of Israel are no longer strangers to the covenants, (for example New Covenant which is made with the House of Israel) or the promises, (becoming fellowheirs with Abraham), because we have joined ourselves to the God of Israel.
So yes, He did not make His covenant with any other nations, but all the other nations were lost, and will continue to be lost until they join themselves, place their faith, fear, love and serve the God of Israel.

Is joining ones self to God thru Jesus joining oneself to the covenant made with Israel at Mt Sinai in Horeb? I don't read that one can join that covenant thru Jesus. One can join themselves to the God of Israel thru the NC blood of Jesus only. Even Jews can only join this covenant thru the blood of Jesus. Jesus said you must go or come thru Him to get in. The law no where provides entrance to heaven.

"THEIR" Law? No God's Law. The Messiah came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Do you know what that means? I know many forget that "the Prophets" are also included in Matthew 5:17. If Yeshua came to "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets in the way many understand the word "fulfill" (aka do away with, cancel, etc) then you would effectively be cancelling all the prophecies, and shadows of the good things still to come. This is exactly what Yeshua did NOT come to do. Fulfill does not mean do away with. How can He in verse 17 tell us that He "came to do away with the Law" and in the very next verse state that not even the smallest stroke of a letter of the Law will be removed until heaven and earth pass and ALL is accomplished (Luke 16:17 too)? Why would He take the time in verse 19 to stress that those who annul and teach against His commandments will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven, if He Himself came to annul them? So you see our understanding of Matthew 5:17-20 need to match up with...well even just the clear text there alone.

You obviously don't grasp the meaning of fulfil. You obviously throw out Scripture even the words of Jesus in saying the law still has jusrisdiction. This has been explained to you with out using Paul and you still reject it. It has been shown to you using the OT law and prophets and you still reject it. Why?

Jesus fulfilled God's Law" What do you think that means? God the Son came to do away with God the Father's Law? Hardly. He couldn't be God the Son if He came to change or do away with anything the Father ordained. The question should be, why did He ordain and give His Law? What was the purpose? You yourself stated that it was to teach His people to live Holy Lives. Why would that change? The Law was never given for salvation, why then do you claim that the Law needs to be gone when the Savior arrives?

What does Jeremiah say in this regard? It has been quoted to you.

Again, not sure where you see anyone teaching that we will be saved by keeping God's Laws. No one is saved by keeping Any commandments. Ever.

Then why are you pushing the law? If the law can't save anyone how can the law maintain their salvation? Gal 3:1-3.

The question should be---again---why did God give His Law to His people, if it wasn't to save them? Answer--to teach them how to walk in His ways. So why wouldn't we use the same instructions to teach us how to walk in His ways? Does God have more than one way? Does God have two different standards of Holy Living? No He doesn't. It's the same standard from the beginning. Why would it change? Aren't His ways perfect, righteous and good?

Did God give His law to all mankind or Israel? Deut 5:3 You're misusing the phrase God's people for a decieving purpose. This is called lying and covered by the 9th commandment. Christians don't become Israel for there is no Jew nor Greek in Jesus Christ - Gal 3:28. We're in Jesus Christ and not Israel. Jesus saves and not Israel.

Again---The Law wasn't given to be kept for salvation. I agree, if Salvation was by the keeping of the Law, then we wouldn't need the Messiah. It's not possible to earn our salvation. It is a free gift, by grace and mercy of God through faith alone. Instead God gave His Law to teach His people to walk in His ways, delight in Him, love Him and love their neighbors.

You're trying to have it both ways. No dice.

Really? One glance at the "OT" and you'll see that no one kept the Law? are you serious? are you telling me that God gave His people Instructions that He knew they couldn't follow, and further punished them for not following them? You gotta be kidding me. What kind of a God would He be? Read Deuteronomy 30:11-14 to see what God tells them about the "difficultness" of His commandments. God doesn't lie. In fact you can even look at the "NT" and see time after time again--where believers are all keeping God's Law and zealous for His Law. [Luke 1:6, Acts 21:24, Acts 21:20, Luke 23:56 etc]

Yes - 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom 11.

One good reason to Keep God's Instructions is because He instructed it.
2 Timothy 3:16 gives us plenty of other reason we should live our lives according to His Word. Psalm 119:1, Psalm 1, Psalm 19, John 14:15, 1 John 2, 1 John 5 the list goes on and on---all stressing the importance and value and joy and delight of keeping God's commandments.

Please name any person other than Jesus who kept the law and I'll rest my case. You simply can't because of these 2 OT verses - 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Ps 14 and - 3Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. There are more such as Isa 64:6

How is keeping the Sabbath different from not stealing, or not worshiping false gods, or not lusting?

I don't know. But why don't you keep the sabbath as recorded on the stone tablets? Wouldn't that be sin? Did Someone of authority give you permission to amend the stone tablets?

Strong in Him · Jan 11, 2012

tzadik said:
Think about this for a second. Every other nation were pagan nations serving pagan gods and lost, without hope, strangers to the covenants and excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. (Alot like Ephesians 2:12) God chose Israel to reveal Himself to the nations. That is why He gave Israel His instructions for Holy Living, so they can live a life that pleases God and teach those who joined themselves to the One and Only God of Israel to do the same.

That might have been the purpose, but they didn't do a very good job of it.
God was revealed to the world through Israel - the Messiah was born a Jew, descended from the line of David.

tzadik said:
(Alot like Matthew 28:19)

Not at all like Matt 28:19. Jesus told his followers to go into the world, preach the Gospel, baptise and make disciples - not promote Israel as an example of holy living. We are righteous and holy in Jesus and because of the cross, not because we keep the laws given to Moses.

tzadik said:
It may seem foreign to you, but that was, is and continues to be God's plan. God revealed Himself to Israel, He sent His Messiah through Israel, and now everyone who believes in the Messiah and the God of Israel are no longer strangers to the covenants, (for example New Covenant which is made with the House of Israel) or the promises, (becoming fellowheirs with Abraham), because we have joined ourselves to the God of Israel.

So God sent Jesus to reconcile us to himself - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - which makes us subject to all the laws which they were given? ALL of them?

Jesus said that his blood was of the New Covenant - shed for many for the forgiveness of sins. We are heirs with, and in, Christ, (Rom 8:17) not Abraham. It is in Christ that all God's promises are fulfilled (2 Cor 1:20-22)

tzadik said:
So yes, He did not make His covenant with any other nations, but all the other nations were lost, and will continue to be lost until they join themselves, place their faith, fear, love and serve the God of Israel.

They, and all people, will continue to be lost until they believe in Jesus, and that he died for their sins to reconcile them with God and grant them forgiveness and eternal life.

tzadik said:
"THEIR" Law? No God's Law.

Yes, God's law, which he gave to their nation - the nation he had rescued from Egypt and chosen to be his holy people.

tzadik said:
The Messiah came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Do you know what that means? I know many forget that "the Prophets" are also included in Matthew 5:17. If Yeshua came to "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets in the way many understand the word "fulfill" (aka do away with, cancel, etc) then you would effectively be cancelling all the prophecies, and shadows of the good things still to come. This is exactly what Yeshua did NOT come to do.

I know, I didn't say that he did.

The law said that people had to offer sacrifices for their sin and guilt, to give thanks and be in fellowship or at peace with God and one another. Christ laid down his life as a sacrifice, (John 10:17-18) made once and for all, (Hebrews 10:10). Through his death we are reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:18-19), have peace with God, (Rom 5:1) are redeemed and forgiven (Eph 1:7; 1 John 1:9).
The law said that the Israelites had to refrain from eating certain foods and wearing certain materials, they could not touch dead bodies or anyone with a skin condition etc - these things would make them clean and holy.
Christ said that his word makes us clean (John 15:3), and it is the blood of Christ, not animals, that makes us clean (Heb 9:14).
The law said that they were to put God first, make no idol or image etc.
Jesus told us that the 2 greatest commandments were, love the Lord your God with all your heart (1st 4 commandments) and love your neighbour as yourself (last 6). He also told us to seek the kingdom of God first before all things.)
The law said the Israelites had to keep certain feasts and festivals.
Christ is our Passover Lamb (1 Cor 5:7), was tabernacled among us (John 1:14), has made atonement for our sins (1 John 2:2) and it is through him that we enter into a Sabbath rest (Heb 4; verse 3 says "now we who have believed enter that rest).

Jesus' coming, life, ministry, betrayal, death etc were all foretold by OT prophets. Matthew, in particular, tells us of the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled - and I don't think he lists all of them.

Christ fulfils the law and the prophets, just as he said.

tzadik said:
Fulfill does not mean do away with. How can He in verse 17 tell us that He "came to do away with the Law" and in the very next verse state that not even the smallest stroke of a letter of the Law will be removed until heaven and earth pass and ALL is accomplished (Luke 16:17 too)?

You seem to have assumed that I believe "fulfil" means "do away with". I don't and I did not say that I did.

tzadik said:
"Jesus fulfilled God's Law" What do you think that means? God the Son came to do away with God the Father's Law?

See above. Why do you keep saying that I believe Jesus did away with the law?

tzadik said:
The question should be, why did He ordain and give His Law? What was the purpose? You yourself stated that it was to teach His people to live Holy Lives. Why would that change?

We are holy in Christ, the One who has completed, or fulfilled, the law. We are being sanctified and being changed into his image and likeness by his Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:18) who lives, or can live, in us. The Holy Spirit came after Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension, to live in believers, guide us into all truth, convict us of sin, assure us that we are children of God and heirs with Christ.

tzadik said:
Really? One glance at the "OT" and you'll see that no one kept the Law? are you serious?

Er yes - which OT are you reading?
Time after time the Israelites broke God's law, turned away from him, worshipped other gods, were punished, turned back and were restored, until the next time when they broke the law again.
David wrote Psalms in praise of God's law, but still committed murder and adultery. Moses gave the law but was not perfect and not allowed into the promised land because of his disobedience. Abraham was given the covenant and circumcision, but still passed his wife off as his siter - twice! Jacob, one of the forefathers, was a deceiver. Solomon built the temple to God, wrote proverbs, was initailly a wise and God fearing man -yet married many women who brought their false gods into the nation. Many kings did likewise.
There are a couple of people who are described as righteous and blameless, but even they could not have been perfect, (Noah got drunk and disgraced himself), because if anyone could be perfect by keeping the law, Jesus would not have come.

tzadik said:
are you telling me that God gave His people Instructions that He knew they couldn't follow, and further punished them for not following them?

No, he gave them his law, his standard and ideal, but knew they wouldn't be able to keep it perfectly - otherwise why make provision for when they sinned?

tzadik said:
You gotta be kidding me. What kind of a God would He be? Read Deuteronomy 30:11-14 to see what God tells them about the "difficultness" of His commandments. God doesn't lie.

I know, his commands are to put him first; to love, trust, serve and honour only him - simple.
But it is complicated by the fact that sin came into the world and separated us from God; broke the relationship between the creator and his created. That sin had to be dealt with and the relationship restored bfore we could belong to God and be his children. The Israelites were told to sacrifice animals to atone for their sin. They sinned, killed an animal and were briefly reconciled to God, until the next time they sinned.
Sin was dealt with once and for all time in Christ.

tzadik said:
How is keeping the Sabbath different from not stealing, or not worshiping false gods, or not lusting?

Who says we don't keep a day as a sabbath? All of us worship God - probably every day; most of us rest from our work.
The only thing that some are disputing is that it has to be a Saturday - i.e our seventh day.

Elder 111 · Jan 11, 2012

Strong in Him said:
Who says we don't keep a day as a sabbath? All of us worship God - probably every day; most of us rest from our work.
The only thing that some are disputing is that it has to be a Saturday - i.e our seventh day.

God said that not man. Is it that God is not clear? He did not say a day as a sabbath He said the Sabbath, the Seventh day. if you have a problem with that you have a problem with God.

tzadik · Jan 11, 2012

from scratch said:
If one violates the law are they subject to it IYO? If they're then they are subject to (regulated by or under) the law whether or not they violate the law.

My point is simple. Those keeping Gods commandments are NOT UNDER THE LAW. If you want to talk about those who violate Gods commandmentsthats a different story. Theres a big difference between those who are saved by grace and break Gods commandments say a believer lies vs. and unbeliever continuing to break Gods commandments day in and day outoutside of grace. Gods Instructions provides provision for when we break His commandments. You act like God gave us His commandments expecting us to keep them perfectly. That is simply not the case. God KNOWS we would sin, and therefore provided actions and repentance that would reconcile us back to Him.
It all starts with your view of Gods Law. You need to stop trying to bury it and ask why did God give His Law to begin with? Until you can correctly answer this question, you cant bury His Instructions. They were given for a reason. That reason still remains today. That reason will continue to remain until we are sinless. Until we do not need Instruction anymore. Until that part of Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant occur-when everyone will Know God and His will and no one will have to teach his neighbor anymore. Until that day comes, us flawed humans will continue needing Guidance and Instruction. Its that simple.
What is the purpose of instruction? Dont think Torah, think any instruction. Why do we give instructions? Why does everything come with an instruction manual? Why do we give our kids instructions? Why do we send our kids to school to be instructed? Think about that for a second.
Gods Torah is His Instruction for Holy Living. Its that straightforward.
He gave it to the people that He chose for Himself. The people He chose to be a light to the nations. The nation He chose to reveal Himself, His plan and His will to the world!
Torah plays a huge role in being a light to the nations. Now we can sit and debate until the wee hours of the night whether or not Israel did or did not do a good job.
But think about this for a second.
If Israel didnt do a good enough job for you---how are you saved today?

If Israel was the ONLY nation that knew God, loved God, served God and obeyed God---how did the rest of the world come to know God?
Think about even during Yeshuas time---He told His disciples that He came for the lost sheep of Israel. He restricted them and told them to only witness to the Jewsnot to the Gentiles. He told them to wait until His Spirit is poured out on them, before sending them to the nations. Yes, Gentiles here and there, foreigners here and there (maybe more than Im giving credit to) were saved from the time of Moses until Acts.
And what happened to all the Gentiles, foreigners who changed their false gods for the True God of Israel? They joined themselves with Gods people, served their God, obeyed the God of Israels will and kept His commandments. Why?
Because thats how God ordained it. Thats how He set it up.
Gentile serves and worships false god. Gentile turns to the REAL God. Gentile believer leaves pagan ways, pagan rituals, pagan feasts, pagan rules. Gentile believer joins the people of God. Gentile believer follows Gods ways, Gods feasts, Gods rules and Gods instructions. Its not rocket science.
Back to Yeshuas time. He leaves His disciples with the promise and the command to wait for the promise and THEN go to the nations and do what? Nothing different from when God told Israel to be a light to the nations. Nothing different than Yeshua telling them in Matthew 5:16 that they are to be a light to the nations. The only thing thats changed is that the Messiah has come, so we now preach Messiah crucified, we look backwhile those before Him looked forward to His coming. Do all Israel believe the Messiah has come? No sir. But thats besides the point.
To say that Israel screwed up, might be true. But Israel as a people. Believing Israel did a good enough jobreaching out to the nations, starting in Acts 2 (although most of those saved that day were Jewish believers) slowly but surely BELIEVING ISRAEL, reached Gentiles and the process continued. The Gentiles turned from their pagan ways, their pagan feasts, their pagan seasons, their pagan rituals and their pagan rules---to the True God of Israel, to the Messiah of Israel, to Gods ways, His Instructions taught every Sabbath in His Temple.
See the pattern. Its clear---if you humbly allow God to show it to you.
God called Israel to be a light to the nations. With all their whoring---there was ALWAYS a remnant of believing Israel who kept the candle burning, bringing it to the book of Matthew, even after the dark ages after Malachito the time of Messiahwho helped RELIGHT the candle even brighter, to Matthew 28:19 when Yeshua tells them to continue lighting up the world---which thank God they did a good enough job of that you and I are saved today.
Gentiles who would still be worshipping false gods, sacrificing to idols and eating strangled things, blood and fornicating. But were not. Why? Because that remnant of believing Israel reached out to our ancestors ancestors and the Word and Gospel of the God of Israel spread all the way to wherever were at.
It started with Israel.

from scratch · Jan 11, 2012

Strong in Him said:
You know, maybe I'm dense but I just don't see why people would argue for us being under the law.

The law, given at Sinai, was given to Moses and the nation of Israel. THEY were the ones who had been rescued from Egypt by God, and these were their instructions about how to live holy lives, in relationship with the God who had saved them and made his covenant with them. They were to be different from other nations - other nations did not have their covenant.
Circumcision was the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham; it wasn't part of the Mosaic law.

Then Jesus, the Messiah, came and told the Jews that he had come to fulfil the law - THEIR law. So the law was fulfilled in him, and before he died he told his disciples that the wine they were drinking represented his blood of the NEW covenant. This new covenant was prophesied by Jeremiah; if anyone was in any doubt, Jesus said that his blood was being shed for the forgiveness of sins.
I read a book once by a Jewish man who set out to prove from Scripture that his daughter was wrong to become a Christian, (you may be able to guess what happened!) In it he said that when a covenant was made it was ratified by the "cutting of the covenant". This covenant, made by God, was for the forgiveness of sins and was cut when God's Son was put to death on the cross.

So - Jesus fulfilled the Jewish law, and gave us the NEW covenant, (and a new command too, (see John 13:34) which was cut on the cross and sealed with his blood.
Paul teaches that if the Jews to who he was writing looked to the law to save them then they were saying that Christ died for nothing. He, a former Pharisee and zealous law keeper, taught that the Jewish law could not, and had never been able to, save the Jews.
So why on earth do some people teach that Gentiles have to be bound to a law that was never given to them, and was unable to save even those to whom it was given?

If the law had been able to save, and people able to keep it perfectly, there would have been no point in Jesus coming and dying in agony on the cross. The Jews could simply have said to the rest of the world, "this is how you become reconciled to God and find forgiveness; just keep his law. In fact, follow our example - we're his chosen, this is how to do it."
One glance at the OT should tell anyone that the Jews were totally incapable of keeping his law - even after they'd seen the miracle of the Red Sea and being sustained in the wilderness. The law, which was fulfilled in Jesus anyway, cannot save, so I don't see why people who never received it are now being urged to keep it.

Jesus saves. I could keep the Sabbath perfectly and abstain from pork, and yet I will not be loved or saved any more than I am now. It's the same for all of us.

Well said.

from scratch · Jan 11, 2012

Elder 111 said:
God said that not man. Is it that God is not clear? He did not say a day as a sabbath He said the Sabbath, the Seventh day. if you have a problem with that you have a problem with God.

Hi Elder 111,

Nice to see you. Been a while.

What is it about Deut 5:3 that you don't understand? It certianly points out that it is Israel only.

Frogster · Jan 11, 2012

tzadik said:
Being under the Law has nothing to do with Keeping God's commandments. Keeping God's commandments is obeying God.

Think about this for a second. Every other nation were pagan nations serving pagan gods and lost, without hope, strangers to the covenants and excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. (Alot like Ephesians 2:12) God chose Israel to reveal Himself to the nations. That is why He gave Israel His instructions for Holy Living, so they can live a life that pleases God and teach those who joined themselves to the One and Only God of Israel to do the same. (Alot like Matthew 28:19) It may seem foreign to you, but that was, is and continues to be God's plan. God revealed Himself to Israel, He sent His Messiah through Israel, and now everyone who believes in the Messiah and the God of Israel are no longer strangers to the covenants, (for example New Covenant which is made with the House of Israel) or the promises, (becoming fellowheirs with Abraham), because we have joined ourselves to the God of Israel.
So yes, He did not make His covenant with any other nations, but all the other nations were lost, and will continue to be lost until they join themselves, place their faith, fear, love and serve the God of Israel.

"THEIR" Law? No God's Law. The Messiah came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Do you know what that means? I know many forget that "the Prophets" are also included in Matthew 5:17. If Yeshua came to "fulfill" the Law and the Prophets in the way many understand the word "fulfill" (aka do away with, cancel, etc) then you would effectively be cancelling all the prophecies, and shadows of the good things still to come. This is exactly what Yeshua did NOT come to do. Fulfill does not mean do away with. How can He in verse 17 tell us that He "came to do away with the Law" and in the very next verse state that not even the smallest stroke of a letter of the Law will be removed until heaven and earth pass and ALL is accomplished (Luke 16:17 too)? Why would He take the time in verse 19 to stress that those who annul and teach against His commandments will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven, if He Himself came to annul them? So you see our understanding of Matthew 5:17-20 need to match up with...well even just the clear text there alone.

"Jesus fulfilled God's Law" What do you think that means? God the Son came to do away with God the Father's Law? Hardly. He couldn't be God the Son if He came to change or do away with anything the Father ordained. The question should be, why did He ordain and give His Law? What was the purpose? You yourself stated that it was to teach His people to live Holy Lives. Why would that change? The Law was never given for salvation, why then do you claim that the Law needs to be gone when the Savior arrives?

Again, not sure where you see anyone teaching that we will be saved by keeping God's Laws. No one is saved by keeping Any commandments. Ever.

The question should be---again---why did God give His Law to His people, if it wasn't to save them? Answer--to teach them how to walk in His ways. So why wouldn't we use the same instructions to teach us how to walk in His ways? Does God have more than one way? Does God have two different standards of Holy Living? No He doesn't. It's the same standard from the beginning. Why would it change? Aren't His ways perfect, righteous and good?

Again---The Law wasn't given to be kept for salvation. I agree, if Salvation was by the keeping of the Law, then we wouldn't need the Messiah. It's not possible to earn our salvation. It is a free gift, by grace and mercy of God through faith alone. Instead God gave His Law to teach His people to walk in His ways, delight in Him, love Him and love their neighbors.

Really? One glance at the "OT" and you'll see that no one kept the Law? are you serious? are you telling me that God gave His people Instructions that He knew they couldn't follow, and further punished them for not following them? You gotta be kidding me. What kind of a God would He be? Read Deuteronomy 30:11-14 to see what God tells them about the "difficultness" of His commandments. God doesn't lie. In fact you can even look at the "NT" and see time after time again--where believers are all keeping God's Law and zealous for His Law. [Luke 1:6, Acts 21:24, Acts 21:20, Luke 23:56 etc]
One good reason to Keep God's Instructions is because He instructed it.
2 Timothy 3:16 gives us plenty of other reason we should live our lives according to His Word. Psalm 119:1, Psalm 1, Psalm 19, John 14:15, 1 John 2, 1 John 5 the list goes on and on---all stressing the importance and value and joy and delight of keeping God's commandments.

How is keeping the Sabbath different from not stealing, or not worshiping false gods, or not lusting?

Do you really, really, think, Paul's churches, actually kept Sabbath?

Dude, the judaizers would love that! :clap:

That is what i keep trying to show you, no way, would paul want them in synagogues, or under sabbath laws etc.

Are you ever going to talk about how even the Jewish Christians in Antioch, were not living Torah?

1..1..1..

Frogster · Jan 11, 2012

The other things some MJ friends say, is that gentiles are not in the new cov, they say it was for judah and israel, yet, they want to take a verse out of the new cov, "law writting on hearts", and apply a verse out of the cov, they say is NOT for gentiles, to bind moses on gentiles, using a cov verse, they say that gentiles are not in.

go figure.

Oh, and some say the new cov has not started yet, at the same time they use said verse to bind moses.

tzadik · Jan 11, 2012

Frogster said:
Do you really, really, think, Paul's churches, actually kept Sabbath?

Dude, the judaizers would love that!

That is what i keep trying to show you, no way, would paul want them in synagogues, or under sabbath laws etc.

Are you ever going to talk about how even the Jewish Christians in Antioch, were not living Torah?

1..1..1..

Look at you go. "Paul's churches" What in the world does that mean?
Read Acts. When did they meet?
Do you even know what Judaizers are? Judaizers are those who either
A. impose manmade traditions and rules on top of God's commandments.
B. those who imposed manmade traditions and enforce them for salvation.
C. enforce legalistic observance to God's Law.

If you think Judaizers are those who encourage believers to Keep God's COmmandments, than you are calling Yeshua a Judaizer in Matthew 19:17. You're calling God a Judaizer in Exodus 15:26, You're calling Joshua a Judaizer in Joshua 22:5, You're calling David a Judaizer in 1 Kings 2:3, You are calling Nehemiah a Judaizer in Nehemiah 1:5, 9, You are calilng Ecclesiastes a Judaizer in Ecclesiastes 12:13, You are calling Daniel a Judaizer in Daniel 9:4, You're calling John a Judaizer in 1 John 2:3-4.
And ultimately you are calling all the saints who kept the commandments of God and their faith in Yeshua judaizers.
Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Foiled again.

Frogster · Jan 11, 2012

tzadik said:
Look at you go. "Paul's churches" What in the world does that mean?
Read Acts. When did they meet?
Do you even know what Judaizers are? Judaizers are those who either
A. impose manmade traditions and rules on top of God's commandments.
B. those who imposed manmade traditions and enforce them for salvation.
C. enforce legalistic observance to God's Law.

If you think Judaizers are those who encourage believers to Keep God's COmmandments, than you are calling Yeshua a Judaizer in Matthew 19:17. You're calling God a Judaizer in Exodus 15:26, You're calling Joshua a Judaizer in Joshua 22:5, You're calling David a Judaizer in 1 Kings 2:3, You are calling Nehemiah a Judaizer in Nehemiah 1:5, 9, You are calilng Ecclesiastes a Judaizer in Ecclesiastes 12:13, You are calling Daniel a Judaizer in Daniel 9:4, You're calling John a Judaizer in 1 John 2:3-4.
And ultimately you are calling all the saints who kept the commandments of God and their faith in Yeshua judaizers.
Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Foiled again.

it is called judaizing in scripture, as usual i post scripture.

Young's Literal Translation
But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, 'If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?

read rev 14 closely, it says faith in Christ, that was the key, otherwisr r u saying we are saved by commands? tHAT IS NOT WHAT JESUS TAUGHT IN JOHN 5;24, AND 3;18. is it?

YES OR NO, DID PAUL WANT HIS CHURCHES UNDER THE MOSAIC SABBATH?

Frogster · Jan 11, 2012

tzadik said:
Look at you go. "Paul's churches" What in the world does that mean?
Read Acts. When did they meet?
Do you even know what Judaizers are? Judaizers are those who either
A. impose manmade traditions and rules on top of God's commandments.
B. those who imposed manmade traditions and enforce them for salvation.
C. enforce legalistic observance to God's Law.

If you think Judaizers are those who encourage believers to Keep God's COmmandments, than you are calling Yeshua a Judaizer in Matthew 19:17. You're calling God a Judaizer in Exodus 15:26, You're calling Joshua a Judaizer in Joshua 22:5, You're calling David a Judaizer in 1 Kings 2:3, You are calling Nehemiah a Judaizer in Nehemiah 1:5, 9, You are calilng Ecclesiastes a Judaizer in Ecclesiastes 12:13, You are calling Daniel a Judaizer in Daniel 9:4, You're calling John a Judaizer in 1 John 2:3-4.
And ultimately you are calling all the saints who kept the commandments of God and their faith in Yeshua judaizers.
Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Foiled again.

Are gentiles in the new cov now, and is God writing fod and festival laws, on gentile hearts NOW? now?

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 11, 2012

from scratch said:
Hi Elder 111,

Nice to see you. Been a while.

What is it about Deut 5:3 that you don't understand? It certianly points out that it is Israel only.

Ya may have a point there.
Much like Deut 28 is about Israel only

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Rotherham) Deuteronomy 28:1 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto the voice of Yahweh thy God, to observe to do all his commandments which I am commanding thee to-day, then will Yahweh thy God set thee on high, above all the nations of the earth;
Rotherham) Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall be, if thou do not hearken unto the voice of Yahweh thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I am commanding thee to-day, then shall come in upon thee all these curses and shall reach thee:--

Rotherham) Deuteronomy 28:66 And thy life will be hung up for thee in front,--and thou wilt be in dread by night and by day, and wilt not trust in thy life.
67 In the morning, thou wilt say--Oh that it were evening! and in the evening, thou wilt say--Oh that it were morning! because of the dread of thy heart which thou wilt dread, and because of the sight of thine eyes which thou wilt see.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,................

tzadik · Jan 11, 2012

Frogster said:
it is called judaizing in scripture, as usual i post scripture.

Young's Literal Translation
But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, 'If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?

Again you don't see the effect your interpretations and applications cause to the rest of Scripture. You only see what you want that verse to say to prove your point. That's not how we study to show ourselves approved. That's how we continue building a strawhouse on straws. Not on the Firm foundation of the Word of God.
It's simple. If you call those who encourage believers to keep God's Instructions Judaizers--then almost everyone from Genesis to Revelation was a Judaizer

Frogster said:
read rev 14 closely, it says faith in Christ, that was the key, otherwisr r u saying we are saved by commands? tHAT IS NOT WHAT JESUS TAUGHT IN JOHN 5;24, AND 3;18. is it?

It's amazing how you see a clear verse that combines keeping God's commandments with our faith in Yeshua the Messiah---yet all you want to focus on is the "faith in Yeshua part". By all means have a field day with that, I'll even have one with you. But when you're done, you need to come back to the verse and see that it's not only about having our faith in Him, but also living a life that reflects that faith. And that's what Rev 12:17 and 14:12 talk about.
Read them again and again.
Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. According to you all these saints of God were judaizing while holding on to the testimony of Yeshua. Absolutely incorrect. They kept their faith in Yeshua and kept God's commandments. The way He ordained it from the beginning.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Frogster said:
YES OR NO, DID PAUL WANT HIS CHURCHES UNDER THE MOSAIC SABBATH?

Let me rephrase your question according to Scripture before I answer it.
"Did Paul want his churches under the mosaic sabbath?" - Frog
1. Paul doesn't own any churches last time I checked.
2. God's Sabbath is and always will be His Sabbath. His Holy Day. Not the "Mosaic Sabbath" It's God's!
So--
Did {or if he were still alive does} Paul encourage God's ekklesia to continue keeping His Sabbath?
ABSOLUTELY!

Markus6 · Jan 11, 2012

So does this mean I have to go to work EVERY day?

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 11, 2012

Frogster said:
Are gentiles in the new cov now, and is God writing fod and festival laws, on gentile hearts NOW? now?

Markus6 said:
So does this mean I have to go to work EVERY day?

Good question!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7550155/
Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

Frogster · Jan 11, 2012

tzadik said:
Again you don't see the effect your interpretations and applications cause to the rest of Scripture. You only see what you want that verse to say to prove your point. That's not how we study to show ourselves approved. That's how we continue building a strawhouse on straws. Not on the Firm foundation of the Word of God.
It's simple. If you call those who encourage believers to keep God's Instructions Judaizers--then almost everyone from Genesis to Revelation was a Judaizer

It's amazing how you see a clear verse that combines keeping God's commandments with our faith in Yeshua the Messiah---yet all you want to focus on is the "faith in Yeshua part". By all means have a field day with that, I'll even have one with you. But when you're done, you need to come back to the verse and see that it's not only about having our faith in Him, but also living a life that reflects that faith. And that's what Rev 12:17 and 14:12 talk about.
Read them again and again.
Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. According to you all these saints of God were judaizing while holding on to the testimony of Yeshua. Absolutely incorrect. They kept their faith in Yeshua and kept God's commandments. The way He ordained it from the beginning.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Let me rephrase your question according to Scripture before I answer it.
"Did Paul want his churches under the mosaic sabbath?" - Frog
1. Paul doesn't own any churches last time I checked.
2. God's Sabbath is and always will be His Sabbath. His Holy Day. Not the "Mosaic Sabbath" It's God's!
So--
Did {or if he were still alive does} Paul encourage God's ekklesia to continue keeping His Sabbath?
ABSOLUTELY!

but how can you possibly, say, paul would want to appease judaizers, and have his churches, the body, whatever, being under sabbath?

lets settle up..

answer this,

how could they get under moses in galatia, because of judaizers, heading into law, 4;21, 5;3 AND AT THE SAME TIME, GET INTO A PAGAN CALENDAR?

prove me wrong...

use the text, lets see it.

Frogster · Jan 11, 2012

tzadik said:
Again you don't see the effect your interpretations and applications cause to the rest of Scripture. You only see what you want that verse to say to prove your point. That's not how we study to show ourselves approved. That's how we continue building a strawhouse on straws. Not on the Firm foundation of the Word of God.
It's simple. If you call those who encourage believers to keep God's Instructions Judaizers--then almost everyone from Genesis to Revelation was a Judaizer

It's amazing how you see a clear verse that combines keeping God's commandments with our faith in Yeshua the Messiah---yet all you want to focus on is the "faith in Yeshua part". By all means have a field day with that, I'll even have one with you. But when you're done, you need to come back to the verse and see that it's not only about having our faith in Him, but also living a life that reflects that faith. And that's what Rev 12:17 and 14:12 talk about.
Read them again and again.
Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. According to you all these saints of God were judaizing while holding on to the testimony of Yeshua. Absolutely incorrect. They kept their faith in Yeshua and kept God's commandments. The way He ordained it from the beginning.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Let me rephrase your question according to Scripture before I answer it.
"Did Paul want his churches under the mosaic sabbath?" - Frog
1. Paul doesn't own any churches last time I checked.
2. God's Sabbath is and always will be His Sabbath. His Holy Day. Not the "Mosaic Sabbath" It's God's!
So--
Did {or if he were still alive does} Paul encourage God's ekklesia to continue keeping His Sabbath?
ABSOLUTELY!

Are gentiles in the new cov now, and is God writing food and festival laws, on gentile hearts NOW? now?

tzadik · Jan 11, 2012

Frogster said:
but how can you possibly, say, paul would want to appease judaizers, and have his churches, the body, whatever, being under sabbath?

lets settle up..

answer this,

how could they get under moses in galatia, because of judaizers, heading into law, 4;21, 5;3 AND AT THE SAME TIME, GET INTO A PAGAN CALENDAR?

prove me wrong...

Are you serious? Horses don't fly Frog...
You don't know what Judaizers means? What is a Judaizer?

What Commandment did God say to; "Remember", that the world wants to forget?

Great is thy faithfulness

Follower of the Messiah

from scratch

Guest

Great is thy faithfulness

Member

Follower of the Messiah

from scratch

Guest

from scratch

Guest

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Follower of the Messiah

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Follower of the Messiah

Veteran

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Follower of the Messiah

Similar threads