Daniel 12: 7: Scattering the Power of the Holy People

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Daniel 12: 7: Scattering the Power of the Holy People

In Daniel 10: 8-21 an angel sent from God comes to Daniel to give him a prophecy.

But when the angel finally comes to Daniel he says in Daniel 10: 12-14 "Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14.Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

The prophecy the angel gave to him is in Daniel Chapter 11 - but there is no clear break
in the text between the end of Chapter 11 and the shorter Chapter 12. There are verses from Daniel 11: 33 to Daniel 11: 45, the end of the chapter, which seem to depart from the description of the actions of "he" who is the actor in these last verses of the chapter.

For example, Daniel 11: 33 says "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days." This prophecy on those with understanding instructing many is continued in Daniel 12: 3, "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

"They" who turn many to righteousness are the same "they" who understand and instruct many in Daniel 11: 33. But in Daniel 12: 3 the text adds the turning of those instructed to righteousness, and that they who are wise will shine as the brightness of the firmament and as the stars for ever and ever."

Righteousness is important in understanding who the holy people are in Daniel 12: 7.

Remember that the angel told Daniel that he came to make him understand "what shall befall thy people in the latter days." But in the churches the usual view is that Daniel 11 is only about a series of actions in the struggle between the King of the North and the King of the South. To most Christians now, the prophecy was exhausted at the end of the conflict between the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid empires, with the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes by disease in 164 BC, who was the King of the North, or of Syria as opposed to Egypt of the South.

There are, however, scenarios in Daniel 11 which can be seen to fit historical events in much later periods of history, even up to the early 21st century. And Why would an angel from God be sent to Daniel the prophet to tell him the forthcoming history of the battles between the Seleucid and Ptolemaic empires? This history does not reach the time when Christ was born during the Roman empire. There is more to Daniel 11 than the story of battles between the house of Ptolemy and the house of Seleucus before the birth of Christ. This "scripture of truth" (Daniel 10: 21) is not likely to be limited to political and military struggles between two ancient dynasties.

There is a statement in Daniel 12: 1 which sounds a lot like what Christ said in Matthew 24: 21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Daniel 12: 1 says "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Lets get to the very interesting part in Daniel 12: 5-10. "Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9. And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

When I tried to post the remainder of the text as a comment, I got the same error message, that I must remove the links.

This starts with an image of two men standing on either side of a river, with a man not in the river but "upon the waters of the river." This has to be Jesus Christ, who walked on the water in Matthew 14: 25-29. The two men on either side of the river could represent those in the valley of decision in Joel 3: 14, or the two parts cut off in Zechariah 13: 8-9, or perhaps two groups of people who claim to be of God, physical Israel and the "church."


The important part is in verse 7, "...when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."


The end will come at the time when the holy people are scattered.
But look at that the New International Version has for this part of verse 7. The NIV for some reason leaves out "he" and says "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things shall be completed."


This is interesting. Broken is different from scattered. And what does breaking or scattering the power of the holy people mean? On a fleshly or political level, breaking the power of the holy people could mean that Christians in America toward the end will not be as important a group in determining elections of presidents, etc as they were just a few years ago. But breaking or scattering the power of the holy people has a more significant spiritual meaning.
Who are the holy people? Strict classical dispensationalism postulates clearly that God now has two people, the physical Israelites and the "church." And in its insistence on interpreting scripture in a consistent literal way, Israel is always physical Israel, and never can be Israel reborn in Jesus Christ. And dispensationalism does not accept Paul's division of Israel into two groups in Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 25-26. Therefore, for many or most, in the "church" the holy people in Daniel 12: 7 has to be physical Israel, the Israelites, the chosen people of God prior to God's transformation of physical Israel to Israel reborn in Christ.


But the problem is that to be holy a people must be in Christ and have his righteousness. Man has no righteousness of his own, but only takes on the righteousness of Jesus Christ. There was a small remnant of physical Israel who accepted Christ as Paul shows in Romans 11 and elsewhere in the New Testament it is clear some Israelites became fully born again.


The holy people in Daniel's prophecy of Daniel 12 have to be Christians, and those that understand among the people and instruct many are Christians, though this can apply also to the apostles in the First Century. Those in Daniel 12: 3 who turn many to righteousness, the righteousness Christ gives them, and who shine forever, are Christians.


The holy people of Daniel 12: 7 are Christians, completely born again in Christ, for otherwise they could not be holy. To be a holy people they would have to have the righteousness of Christ attributed to them.


The NIV says the power of the holy people is to be broken, with the implication that their power - political and/or spiritual - is destroyed, or almost completely destroyed.


What does the key Hebrew word translated as scattered, broken, and shattered mean?

One possibility is that the system is identifying the following as a "link" :


The Hebrew word, in Daniel 12: 7, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Number 5310, naphates, is said to mean "to dash to pieces, break in pieces, dispersed, scatter." It could mean break in pieces or to scatter the holy people.

It's not about the gentiles or the church....

Daniel 12
The End Times
1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects YOUR PEOPLE, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

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Revelation 12:7-9
Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

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Ezekiel 20:34-38
I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered—with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath. 35 I will bring you into the wilderness of the nations and there, face to face, I will execute judgment upon you. 36 As I judged your ancestors in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will judge you, declares the Sovereign LORD. 37 I will take note of you as you pass under my rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant. 38 I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me. Although I will bring them out of the land where they are living, yet they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

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Ezekiel 22:18-22
“Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her. 22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the LORD have poured out my wrath on you.’”

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Godly Jews

Revelation 12:13
When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

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Seen in Daniel 1:2 and as the 144,000 in Revelations

Matthew 24:22
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

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Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

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Verses 8-13 seem more inclined to be about the church and gentiles.
ie:days of grace

Daniel 12:8-13
I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

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1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

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Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

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Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

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John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

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Originally posted by texian
In Daniel 10: 8-21 an angel sent from God comes to Daniel to give him a prophecy.

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The One Man of Daniel 10:5 compares to Jesus Christ of Revelations 1:13

Daniel 10:5
I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist.

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Revelation 1:13
and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

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Around His waist was for fighting but around the breast was as high priest. Also in Daniel He was there as a messenger while in Revelations He's there amongst the churches.

Originally quoted by texian
This starts with an image of two men standing on either side of a river, with a man not in the river but "upon the waters of the river." This has to be Jesus Christ, who walked on the water in Matthew 14: 25-29. The two men on either side of the river could represent those in the valley of decision in Joel 3: 14, or the two parts cut off in Zechariah 13: 8-9, or perhaps two groups of people who claim to be of God, physical Israel and the "church."

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Your saying the same thing as to the man in linen but it's hard to imagine Christ being waylaid by the prince of darkness. Yet they both are dressed in linen? That places them both as being either messengers or Christ?

Great topic on scattering the power of the people though. I'm intriqued! The only thing that I could find was Luke 21:24 where Jesus said
""They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
in answer to Daniel 12:7
The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
It might answer the timeframe.

I just tried to post some additional comments on the scattering of the power of the holy people and again, got this error message.

"The following errors occurred with your submission:

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There were no links or images in my comment. It looks like something is not working right here - or something is going on that is not being described in the error messages. The reason for the error messages may not be links or images, but the length of the text, or who knows what?

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.


Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

The sheep are those who are in Christ, who are of his flock.

They are like the potters clay that is mingled throughout this evil world of iron, but just as clay will not mix with iron, neither shall the holy seed(spiritually minded) mingle with the seed of man(fleshy minded).

texian said:

There are two other places in the Old Testament where holy people is
used.

Its used also in Daniel 8: 24, "And his power shall be mighty,
but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall
prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy
people."

"He" is not Alexander. In the ancient time line
"He" is fulfilled first by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and the Holy People are
physical Israel. However, in the end times, a king who understands
dark sentences is said to "destroy the mighty and holy people," who are Christians.

Who the holy people are depends upon which time line is involved. If the time line indicated as present or future as in prophecy is in the Old Covenant the holy people would be physical Israel, though only a remnant were faithful. If the timeline is in the New Covenant, its the Christians. In Daniel 12: 7
the very end time is indicated clearly by "...when he shall have accomplished to scatter
the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

Though Antiochus Epiphanes was the original model who appears to fulfill Daniel 8:44 in the ancient timeline, in the last days
when the transgressors are come to the full, the king (or kings, world
leaders) of fierce countenance and who understand dark sentences shall stand up (Daniel 8: 23) is
more important in end time prophecy.

Dark sentences is another subject which is interesting. I have heard it said that this is understanding of end
time metaphoric language. Certainly the dragon and his human minions
at the highest level understand something of metaphor. And dark
sentences may refer to the understandings and utterances of men high
in the secret societies, who are world leaders. And - interestingly,
dark sentences can refer to the use of the Hegelian dialectic, to the
dialectical materialism of Marxism and its more recent popularity as a
manipulative and deceptive attitude and belief changing procedure in
dialogue used in many parts of society. Forms of the dialectic are
habitually used by many people now.

The holy people are also in Isaiah 62: 12, "Go through, go through
the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the
highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.
Behold the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, say ye to
the daughter of Zion, Behold thy salvation cometh; behold his reward
is with him, and his word before him. And they shall call them, The
holy people, The redeemed of the Lord: and they shall be called,
Sought out, A cry not forsaken."

Jesus Christ is here in Isaiah 62: 10-12. The holy people are his people,
those born again in him (John 3: 1-8), of any race or ethnic origin (Galatians 3: 28-29) the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5, and the chosen generation of I Peter 2: 9.

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I don't know where your getting the destuction of Christians?????? Is it just from the following verse that you think this dark horse will destroy the Christians or from somewhere else? It says to me that he will cause deciet to flourish. You haven't mention of a rapture either that Thessalonians connects this part of scripture to.

Daniel 8:23-25
23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

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There's a blur between Epiphanes and Anti-Christ because it's the nature of the beast being described. The Romans were partly responsible for Epiphanies downfall. It wasn't w/o human hands.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Daniel 2:34
While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

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Physical Israel is sustained by God Himself until Christ comes

Isaiah 59:16
He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.
20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the LORD.
21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the LORD.

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Obviously this shows the transition from old to new covenent that's in the mind of the Lord, from physical to spiritual.
Phophesy always has an overlapping of time when both are in effect until it progresses into the next. fi: the day that Jesus read in Nazereth was only partly fulfilled mid-sentence before the wrath of the Lord comes.

InSpiritInTruth said:

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.


Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

The sheep are those who are in Christ, who are of his flock.

They are like the potters clay that is mingled throughout this evil world of iron, but just as clay will not mix with iron, neither shall the holy seed(spiritually minded) mingle with the seed of man(fleshy minded).

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The time frame of that would be Peter weeping bitterly at his betrayal.

Jedidia said:

The time frame of that would be Peter weeping bitterly at his betrayal.

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The Lord often shows things on a small scale first and in a natural way first, to reflect on a much greater spiritual meaning.

Deuteronomy 4:27
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

Deuteronomy 30:3
That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Nehemiah 1:8
Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:

Psalm 106:27
To overthrow their seed also among the nations, and to scatter them in the lands.

Jeremiah 30:11
For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Jeremiah 31:10
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Ezekiel 6:8
Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

Ezekiel 12:15
And they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall scatter them among the nations, and disperse them in the countries.


Zechariah 7:14
But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.

Because Israel smote their shepherd, they were scattered among the nations.



http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+7:13-14&version=KJV

Bringing that up to the times of Christians

Luke 21:24
And they will fall by the edge of the sword and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Romans 11:25
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be ignorant of this mystery (lest you be wise in yourselves), that hardness has come upon Israel in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in;

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What was the mystery? That some were saved by grace at that time and others hardened their hearts.

Romans 11: 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

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That's given as a warning to us today or we'll be weeping just as bitterly as Peter was when Jesus turns to look upon us.
Relaionship isn't a negotiable thing for those who are children of God, but fellowship is. Remaining steadfast hopefully keeps us from scattering now that we have not just the Spirit upon us but in us.

Daniel 8: 23 says "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."

But the New International Version has "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise."

"Understanding dark sentences" is something different from being a "master of intrigue."

Sentences in Daniel 8: 23 is from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 2420, chiydah, meaning "a puzzle; hence a trick, conundrum, dark saying, sentence, speech, hard question, proverb, riddle."

Chiydah is about speech or the use of verbalization.

II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, plus Matthew 24: 11,
I Timothy 4: 1, II Timothy 3: 13, and II Peter 2: 1 about the falling away and many false prophets deceiving Christians are relevant to the weakening of the spiritual power of Christians in the end times. So is Luke 13: 21 on the leavening of Christians.

The majority of Christians can be seen to go into apostasy in the end times and in that way lose their spiritual - and political - power. But there are verses which say that God will preserve a Remnant who do not lose their spiritual power, though they may be so small in number and not organized that they have little political power.
Isaiah 10: 22-23, Zephaniah 3: 12-13 and Romans 9: 27 all talk about the Remnant. A Remnant existed when physical Israel fell away and will and does exist when organized Christians have fallen away.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." II Thessalonians 2: 3-4

In Revelation 12: 5-6 and Revelation 12: 14, 17 a "woman" goes to the wilderness where she gives birth to a "man child" and her "remnant," in verse 17. The wilderness is metaphoric for being outside of any organized group. The people of God got out of Egypt by going into the literal wilderness. Getting out of "Egypt" could be a metaphor for leaving the apostate churches. So the end time Christian Remnant is not organized and not together in a physical place, though they are in substantial unity in Christ.


The Remnant is scattered over the world.