What scriptures do you think Paul used?

from scratch said:

Apparently some that call themselves Christians engage themselves in this as a lifestyle very readily. What a shame. Not to speak of the mockery involved.

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The law didn't make them do it. One man says the devil made me do it, another man says the law made me do it, but no one says "I" did it. I guess it takes an "I" mentality when dealing with blame, and it takes a Christ mentality when dealing with the solution. We are the problem, Christ is the solution, the law is holy and the commandment holy, just and good.

Frogster said:

7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death

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Frogster:

I've only got a few minutes, but what translation are you using, anyway?

Romans 7:5

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

"WHICH WERE BY THE LAW". I see nothing about "arousal" either here or in the original Greek. Again, I ask what translation you're using. Anyhow, herein lies the fatal flaw in your "logic". In your mind, you seem to believe that sin didn't exist until the law came and that the law somehow "aroused" it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Romans 5:13

"For until the law SIN WAS IN THE WORLD: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Sin PRECEDED the law, so what are you going on about with all of this "arousal" stuff? The law "aroused" NOTHING. It merely showed WHAT WAS ALREADY THERE. Got it? As Paul said:

Romans 7:7

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? GOD FORBID. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Again, PAUL WAS ALREADY COVETING/LUSTING BEFORE THE LAW CAME. He just didn't realize it until he was confronted with the commandments which are HOLY, AND JUST, AND GOOD (Romans 7:12). You've put the proverbial cart before the horse in insisting that it is the law that actually "arouses" sin as opposed to what the scriptures actually teach...

THAT SIN PRECEDED THE LAW AND THE LAW MERELY EXPOSED IT.

Care to try again? By the way, while you're at it, please address what I've actually said here. I know you well enough to know that you like to change course when backed into a corner. Thanks.

visionary said:

depends on what you define as Judaism... if you are talking about Mount Sinai education that God spoke.. I would not ignore anything God said. Men have opinions. God has declarations.

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then why oh why, does heb 12;18, say, the have not come to sinai?

the whole book is an exhortation, not to go back to the old cov.

prove me wrong please.

lets talk hebrews..

God's Word said:

Frogster:

I've only got a few minutes, but what translation are you using, anyway?

Romans 7:5

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

"WHICH WERE BY THE LAW". I see nothing about "arousal" either here or in the original Greek. Again, I ask what translation you're using. Anyhow, herein lies the fatal flaw in your "logic". In your mind, you seem to believe that sin didn't exist until the law came and that the law somehow "aroused" it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Romans 5:13

"For until the law SIN WAS IN THE WORLD: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Sin PRECEDED the law, so what are you going on about with all of this "arousal" stuff? The law "aroused" NOTHING. It merely showed WHAT WAS ALREADY THERE. Got it? As Paul said:

Romans 7:7

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? GOD FORBID. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Again, PAUL WAS ALREADY COVETING/LUSTING BEFORE THE LAW CAME. He just didn't realize it until he was confronted with the commandments which are HOLY, AND JUST, AND GOOD (Romans 7:12). You've put the proverbial cart before the horse in insisting that it is the law that actually "arouses" sin as opposed to what the scriptures actually teach...

THAT SIN PRECEDED THE LAW AND THE LAW MERELY EXPOSED IT.

Care to try again? By the way, while you're at it, please address what I've actually said here. I know you well enough to know that you like to change course when backed into a corner. Thanks.

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Aroused of KJV, which WERE BY THE LAW..or NASB, aroused by law, same thing!

Please, sin is a transgression of a command, and that was the transgression of adam. So? But 7;7, says THOU SHALL NOT..clearly moses, the command dude..that was the context of 7.

How does this disprove that the 10, did not arouse sin, and sin did not use law?

Now, u got a big burden, and I was waiting for this..


How can Paul die twice?

It says the command came, sin revived, and Paul died..

Ok, how does he die twice? He had to be alive in the middle, to die when the command came. He was dead in Adam when the law came, so the died of 7:9. had to be as a Christian. No? The antonyms have to jive, if he died spiritually when the command came, then the alive of 9 had to be Spiritual too, so when was Paul spiritually alive, to die when the command came before salvation?

How did paul have two parts, to say, it was not him, but sin living in him, in 7:17, and 7:20? had to be a dual natured Christian. When else was there two parts?

7:9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

what did sin use, and why is sin dead, APART from law?


7:8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Frogster said:

what did sin use, and why is sin dead, APART from law?


7:8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

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I see you have learned nothing since last we spoke.

Deut 5:29 said:

I see you have learned nothing since last we spoke.

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welcome back cowboy..

can u shoot that ruger good yet, or do you shoot, like u post scripture?

OFF THE TARGET!

glad to see ya back bro...

So if i try to obey the law which says "love thy neighbor as myself", do you think i'll actually end up hating him because the law will arouse sin? Or how about this, if the law says don't steal and i think about stealing something, is it because the law says don't steal? IOW, did the the law make me think about stealing?

God's Word said:

Frogster:

I've only got a few minutes, but what translation are you using, anyway?

Romans 7:5

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

"WHICH WERE BY THE LAW". I see nothing about "arousal" either here or in the original Greek. Again, I ask what translation you're using. Anyhow, herein lies the fatal flaw in your "logic". In your mind, you seem to believe that sin didn't exist until the law came and that the law somehow "aroused" it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Romans 5:13

"For until the law SIN WAS IN THE WORLD: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Sin PRECEDED the law, so what are you going on about with all of this "arousal" stuff? The law "aroused" NOTHING. It merely showed WHAT WAS ALREADY THERE. Got it? As Paul said:

Romans 7:7

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? GOD FORBID. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Again, PAUL WAS ALREADY COVETING/LUSTING BEFORE THE LAW CAME. He just didn't realize it until he was confronted with the commandments which are HOLY, AND JUST, AND GOOD (Romans 7:12). You've put the proverbial cart before the horse in insisting that it is the law that actually "arouses" sin as opposed to what the scriptures actually teach...

THAT SIN PRECEDED THE LAW AND THE LAW MERELY EXPOSED IT.

Care to try again? By the way, while you're at it, please address what I've actually said here. I know you well enough to know that you like to change course when backed into a corner. Thanks.

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Have you no idea how the human mind works? Have you ever tried to get somebody to dos something by saying they can't do it? It was a staple challenge in my life. Pride says oh yeah watch this.

Frogster said:

welcome back cowboy..

can u shoot that ruger good yet, or do you shoot, like u post scripture?

OFF THE TARGET!

glad to see ya back bro...

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His foot is better now. Wonder if he learned to point that ruger at the target and not his foot before pulling the trigger.

11822 said:

So if i try to obey the law which says "love thy neighbor as myself", do you think i'll actually end up hating him because the law will arouse sin? Or how about this, if the law says don't steal and i think about stealing something, is it because the law says don't steal? IOW, did the the law make me think about stealing?

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sooner or later, it will getcha!

it got Paul, and he knew law better than most, lived under it, preached it, and suprise, murdered under it, and in hindsight, said he lived in lusts, in eph 2;3, and titus 3;3, all while under law. Even as a Christian law got em too..


The cross...the cross...law, sin and flesh died there, we put off the old man, that is the answer, read rom 6:6, it is the heart of Christianity, Paul gave that as the answer in rom 6, to not live out the sinful nature, that law aroused.


The cross.....the cross......

yes, don't steal or kill...duh..we know that....elementalism teaching, don't do this, don't do that, vs maturity, u decide.


That is why the cross has nothing to do with law.

Frogster said:

Aroused of KJV, which WERE BY THE LAW..or NASB, aroused by law, same thing!

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Frogster:

No, they're not the same thing. In fact, they're not even close. C'mon...you and from scratch have been arguing about the Greek pretty extensively in this thread. Show me/us where "aroused" is anywhere in the Greek. It doesn't exist. What then was Paul saying? Simply that the law showed him what his PRE-EXISTING sinful passions were by showing him what sin actually is in God's eyes. Again, the law did NOT "arouse" sin...it merely exposed it for what it ALREADY WAS via commandments which are HOLY, JUST AND GOOD.

Frogster said:

Please, sin is a transgression of a command, and that was the transgression of adam. So?

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"So?"? Are you serious? The whole crux of your unscriptural argument is that the law "arouses" sin and, yet, sin was in the world more than 2,000 + years (do the math) before the law was even given. What then "aroused" this 2,000 + years worth of sin? Your argument is totally baseless. As the scriptures teach, sin was in the world BEFORE the law and it didn't "arouse" anything. Rather, it merely exposed sin for what it actually was.

Romans 7:13

"Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. BUT SIN, THAT IT MIGHT APPEAR SIN, working death in me by the which is good; THAT SIN BY THE COMMANDMENT MIGHT BECOME EXCEEDING SINFUL."

Frogster said:

But 7;7, says THOU SHALL NOT..clearly moses, the command dude..that was the context of 7.

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And...? How does this help your case any? It doesn't. Again, YOU are the one who insists that the law "arouses" sin and, yet, sin was clearly in the world for more than 2,000 + years BEFORE the law was ever given. What "aroused" those 2,000 + years worth of sin? Your silence is deafening. Anyhow, in Romans 7:7, Paul clearly states that the law is NOT sin, but rather that it merely teaches one what sin is.

Romans 7:7

"What then shall we say? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

I don't see one word about "arousal" there, but only words about THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN. You?

Frogster said:

How does this disprove that the 10, did not arouse sin, and sin did not use law?

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You're kidding, right? The burden is not upon me to disprove your unscriptural assertions, but rather the burden is upon YOU to prove them. Go ahead...show us where "arouse" is even hinted at in the Greek (or in the English, for that matter). It isn't there. Again, in regards to "sin using the law", what did the 2,000 + years worth of sin PRIOR TO THE GIVING OF THE LAW use? Like I said, you're putting the proverbial cart before the horse. SIN PRECEDED THE LAW and the law merely gave knowledge of such sin. An uncomfortable truth for you, perhaps, but truth, nonetheless.

Frogster said:

Now, u got a big burden, and I was waiting for this..

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"A big burden"? Only in your mind, as we're about to see momentarily. You were "waiting for this"? Waiting for what? To be set straight? Your wait is over.

Frogster said:

How can Paul die twice?

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He didn't. Once again, the burden of proof is upon you to prove that he did. For those who don't already know, here is what Frogster believes:

Romans 7:9

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

Frogster's (mis-) interpretation of this goes something like this:

Paul was dead in Adam.

Paul was made alive by faith in Christ.

Paul was then confronted with God's law and died twice.

What nonsense. For starters, as I've already pointed out to you before, PAUL WAS A PHARISEE AND TOTALLY FAMILIAR WITH GOD'S LAW PRIOR TO HIS CONVERSION TO CHRIST. In fact, Paul's own testimony of himself includes the claim that he was blameless in regards to the righteousness which was by the law.

Philippians 3:5-6

"Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless..."

Paul, as a Pharisee who was not only familiar with the law, but also considered himself to be blameless regarding the righteousness of such, HAD AN ENCOUNTER WITH JESUS CHRIST AND CONSEQUENTLY REALIZED THAT THE HOLY, JUST AND GOOD COMMANDMENTS THAT HE THOUGHT THAT HE WAS BLAMELESSLY KEEPING ACTUALLY CONDEMNED HIM AND SHOWED HIM HIS OWN NEED FOR A SAVIOR. It was at this point, that Paul got the revelation (Remember, the law brings the knowledge of sin) that he was "dead in trespasses and sins". Was he already "dead in Adam"? Sure, he was...but he wasn't aware of it until this point. In your beliefs, you have Paul not even being confronted with God's commandments until AFTER his conversion to Christ. What a nonsensical and unscriptural position.

Frogster said:

It says the command came, sin revived, and Paul died..

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Again, you have a Pharisee not even being confronted with the law until after his conversion to Christ. Paul was confronted with the law LONG BEFORE THAT, but he didn't understand the law's purpose until AFTER his encounter with/conversion to Christ.

Frogster said:

Ok, how does he die twice?

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He doesn't. Show where scripture says that he does? As I said, Paul, as a Pharisee who was not only familiar with the law, but also, in his self-righteousness, thought himself to be blameless in regards to the righteousness of the law, didn't realize that he was really "dead in trespasses and sins" until AFTER his encounter with Christ. This isn't when he "died", but merely when he received THE KNOWLEDGE OF SUCH...just as his epistle to the Romans teaches.

Frogster said:

He was dead in Adam when the law came, so the died of 7:9. had to be as a Christian. No?

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No. Even though he was "dead in Adam", he didn't get that revelation until AFTER his conversion. IOW, this isn't when he actually "died", but simply when he received THE KNOWLEDGE OF SUCH...just as his epistle to the Romans teaches.

Frogster said:

The antonyms have to jive, if he died spiritually when the command came, then the alive of 9 had to be Spiritual too, so when was Paul spiritually alive, to die when the command came before salvation?

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Oh, but they do jive. Even as I type, there are MULTITUDES of self-righteous people in this world who don't yet realize that they're actually "dead in trespasses and sins" DUE TO THEIR OWN SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. Such was also the case with Paul, PRIOR TO his encounter with Jesus Christ. Again, he was already "dead", but he simply did have THE KNOWLEDGE OF SUCH. Seriously, is this so hard for you to understand?

Frogster said:

How did paul have two parts, to say, it was not him, but sin living in him, in 7:17, and 7:20? had to be a dual natured Christian. When else was there two parts?

7:9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

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Paul didn't have "two parts". If you'd like to, then maybe we can have an in depth study on what "sin" actually is. Oh, I know that sin is a transgression of the law, but it also existed BEFORE THE LAW and it's also personified all the way back in Genesis chapter 4. IOW, sin isn't merely disobeying God, but also obedience to Satan.

Well, this whole conversation is unnecessary anyway, as, in this same epistle to the Romans, Paul wrote:

Romans 14:8-10

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, IT IS BRIEFLY COMPREHENDED IN THIS SAYING, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Just as Jesus summed up all of the commandments in two (Love God and love your neighbor), Paul summed up all of the commandments in regards to our fellow man in one:

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Pssssttttt...

That commandment that "briefly comprehends" all of the other commandments CARRIED OVER FROM LEVITICUS 19:18!

Bad, bad Paul...quoting OLD TESTAMENT COMMANDMENTS to Christians.

You've got a lot to learn, my friend. A lot to learn.

Frogster said:

what did sin use, and why is sin dead, APART from law?


7:8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

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Dear God, open this man's eyes...

You still don't get it, do you? Sin wasn't really "dead". It existed way back since the garden of Eden and that was 2,000 + years BEFORE the law was ever given. Seriously, when will you ever accept THIS FACT? When Paul spoke of sin being "dead", he was merely saying that he had no knowledge of what sin actually was until he really understood the implications of the HOLY, JUST AND GOOD COMMANDMENTS.

Frogster said:

sooner or later, it will getcha!

it got Paul, and he knew law better than most, lived under it, preached it, and suprise, murdered under it, and in hindsight, said he lived in lusts, in eph 2;3, and titus 3;3, all while under law. Even as a Christian law got em too..


The cross...the cross...law, sin and flesh died there, we put off the old man, that is the answer, read rom 6:6, it is the heart of Christianity, Paul gave that as the answer in rom 6, to not live out the sinful nature, that law aroused.


The cross.....the cross......

yes, don't steal or kill...duh..we know that....elementalism teaching, don't do this, don't do that, vs maturity, u decide.


That is why the cross has nothing to do with law.

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Its not elementalism vs maturity. Its common sense vs this notion that the law arouses sin in Christians.

Sin arouses anger..

1 Kings 16:2
“I lifted you up from the dust and appointed you ruler over my people Israel, but you followed the ways of Jeroboam and caused my people Israel to sin and to arouse my anger by their sins.

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Over and over again.. God has revealed His displeasure with people who claim to know Him and who still sin. .. It happened in the past and it is still happening today..

1 Kings 16:13
because of all the sins Baasha and his son Elah had committed and had caused Israel to commit, so that they aroused the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, by their worthless idols.

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and guess what the results are the same.. death is the result...

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

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Frogster said:

welcome back cowboy..

can u shoot that ruger good yet, or do you shoot, like u post scripture?

OFF THE TARGET!

glad to see ya back bro...

Click to expand...

You're one to talk since you shoot yourself in the foot every time you post.

God's Word said:

yeshuasavedme:

Yesterday, I asked you...

http://www.christianforums.com/t7606648-18/#post59003010



...and, to my knowledge, you never answered my question. Like it or not, many people were saved BEFORE there was ever any such thing as the nation of Israel or a natural born Jew, which is derived from Judah, Jacob's/Israel's fourth son. IOW, the interpretation that you seem to be attempting to force upon Jesus' words to the Samaritan woman whom He encountered at the well simply does not fit. An unfortunate truth for you, apparently, but a truth, nonetheless.

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Actually, I have answered the question in the many posts I have made on this thread showing why the Law, what the Law, etc.
The foundation of the doctrine of Christ is what the Living Oracles are all about. Yes, from the time of the fall, there were "saved" people, but their salvation was by faith in the Seed of the Woman who was promised to us while we were yet seed in the loins of our first father, Adam, and their salvation by faith did not gain them entry back into Eden from whence Adam got cast down and out of, but they had to wait in Sheol -in comfort, as described by Enoch- for "the Day the LORD made" from the foundation of the world [Psalm 118; and also Abraham enacted it in the sacrifice of Isaac, as written in the Book of Jasher], which made an end of the remembrance of sin before the Glory they were separated from since the fall -the first death of the spirit and loss of son-ship.

There is one thread from the beginning; that scarlet thread running through the history of the world, beginning with the promise of the Seed of the Woman [turns out to be Zion of the Spirit, personified], who would die and restore all things; but it was a mystery which was given to Enoch to write of in parables, and which was committed only to the namesake people of the New Man name to rehearse, in the Oracles committed only to them to rehearse.
The author of Hebrews [whom I think was Paul, but it could have been Apollos, but ancient writers tell us it was Paul] states that if one is to be a teacher in the Church of Jesus Christ, then they must needs understand the abcs -the first principles- of the Oracles of God.
The Doctrine of Christ did not just come to the world 2,000 years ago, and does not stand alone, but stands on what the Law and the prophets were given to write of, about the Salvation that was to come, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile, from the time of the fall.

Now we know that the Patriarchs who trusted in God, who sought God, and who preached righteousness [like Enoch, Noah, and Abraham, etc...] were saved by faith, but they did not receive the end of the first death...

[edit insertion: Enoch was transformed in regeneration and is in heaven in the body made for Glory, to fulfill the Law of the firstborn son of the Redeemer/Kinsman who marries the barren widow, and raises up his firstborn in the name of the deceased first husband so that the inheritance is not lost: a legal transaction was done in Enoch's translation as firstborn son of the Living Spirit/Christ, before ever Christ was come in flesh, so as to preserve the inheritance which would be ransomed, itself, in the Atonement]...

and all who died in the first death =separated from the Glory in Mount Eden above and from that Glory indwelling] had to go to Sheol below, to wait for the promised Atonement's fulfillment.

It might interest you to know that history does not begin with Moses, on this matter, either, for Noah wrote of the Atonement in a fragment included in Enoch [Ethiopian Enoch], and offered sacrifices in accord with that which those who sought and taught righteousness from the time of the fall offered, but only in the Law committed to the namesake people of the New Man name do we have the mystery in Oracles, for the namesake people to rehearse until the fulfillment of each and every one.
They are not all fulfilled and they all will be. The Law is not the means to Salvation, but is the Waymark/Sign [heavenly Zion's signpost]; being the "Oracles" of the Person and work of the Messiah, as God come in flesh as Kinsman/Redeemer.

The namesake people were the first to be offered and to eat of the fruits of the vineyard they were the keepers of.
-So some of the keepers did not believe, and for that... the Gentiles are being collected to come feast at the table prepared in Mount Zion for all nations; but Salvation is of the Jews, for to them is committed the Teaching/Doctrine of the Christ/Messiah, and they alone rehearsed His Oracles, and shall continue to do so, when the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in" -ingathered in the harvest of sons of God to the heavenly "Barn" from whence the Seed is come [as pr Haggai chapter 2], until each and every single one is totally fulfilled.


Enoch wrote of the Law as good, which was to come, but Enoch was not a Jew, and Enoch told us that in the last days those who keep the Law would be saved. So there is a thread even, of what the Law is, which did not bring salvation, but is inherent in the New Man nature of those who are saved -who are born again.

Enoch said the Law given to Noah was for sinners, in His parable of the ten weeks. Paul knew Enoch's writings quite well, often quoting from it as Jesus did.

chapter 93
4"And after me there shall arise in the second week great wickedness,
And deceit shall have sprung up;
And in it there shall be the first end.
"And in it a man shall be saved;
And after it is ended unrighteousness shall grow up,
And a law shall be made for the sinners [given to Noah]

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Enoch said the Law given through Moses was for all generations: The Decalogue was given, and is forever, and only the New Man has it as His core nature, with the True Sabbath [signed in the seventh Day given to the namesake people], being that Salvation which one is in which causes an end of the labors we perform in Adam, which are fruitless and vain, without eternal reward; and one enters into the works of righteousness written for us from the beginning of creation, to walk in, which comes of regeneration of Spirit into the New Man nature.

93:5"And after that in the third week at its close
A man shall be elected as the plant of righteous judgement, [Abraham]
And his posterity shall become the plant of righteousness for evermore.
Week Four: The Law of Moses and the Tabernacle
6"And after that in the fourth week, at its close,
Visions of the holy and righteous shall be seen,
And a law for all generations and an enclosure shall be made for them.

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Enoch also wrote this:

108 Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, and keep the law in the last days.

2Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil, and an end of the might of the transgressors.

3And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there....

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yeshuasavedme said:

The redundancy is this:
Peter calls Paul's writings "writings";
Paul calls Luke's writings "writings".
"Scripture" is "writings" it is one word.
And yes, Revelation is the Word of God, which is the Last Word from Jesus Christ as the end of the book proclaims. No one can add anything to it or take anything away.
Paul's writings are writings that are not the foundation for the Church nor new teaching of any sort, but opening of understanding of Jesus from the Writings and instructions to his own churches -which he founded in Christ's Gospel-on how to behave on matters they asked him about and to govern them with his writings. His writings do not apply to all the Churches of Jesus Christ in all the Church age, though one may learn from them. They are not "Thus saith the LORD".

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Revelation may be the last book in the cannon but it belongs way before that. Read Ephesians and Colossians and you will see a new calling (another company of redeemed) bound for Heaven where Jesus sits now. This revelation was hid IN God until revealed to Paul in 63 AD while in prison in Rome. Read those two epistles VEEEEEERRRRRRY carefully. I will not get bogged down in this discussion but Paul had many revelations from the ascended Lord.

God's Word said:

Dear God, open this man's eyes...

You still don't get it, do you? Sin wasn't really "dead". It existed way back since the garden of Eden and that was 2,000 + years BEFORE the law was ever given. Seriously, when will you ever accept THIS FACT? When Paul spoke of sin being "dead", he was merely saying that he had no knowledge of what sin actually was until he really understood the implications of the HOLY, JUST AND GOOD COMMANDMENTS.

Click to expand...

You don't get it, you just stuff a page, how is that a way to settle things? Lets be square, heck, I am just a little frog, who does not know the Word, certainly you can descend to a verse by verse debate...? No books pleae, it is a forum. Humor me. Thought for thought, post by post, verse by verse please.




It clearly says, sin operated, through law, when the command came, and was dead, apart from law. Why?



What did sin use, and why was sin dead, APART FROM THE LAW? What happens under law? Opposites matter bro.

7:8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

visionary said:

Sin arouses anger..

Over and over again.. God has revealed His displeasure with people who claim to know Him and who still sin. .. It happened in the past and it is still happening today..
and guess what the results are the same.. death is the result...

Click to expand...

actually the law works wrath, but the promise of Abraham did not, romans 4;14-15.