Europe and America In Danger

Antigone · Oct 29, 2011

tsr said:
I agree with you on your statement Wilders its my way or the highway. He is quite bitter but like anyone else he is entitled to his opinion like everyone else.

But that's the whole point. You could be forgiven for not knowing this as you don't live in the Netherlands and probably don't watch the parliamentary debates, but Wilders' style of debate on whichever subject doesn't accept dissent of any kind. He's not a particularly skilled debater, but he waltzes over his opposition with fearmongering and angry rhetoric that I find respectless and crass. And I'm not alone in that.

tsr · Oct 29, 2011

Antigone said:
But that's the whole point. You could be forgiven for not knowing this as you don't live in the Netherlands and probably don't watch the parliamentary debates, but Wilders' style of debate on whichever subject doesn't accept dissent of any kind. He's not a particularly skilled debater, but he waltzes over his opposition with fearmongering and angry rhetoric that I find respectless and crass. And I'm not alone in that.

I stand corrected you are right I don't watch parliamentary debates.... I have a question for you since you do. In the U.S.Tony Blair is not well accepted by the general public, it has been said he has allowed numerous Arabs into your country is this true??? Let me re-phrase that by thousands?? Is this a fair question??

SithDoughnut · Oct 30, 2011

tsr said:
I stand corrected you are right I don't watch parliamentary debates.... I have a question for you since you do. In the U.S.Tony Blair is not well accepted by the general public, it has been said he has allowed numerous Arabs into your country is this true??? Let me re-phrase that by thousands?? Is this a fair question??

Tony Blair has never been in charge of anything in the Netherlands...

tsr · Oct 30, 2011

SithDoughnut said:
Tony Blair has never been in charge of anything in the Netherlands...

Interesting.....Who runs the country is it parliament? In the U.S. to pass a bill Congress and Senate must approve. President has veto power. That is why we can;t get anything accomplished they are always bickering and fighting between themselves.!!!!!!

Kalevalatar · Oct 30, 2011

tsr said:
Interesting.....Who runs the country is it parliament? In the U.S. to pass a bill Congress and Senate must approve. President has veto power. That is why we can;t get anything accomplished they are always bickering and fighting between themselves.!!!!!!

Say, the Prime Minister of the Netherlands together with his cabinet and the parliament would be a good guess.

Antigone · Oct 30, 2011

Okay, here goes nothing...

tsr said:
Interesting.....Who runs the country is it parliament?

Parliament under the Prime Minister. Tony Blair's the former prime minister of the UK. Our PM is Mark Rutte, who runs a minority cabinet with the support of the Freedom Party, which is Wilder's party. The other two parties in the cabinet are the centrist Christian Democrats and the moderate right wing Liberal party. The Freedom Party aren't a member of the government and don't fill any cabinet positions, but they have vowed to support the cabinet in most of its decisions. This means that anything the right-of-center cabinet wants to do to enable immigration is going to be rejected by the Freedom Party (not that they want to enable immigration) and effectively, it's being cut.

In the U.S. to pass a bill Congress and Senate must approve. President has veto power. That is why we can;t get anything accomplished they are always bickering and fighting between themselves.!!!!!!

I think you'll find a multi-party parliament makes it difficult to get anything done as well.

Anything the Freedom Party doesn't like (and there's plenty they don't like) requires support of the opposition to pass through parliament and then through the senate, where even with the support of the Freedom Party they're in the minority, so they require either support from one of the left-wing parties or from the rather extremist Reformation Party (Christian fundamentalists), who hold only one or two seats and have enough power to tip the balance one way or the other.

So basically to get anything done the cabinet has to please both the (anti-extremism) Freedom Party and the (extremist) Reformation Party OR the Labour Party, who are still mad at being left out of the coalition with practically the same number of seats as the Liberal Party and are politically VERY far away from the current cabinet.

And then there's also the Socialist Party, who aren't so much politically relevant as PR-savvy; the Christian Party, who are moderately left-wing but against euthanasia, abortion and gay marriage and thus in almost everything the polar opposite of the Liberal Party; the Green Party, who were drifting to the right, couldn't sell it to their members, lost their leader and are now drifting mostly aimlessly; the Animal Party, who are small but make a lot of noise; and the Democrat Party, whose leader seems to have a personal problem with mr. Wilders (and trust me, this is both justified and enthusiastically reciprocated). With the severe cutbacks this cabinet is making, it's not the most popular, and the opposition is VERY keen to show it isn't part of this and opposes it in every way. Put all of this together and you've got a general picture of the current political landscape in the Netherlands and the amount of bickering it delivers.

FWIW, I don't mind this cabinet most of the time, even though they're quite right-wing and I'm not. I loathe Wilders and think he should stop moaning and start contributing, and I want to repeatedly poke the education secretary with a sharp stick, but apart from that I can live with it.

tsr · Oct 30, 2011

Antigone said:
Okay, here goes nothing...

Parliament under the Prime Minister. Tony Blair's the former prime minister of the UK. Our PM is Mark Rutte, who runs a minority cabinet with the support of the Freedom Party, which is Wilder's party. The other two parties in the cabinet are the centrist Christian Democrats and the moderate right wing Liberal party. The Freedom Party aren't a member of the government and don't fill any cabinet positions, but they have vowed to support the cabinet in most of its decisions. This means that anything the right-of-center cabinet wants to do to enable immigration is going to be rejected by the Freedom Party (not that they want to enable immigration) and effectively, it's being cut.

I think you'll find a multi-party parliament makes it difficult to get anything done as well.

Anything the Freedom Party doesn't like (and there's plenty they don't like) requires support of the opposition to pass through parliament and then through the senate, where even with the support of the Freedom Party they're in the minority, so they require either support from one of the left-wing parties or from the rather extremist Reformation Party (Christian fundamentalists), who hold only one or two seats and have enough power to tip the balance one way or the other.

So basically to get anything done the cabinet has to please both the (anti-extremism) Freedom Party and the (extremist) Reformation Party OR the Labour Party, who are still mad at being left out of the coalition with practically the same number of seats as the Liberal Party and are politically VERY far away from the current cabinet.

And then there's also the Socialist Party, who aren't so much politically relevant as PR-savvy; the Christian Party, who are moderately left-wing but against euthanasia, abortion and gay marriage and thus in almost everything the polar opposite of the Liberal Party; the Green Party, who were drifting to the right, couldn't sell it to their members, lost their leader and are now drifting mostly aimlessly; the Animal Party, who are small but make a lot of noise; and the Democrat Party, whose leader seems to have a personal problem with mr. Wilders (and trust me, this is both justified and enthusiastically reciprocated). With the severe cutbacks this cabinet is making, it's not the most popular, and the opposition is VERY keen to show it isn't part of this and opposes it in every way. Put all of this together and you've got a general picture of the current political landscape in the Netherlands and the amount of bickering it delivers.

FWIW, I don't mind this cabinet most of the time, even though they're quite right-wing and I'm not. I loathe Wilders and think he should stop moaning and start contributing, and I want to repeatedly poke the education secretary with a sharp stick, but apart from that I can live with it.

I appreciate your input, was not familiar with the governmental setup of the country. Here in the states very little is being accomplished. The only way that can be done for example is: If the President, cabinet and senate had the majority vote of one side or the other of the party (Democrat or Republican) however it is very hard to have depending how they are voted in. You may have seen the news already about the demonstrations through out the U.S. people are fed up with the government and politicians.

Self Improvement · Oct 30, 2011

Antigone said:
Okay, here goes nothing...

Parliament under the Prime Minister. Tony Blair's the former prime minister of the UK. Our PM is Mark Rutte, who runs a minority cabinet with the support of the Freedom Party, which is Wilder's party. The other two parties in the cabinet are the centrist Christian Democrats and the moderate right wing Liberal party. The Freedom Party aren't a member of the government and don't fill any cabinet positions, but they have vowed to support the cabinet in most of its decisions. This means that anything the right-of-center cabinet wants to do to enable immigration is going to be rejected by the Freedom Party (not that they want to enable immigration) and effectively, it's being cut.

I think you'll find a multi-party parliament makes it difficult to get anything done as well.

Anything the Freedom Party doesn't like (and there's plenty they don't like) requires support of the opposition to pass through parliament and then through the senate, where even with the support of the Freedom Party they're in the minority, so they require either support from one of the left-wing parties or from the rather extremist Reformation Party (Christian fundamentalists), who hold only one or two seats and have enough power to tip the balance one way or the other.

So basically to get anything done the cabinet has to please both the (anti-extremism) Freedom Party and the (extremist) Reformation Party OR the Labour Party, who are still mad at being left out of the coalition with practically the same number of seats as the Liberal Party and are politically VERY far away from the current cabinet.

And then there's also the Socialist Party, who aren't so much politically relevant as PR-savvy; the Christian Party, who are moderately left-wing but against euthanasia, abortion and gay marriage and thus in almost everything the polar opposite of the Liberal Party; the Green Party, who were drifting to the right, couldn't sell it to their members, lost their leader and are now drifting mostly aimlessly; the Animal Party, who are small but make a lot of noise; and the Democrat Party, whose leader seems to have a personal problem with mr. Wilders (and trust me, this is both justified and enthusiastically reciprocated). With the severe cutbacks this cabinet is making, it's not the most popular, and the opposition is VERY keen to show it isn't part of this and opposes it in every way. Put all of this together and you've got a general picture of the current political landscape in the Netherlands and the amount of bickering it delivers.

FWIW, I don't mind this cabinet most of the time, even though they're quite right-wing and I'm not. I loathe Wilders and think he should stop moaning and start contributing, and I want to repeatedly poke the education secretary with a sharp stick, but apart from that I can live with it.

Sounds better than the crap we have.

Antigone · Oct 30, 2011

Self Improvement said:
Sounds better than the crap we have.

Maybe once you have the government, but in times like these it takes a lot of effort to get a government together in the first place. It took us a three or four months. The Belgians have been at it for more than a year and they're still gridlocked.

tsr · Oct 30, 2011

I wanted to receive another opinion from the clergy on the initial letter by G. Wilder. So I sent the speech given by him to a pastor of my former church I attended. Here is his opinion. He is sending me in the mail a rebuttal. When I receive the mail I will share it with the members. Here is his email.
=====================================================
I agree with many of the points of Geert Wilders speech. Many in our
country are unaware of the worldview of the devout Muslim, that all are
to be converted to Allah and that, in general, they do not believe in
separation of church and state (they do believe in Shiria law.
You should get the article on Tuesday. Part of the problem of the
writer's point of view is that, though he may be correctly interpreting
the Quran, the Islam's loudest voices disagree with him.

In Christ,

Fr. Bob

SithDoughnut · Oct 30, 2011

tsr said:
Part of the problem of the
writer's point of view is that, though he may be correctly interpreting
the Quran, the Islam's loudest voices disagree with him.

This is something I've always found odd when it comes to Islamophobic arguments. I've seen it done on this forum occasionally. Let's assume that the Qur'an does command Sharia law to be imposed and all infidels to be killed; if the vast majority of Muslims are "misinterpreting" these instructions and not following them, what exactly is the problem? It's incredibly strange how Islamophobes seem to complain about Islam commanding violence, but then complain when Muslims don't follow this command. It's arguments like that which demonstrate that the arguer has no interest beyond attacking Muslims.

Supreme · Oct 30, 2011

Antigone said:
Maybe once you have the government, but in times like these it takes a lot of effort to get a government together in the first place. It took us a three or four months. The Belgians have been at it for more than a year and they're still gridlocked.

That's true. The Belgians still are finding it difficult to form a government. Hopefully there won't be any anti-Muslim extremists like Geert Wilders in their government.

tsr · Oct 30, 2011

SithDoughnut said:
This is something I've always found odd when it comes to Islamophobic arguments. I've seen it done on this forum occasionally. Let's assume that the Qur'an does command Sharia law to be imposed and all infidels to be killed; if the vast majority of Muslims are "misinterpreting" these instructions and not following them, what exactly is the problem? It's incredibly strange how Islamophobes seem to complain about Islam commanding violence, but then complain when Muslims don't follow this command. It's arguments like that which demonstrate that the arguer has no interest beyond attacking Muslims.

I will be receiving the response by Tues and I will post it on this thread, it should be interesting. The letter is in response to G Wilders position to a degree.

Antigone · Oct 30, 2011

Supreme said:
That's true. The Belgians still are finding it difficult to form a government. Hopefully there won't be any anti-Muslim extremists like Geert Wilders in their government.

Well, they have the Flemish Interest party...

mpok1519 · Oct 31, 2011

tsr said:
In America today people are a bit more cautious and nervous since the 911 attack. We should be more tolerable but we are not at this time.

says who?

I'm just as TOLERANT of any culture now as I was before nine eleven.

The OK city bombing happened, and I wasn't wary of white, American, Christian ex-servicemen.

mpok1519 · Oct 31, 2011

Antigone said:
And then there's also the Socialist Party, who aren't so much politically relevant as PR-savvy; the Christian Party, who are moderately left-wing but against euthanasia, abortion and gay marriage and thus in almost everything the polar opposite of the Liberal Party; the Green Party, who were drifting to the right, couldn't sell it to their members, lost their leader and are now drifting mostly aimlessly; the Animal Party, who are small but make a lot of noise; and the Democrat Party, whose leader seems to have a personal problem with mr. Wilders (and trust me, this is both justified and enthusiastically reciprocated). With the severe cutbacks this cabinet is making, it's not the most popular, and the opposition is VERY keen to show it isn't part of this and opposes it in every way. Put all of this together and you've got a general picture of the current political landscape in the Netherlands and the amount of bickering it delivers.

The Animal party?

Antigone · Oct 31, 2011

mpok1519 said:
The Animal party?

Yep.

I was a bit disappointed when their seat in parliament wasn't actually taken by a cow or a pig. It might have been a valuable improvement on the dialogue.

ACougar · Oct 31, 2011

Agreed.

mpok1519 said:
says who?

I'm just as TOLERANT of any culture now as I was before nine eleven.

The OK city bombing happened, and I wasn't wary of white, American, Christian ex-servicemen.

Supreme · Oct 31, 2011

Antigone said:
Yep.

I was a bit disappointed when their seat in parliament wasn't actually taken by a cow or a pig. It might have been a valuable improvement on the dialogue.

Wow, watching the opening to the video on that link was horrible. Made me guilty to be a meat eater.

If we just pursued free range instead of intensive farming, then I guess we could all feel a little better about eating meat.

wanderingone · Oct 31, 2011

tsr said:
I wanted to receive another opinion from the clergy on the initial letter by G. Wilder. So I sent the speech given by him to a pastor of my former church I attended. Here is his opinion. He is sending me in the mail a rebuttal. When I receive the mail I will share it with the members. Here is his email.
=====================================================
I agree with many of the points of Geert Wilders speech. Many in our
country are unaware of the worldview of the devout Muslim, that all are
to be converted to Allah and that, in general, they do not believe in
separation of church and state (they do believe in Shiria law.
You should get the article on Tuesday. Part of the problem of the
writer's point of view is that, though he may be correctly interpreting
the Quran, the Islam's loudest voices disagree with him.

In Christ,

Fr. Bob

I'm not sure why we should care what Fr. Bob thinks about devout Muslims.
Someone being "devout" means nothing unless you know what that particular person considers being "devout" about their religion.

Many American Christians do not believe in the separation of church and state so how is that something that should shock me?

I am always wary of people who are zealots regardless of which religion they happen to be claiming as the justification for their views. I'm just as concerned about people who are fanatical about any cause or belief.

Until I moved from NYC I lived and worked with many people who came from Muslim backgrounds. Like most people who call themselves Christian they are generally of that faith in a nominal way.. they were raised in it, so when asked what religion they are they call themselves that. Like any other faith most people I know who are Muslim cringe at fanatical Muslims just like Christians who cringe at zealots of their own faith, and like most people I know of any faith or background, they get a little agitated when people not of the same background start picking at, targeting, insulting and claiming to know everything about them.

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