... me becoming Lutheran? ... what do you think?

Hey all,

I've been a Presby all my life and most of it as a part of the PCUSA.

But for many reason's, that I won't bother stating because they are pretty obvious to everyone, I've decided it's time to find a new church.

But over the years; after spending much time in the Word, I've grown away from being a solid 5 point Calvinist and I'm not really interested in finding a more conservative Presbyterian Church.

1. First and foremost I'm solidly Evangelical. Using the term "evangelical" here in the classic reformed orthodox sense indicating that I'm centered on the Gospel.

2. I take a more exclusivist view of salvation, believing that people have to have explicit knowledge of and put their faith and trust in Christ.

3. I'm firmly solid on my belief on substitutionary atonement.

4. I'm not really convinced in the "real presence" though, but that's not a hill to die on for me.

5. I take a more literal approach to Genesis

6. I'm definitely Amillennial.

7. I haven't read a lot of Luther, but I do appreciate his more dialectic hermeneutic and or approach in understanding Scripture.

8. I do hold a high regard towards the Sacraments, including the proclamation of the Word and that Grace is extended through them.

9. I am firmly a paedobaptist.

10. I believe in Covenant Theology

11. I do believe that individual believers can lose their salvation


I do take a very strong view of sin. I believe that there should be a focus on it in the life of the Church. So I'm looking for a Church who addresses it and takes sanctification seriously. I am looking for a Church who believes in the true Gospel and preaches and teaches it.

So what do you all think, could I be a Lutheran?

I would say you're on your way, though only embarking on the road. You still seem to hold a lot of Calvinist ideas. Still, my friend Paula did at the beginning and she remarked that entering the Pastor's class really opened a lot of shuttered windows (she came from a Pentecostal/Nazarine background).

What I would suggest doing is visiting a few LCMS or WELS churches in your area. You will have to be a touch careful with the LCMS congregations. They have a tendency of being somewhat... inconsistant. The teaching is almost always good, usually spot on. It's the rest of it that can get a bit... liberal. WELS is a rock-ribbed hard-line Lutheran sect (though slightly influenced by the Reformed movement). They're convinced of their rightness to an extreme degree, however for all of that, are very careful to be on the 'Lutheran' path and often display a charming humility in that. Both are aiming for that, 'Narrow Door,' mentioned by our Lord.

Now, I have a quotation for you. It's from John 6:53-58:

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son Of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Woever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

As to salvation Jesus said in the same chapter of John (6:65), "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

During his last supper with the twelve Jesus said (enhancement mine): "...This is my body, broken for you..." "...This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many..."

As to real presence, why do you take a literal view of Genesis and not take the Lord Of Life himself at his word?

Lutherans have no explanation on how wine and bread become the very blood and flesh or our Lord. We just take Him at his word and leave it at that. I don't know of a single translation that changes Jesus' words to say, '...This represents my body broken for you...' or '...this represents my blood...' Which is what the Zwinglians, Calvanists, Westlians, and Anabaptists all claimed. The Lord made it plainly clear what his intentions were. Also, in I Cor. the Apostle Paul mentions that people were dying from taking Communion. How could one die from plain wine and bread?

Can one lose thier salvation? Well... that's a toughie and for the most part, I'll leave that one for the more qualified to answer. This much I will say though: our Lord did say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." I would think that which the Father has enabled you to do would be completed successfully. However, we also carry the taint of Adam, thus are able, in fact quite willing (in that natural Adamic self), to turn our backs on the Lord. That work which the Lord has begun in you He will bring to completion. I would think those who hear the word and respond yet fall away later are those whom the Lord was speaking of in the Parable of the Tares.

Welcome to the Lutheran forums and thank you for making me dig in my Bible again. I always enjoy doing that.

Studeclunker said:

What I would suggest doing is visiting a few LCMS or WELS churches in your area. You will have to be a touch careful with the LCMS congregations. They have a tendency of being somewhat... inconsistant. The teaching is almost always good, usually spot on. It's the rest of it that can get a bit... liberal. WELS is a rock-ribbed hard-line Lutheran sect (though slightly influenced by the Reformed movement). They're convinced of their rightness to an extreme degree, however for all of that, are very careful to be on the 'Lutheran' path and often display a charming humility in that. Both are aiming for that, 'Narrow Door,' mentioned by our Lord.

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Thank you for the very thoughtful reply Studeclunker. I have in fact visited the two more conservative Lutheran Churches near me; one being LCMS and the other WELS. The WELS church was a little more suitable for my family but they were both very nice.

Now, I have a quotation for you. It's from John 6:53-58:

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son Of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Woever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

As to salvation Jesus said in the same chapter of John (6:65), "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

During his last supper with the twelve Jesus said (enhancement mine): "...This is my body, broken for you..." "...This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many..."

As to real presence, why do you take a literal view of Genesis and not take the Lord Of Life himself at his word?

Lutherans have no explanation on how wine and bread become the very blood and flesh or our Lord. We just take Him at his word and leave it at that. I don't know of a single translation that changes Jesus' words to say, '...This represents my body broken for you...' or '...this represents my blood...' Which is what the Zwinglians, Calvanists, Westlians, and Anabaptists all claimed. The Lord made it plainly clear what his intentions were. Also, in I Cor. the Apostle Paul mentions that people were dying from taking Communion. How could one die from plain wine and bread?

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This does make sense. I have done a lot of thinking about this; I have also spent some time in the Roman Catholic and Anglican Church.

But your absolutely right; if I take a more literal approach to other area's why not our Lord's words concerning Communion.

Welcome to the Lutheran forums and thank you for making me dig in my Bible again. I always enjoy doing that.

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Thank you.

Your theology sounds like you are on your way especially if you become convinced of the real presence.

But just make sure you go to a LCMS or WELS Lutheran church. The WELS is very conservative the the LCMS is moderatly so. Theologically there are only a few differences between the WELS and the LCMS. The ELCA is especially liberal and the NALC and LCMC are somewhat liberal or moderate.

I was born and raised Presbyterian. Studied the Reformed confessions and catechisms. Ordained an elder; served as a Stephen minister. But the more I studied Scripture and doctrine, the more I got hung up on some of those TULIP leaves. When we moved about 10 years ago and looked around for a church, we ended up visiting an LCMS congregation. I've been Lutheran for five years now. So it CAN be done! *grin*

For me, the shift came primarily from focusing more on Christ and Him crucified, and less on God's sovereignty. Not that God is not sovereign, but that it seems that His sovereignty is so much a cornerstone of Reformed theology that they can lose sight of the cross at times. Or it sure felt like that to me. Lutheran doctrine was like a tall glass of water after running through a dusty desert for me. It all seemed so clear after all the TULIP discussions I'd been in.

synger said:

I was born and raised Presbyterian. Studied the Reformed confessions and catechisms. Ordained an elder; served as a Stephen minister. But the more I studied Scripture and doctrine, the more I got hung up on some of those TULIP leaves. When we moved about 10 years ago and looked around for a church, we ended up visiting an LCMS congregation. I've been Lutheran for five years now. So it CAN be done! *grin*

For me, the shift came primarily from focusing more on Christ and Him crucified, and less on God's sovereignty. Not that God is not sovereign, but that it seems that His sovereignty is so much a cornerstone of Reformed theology that they can lose sight of the cross at times. Or it sure felt like that to me. Lutheran doctrine was like a tall glass of water after running through a dusty desert for me. It all seemed so clear after all the TULIP discussions I'd been in.

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I belive that most Lutherans would tell you that Christ Crucified is also the greatest expression of God's soviergnty.

synger said:

I was born and raised Presbyterian. Studied the Reformed confessions and catechisms. Ordained an elder; served as a Stephen minister. But the more I studied Scripture and doctrine, the more I got hung up on some of those TULIP leaves. When we moved about 10 years ago and looked around for a church, we ended up visiting an LCMS congregation. I've been Lutheran for five years now. So it CAN be done! *grin*

For me, the shift came primarily from focusing more on Christ and Him crucified, and less on God's sovereignty. Not that God is not sovereign, but that it seems that His sovereignty is so much a cornerstone of Reformed theology that they can lose sight of the cross at times. Or it sure felt like that to me. Lutheran doctrine was like a tall glass of water after running through a dusty desert for me. It all seemed so clear after all the TULIP discussions I'd been in.

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SYNGER!!!

Good to see ya!