Folks Of Non-Christian Faith Traditions

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This sounds like L. Ron Hubbard! Are you saying that Christ revealed Himself to the Muslims contradicting His own Christian nature to the arabic peoples? That would be a confusing Christ....

God has revealed Godself in a myriad of ways to differing peoples, to assert, as some have done here that this is not the case is to both belittle God's work in others cultures and times and to make God particular. Neither is a theological position I can take because, quite simply, Jesus made it clear in the parable of the Sinner & the Pharisee that it is not a position God takes.
 
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MKJ

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Wayseer,
Not so, what about Baal? What about a different Jesus that the NT warns against.
So atheists believe in Jesus? This was Jesus speaking, you wont find Muslims agreeing with that.

Yes we would, what you are proposing is seen by many as humanism and I agree.

Or yours? Having cited the scriptures, and not least the differences between the Holy Biblical testimony and the Quran for Islam, how can you attribute either to gurneyhalleck1?
Having affirmed there is only one true God how can you assume he is suggesting their is? Can you read carefully what he has written, namely that there are false gods but only one true God?
 
The Biblical testimony refers to false gods and a different Jesus, asking questions like this is only going to invite the logical response how come you dont believe the Bible?
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Do you really think that the Church Father's didn't know what the Bible says? Because that seems to be what you are implying - that they didn't know or care what Christ says in Scripture.

What you might consider is that Scripture is not as clear on this as you think.
 
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MKJ

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We're actually talking about this topic in TAW right now. I'm stuck in a mindset where I can't rationalize how free will wouldn't inhibit God's sovereignty? It seems that for God to be sovereign and omipotent and awesome, He would know exactly what is going to happen to us long before it happens. Well, we all agree that he is prescient and knows the future and is outside of linear time. That being said, for free will to exist in a way He would have to make Himself ignorant to our natures and predispositions and proclivities when designing us in order for free will to take place, wouldn't He? When He designs us, He knows us intimately and makes us a certain way PLUS He is in control of our surroundings and I can't fit a scenario into my mind where God doesn't not only control the nature, but the nurture! He puts stumbling blocks in our way, He puts good in our path, He allows evil on our path. So between designing us and being the potter and we the clay (as Paul says in Romans 9), and knowing and controlling our environments and interactions (God makes things happen for a reason), and being aware of our outcomes before He designs us, I can't see how free will could ever enter the scene?

Well, I don't think God would have had to create us remaining ignorant of our natures or what we would in actuallity choose. He would simply have to create us despite all those things, whatever we might choose.

As far as our free will impinging on God's power. Yes, this is a common claim by Calvinists. My thought is that this is simply a way of restricting God to human views on what power is about. That is why the Calvinists are always talking about God's sovereignty - they are saying, as an absolute limit, that a sovereign God cannot give anything up. And I phrase that purposefully - they are limiting God in the same way that those who say that God could never become incarnate because it is incompatible with his majesty, his perfection, his limitlessness.

It is just saying that it is impossible for God to give up anything to his creation. Taken to its logical conclusion you end up with a Platonic God that can't move outside itself at all. And it is a God who is diametrically opposed to a God who is born as a baby and dies a criminal's death on the cross - who gives up everything, including his own will, for creation.

So my suggestion would be, to understand how God's providence can encompass free will, meditate on the Passion and the Nativity.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Do you really think that the Church Father's didn't know what the Bible says? Because that seems to be what you are implying - that they didn't know or care what Christ says in Scripture.
Um. Where have I mentioned the church fathers?

What you might consider is that Scripture is not as clear
on this as you think.
Um. To me its clear enough, what you must mean is it isnt clear to you.
 
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Colabomb

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Buddhists and Christian monks have prayed together for decades. There are national organizations that have built on what Thomas Merton and Thich Nhat Hanh have taught us, as well as the Dalai Lama.

I believe that there is little conflct. A Buddhist can come to Christ and still keep his meditative practices, that focus of the Way of Compassion. They have no god. I understand that this is somewhat of an exaggeration since there are so many schools of Buddhism, but almost all their teachings could have taught by followers of Jesus. Of course, the cultural context and metaphors are very different.

IMHO, the barrier in the East is the conduct of Christians toward each other and toward our fellow man, as Gandhi pointed out. We Christains just don't attract others by our example of love, as was the case was the case at the time of Acts.


Buddhism is indeed facinating and I'm always interested in seeing the buddhist take on various issues. But there is a very clear and logical barrier between Christianity and Buddhism.

The value of desire. In buddhist thought, all desire brings suffering. Pleasure can be derived from the moment and from the things that are now, but to want anything is only to bring suffering and pain, regardless of what that desire is.

In Christianity, desire can be a bad thing (often called lust in a negative context) but it can also be a wonderful thing. We are drawn to God, Christians are made to want certain things. Christians are not called to free themselves from desire, but to desire the correct things.
 
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But the ultimate goal of Buddhism is the end of the belief in the soul, the atman, the ego and the sense of "I." And this journey is completely driven by one's own effort. God does not come into the picture in the least. It is at best an agnostic religion. It is full of truths as are religions are, but in the end, Christ or God in general, is not even a factor and the self-help approach along with rejection of the soul is what makes it objectionable.

Buddhism is indeed facinating and I'm always interested in seeing the buddhist take on various issues. But there is a very clear and logical barrier between Christianity and Buddhism.

The value of desire. In buddhist thought, all desire brings suffering. Pleasure can be derived from the moment and from the things that are now, but to want anything is only to bring suffering and pain, regardless of what that desire is.

In Christianity, desire can be a bad thing (often called lust in a negative context) but it can also be a wonderful thing. We are drawn to God, Christians are made to want certain things. Christians are not called to free themselves from desire, but to desire the correct things.
 
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mark46

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I agree with all that you have posted. BTW, "sharing the Way" is an approach that many in the East are open to.

BTW, I am reminded of the advice of Francis of Asissi> We should def itely share the Way. If absolutely necessary, we should use words.

Define fellow seeker. Yes, most of them are seeking God, and should be respected for that. But we still have the responsibility to share the Way with them should we have the opportunity.

We should respect them and their traditions. Mocking a man for praying will not show him Christian love. Desecrating their holy books will not show them Christian Love. We are to Love all men, regardless of whether they are on the Way.


We should absolutely protect their rights. Firstly, it ties into Christian love, do unto others what you would have them do to you. I would want people to come to my aid if my religious liberties were taken, so I will do the same for them.

Secondly, and more pragmatically, in the United States it becomes easier to unravel Constitutional law once there is precedent. If Muslims cannot build a mosque, it becomes easier to ban the building of a church.

We definitely should work with them regarding charity and the like. Doing our master's work is always good, no matter who does it. Hungry children need fed, and it doesn't matter if its a Muslim, Christian, or Jewish Hand ladeling the soup.

I love learning about other religions personally, and if I ever have children I would certainly encourage them to learn about the world around them. But we should be certain to remember the Truth that has been revealed to us, and not lose sight of it or compromise it.

I do see an insular attitude from many Christians recently, no question. I believe it is important to love (and not in a condescending manner either) all people, and show them the respect and compassion we would want for ourselves.

This is particularly relevant to me as some of my closest friends are nonbelievers. Through these relationships, and one in particular, I have learned how to engage with people who believe differently than me, without downplaying or ignoring the difference.
 
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MKJ

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Um. Where have I mentioned the church fathers?

When I talk about theologians in the history of the Church, I mean the Church Fathers. They have never understood other monotheistic religions as talking about a "different" God.

Um. To me its clear enough, what you must mean is it isnt clear to you.

Thinking things are simpler than they are is an error as much as thinking they are more complicated.
 
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What other monotheistic religions? Are you referring perhaps like to Neo-Platonism, etc.? Because most religions in the Hellenstic world were polytheist. Even Mithras and Isis and Magna Mater cults in Rome incorporated other gods and a pantheon was implicitly part of the equation.

When I talk about theologians in the history of the Church, I mean the Church Fathers. They have never understood other monotheistic religions as talking about a "different" God.



Thinking things are simpler than they are is an error as much as thinking they are more complicated.
 
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MKJ

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What other monotheistic religions? Are you referring perhaps like to Neo-Platonism, etc.? Because most religions in the Hellenstic world were polytheist. Even Mithras and Isis and Magna Mater cults in Rome incorporated other gods and a pantheon was implicitly part of the equation.

Yes, but that was the poetic expression. Educated pagans of the Christian period understood there to be one underlying reality and source. A very similar situation to what we see in Hinduism.

Now, some pagans did practice worship or sacrifice to beings that were understood to be spirits. That is a different thing, and is undoubtedly idolatry in the truest sense. But often they did this while also acknowledging the One Source.
 
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wayseer

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Um. Where have I mentioned the church fathers?

You haven't - but you might like to consider their contribution to Christianity.

Um. To me its clear enough, what you must mean is it isnt clear to you.

I would suggest that the scriptures are not 'clear' in that they are readably discernable. It was the patristic Fathers who began the process of working their way through muddy waters. This work goes on today evidence by the work of numerous theologians.

Generally, Christianity suggest Judaism has got their theology wrong while Islam suggest Christianity has got their theology wrong - but there is no suggesting we are worshipping the same God.

There is also the matter that there is scriptural evidence that Jesus' death applied to all people - regardless of religious status.

To claim a narrow interpretation of the texts indicates an equally narrow theological base. Yes, we all like to think we are on the right tram but sometimes we hold the ticket on the tram going in another direction.
 
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But the generic unknowable "Brahman" of Hinduism that is the ultimate oneness of all the thousands of gods in a monotheistic expression is certainly not the God of Israel, the Father of the Blessed Trinity. Personality, interaction with mankind, essence, and overall character doesn't match up. I'm not convinced that we can just claim any monotheistic expression is akin to Yaweah by nature of it being monotheistic. Look at Pharaoh Amenhotep IV. He takes Egypt away from polytheism to worship the sun god, Aton, as the one and only monotheistic expression of Egyptian religion. But is this the Abrahamic god?

Obviously St. Paul in Acts 17:23 goes to Athens and sees a generic unknown god monument and he makes a connection with it. He relates what the Greeks are missing to this shadow of a god they don't really know. But do the apostles like Paul or the Fathers actually think that pagan gods are the same as our Trinitarian God? It seems like they used pagan theology to explain Trinitarian truths, but did they actually think the god of neo-platonism is our God? This is something I would find fascinating. Could you post some excerpts, Meghan, to give as examples? You're obviously more learned in patristics than yours truly here.

Yes, but that was the poetic expression. Educated pagans of the Christian period understood there to be one underlying reality and source. A very similar situation to what we see in Hinduism.

Now, some pagans did practice worship or sacrifice to beings that were understood to be spirits. That is a different thing, and is undoubtedly idolatry in the truest sense. But often they did this while also acknowledging the One Source.
 
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mark46

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I suspect that we are talking past each other on many of these issues.
I think that we all understand the bottom line that we should not cannot compromise the gospel. I think that we understand this in a missionary setting. We understand that we are a very small minority and we understand what works. Obviously, it is important to share and understand each other's faith. But there is no compromise. Our missionaries preach the gospel.

Some believe that US is a great mission field. My understanding is that Europe certainly is. Perhaps if we had more of missionary mentality, we would spend more time listening to those of other faiths and philosophies.

Interfaith relations are a complicated topic. We strongly disagree on how this should work. I agree with the approach of the Catholic Church; you do not. No one is talking about ecumenism, certainly not the pope who refuses to be called Patriarch of the West. For me, we are called to change the world, not be sure that we don't interact with the unsaved.
==============

So, let's be clear. I may have miscommunicated. In the most fundamental sense, there is only one God, the triune God. Anyone who does not believe in God is in error and needs to be "evangelized', with words if necessary. However, we cannot make believe that we can understand His mysteries, other than in small whispers and small glimmers of light seen from within the dark cave. We walk in faith, one step at a time, while God lights that next step.

But I refuse to take the common evangelist position that all the rest of the world, except we who are elected, are led by the Devil. And I refuse to take the uber-Calvinist position that God created anyone for damnation.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit has gifted many non-Trintarian groups with a portion of the deposit of faith, and that one can faith even without hearing or understand anything about the Word. We pray for them all; we evangelize to them all. However, we also talk to them all, work with them all, listen to them all and to the degree it is feasable pray with them all.

IMHO, if we do not listen almost all of the time, we will not do a good job of evangelizing.











But the generic unknowable "Brahman" of Hinduism that is the ultimate oneness of all the thousands of gods in a monotheistic expression is certainly not the God of Israel, the Father of the Blessed Trinity. Personality, interaction with mankind, essence, and overall character doesn't match up. I'm not convinced that we can just claim any monotheistic expression is akin to Yaweah by nature of it being monotheistic. Look at Pharaoh Amenhotep IV. He takes Egypt away from polytheism to worship the sun god, Aton, as the one and only monotheistic expression of Egyptian religion. But is this the Abrahamic god?

Obviously St. Paul in Acts 17:23 goes to Athens and sees a generic unknown god monument and he makes a connection with it. He relates what the Greeks are missing to this shadow of a god they don't really know. But do the apostles like Paul or the Fathers actually think that pagan gods are the same as our Trinitarian God? It seems like they used pagan theology to explain Trinitarian truths, but did they actually think the god of neo-platonism is our God? This is something I would find fascinating. Could you post some excerpts, Meghan, to give as examples? You're obviously more learned in patristics than yours truly here.
 
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mark46

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Let's clear up one subsidiary issue.

Do we pray to the same God as the Jews? For theirs is the God of the Old Testament. Is He not also our God?

Obviously, Jews have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, but that is not the question. Salvation is also not the question.
 
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yes, we do. But the Jews do not know the fullness of the God they had in the OT. The fullness of God is revealed in the Incarnation. They worship one Person of the Holy Trinity and thus have an incomplete vision of God.

Let's clear up one subsidiary issue.

Do we pray to the same God as the Jews? For theirs is the God of the Old Testament. Is He not also our God?

Obviously, Jews have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, but that is not the question. Salvation is also not the question.
 
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brightmorningstar

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MKJ
When I talk about theologians in the history of the Church, I mean the Church Fathers. They have never understood other monotheistic religions as talking about a "different" God.
Well you would need to give an example for that, but its your straw man. I referred to the Biblical testimony, The Biblical testimony is consistent, some of the things some of the early church fathers said were not in line with what we now have as the NT.
I have to ask the question, why do some on this forum more often than not refer to early church fathers ideas when presented with the Biblical scripture?
Thinking things are simpler than they are is an error as much as thinking they are more complicated
But that is you thinking things are simpler than they are. That is your error then and not mine.
Educated pagans of the Christian period understood there to be one underlying reality and source. A very similar situation to what we see in Hinduism.
But they still didn’t have the truth, so you are claiming they had one source but they didnt.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Wayseer,
You haven't - but you might like to consider their contribution to Christianity.
I would be happy to, providing of course you address what the scriptures say which is what I have been presenting to you.
Why would you look to the church father’s thoughts when presented with the Biblical scriptures?
I would suggest that the scriptures are not 'clear' in that they are readably discernable.
I would suggest the scriptures are very clear on this matter. How can they not be?
It was the patristic Fathers who began the process of working their way through muddy waters. This work goes on today evidence by the work of numerous theologians.
Nope. You cant call what the Biblical and Quranic verses say muddy waters without inviting the question whether you believe them.

Generally, Christianity suggest Judaism has got their theology wrong while Islam suggest Christianity has got their theology wrong - but there is no suggesting we are worshipping the same God.
Nope, we have all kinds of false teaching in Christianity so one needs to test what is being claimed as Christianity. The Jews did not believe Jesus was God. Jesus told them He was their God, not least "Before Abraham was born, I AM".
Yes the scriptures show we are worshipping different gods, that is what they say. Your doubts are because you don’t believe what the scriptures say.
There is also the matter that there is scriptural evidence that Jesus' death applied to all people - regardless of religious status.
It did. Thats what it says. But Islam doesnt acknowledge that. So what is your point?
 
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brightmorningstar

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Do we pray to the same God as the Jews? For theirs is the God of the Old Testament. Is He not also our God?
Correct
yes, we do. But the Jews do not know the fullness of the God they had in the OT. The fullness of God is revealed in the Incarnation. They worship one Person of the Holy Trinity and thus have an incomplete vision of God.
Correct.
 
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wayseer

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Wayseer,
I would be happy to, providing of course you address what the scriptures say which is what I have been presenting to you.
Why would you look to the church father’s thoughts when presented with the Biblical scriptures?

Because they addressed the very questions you raise - and addressed them rather effectively.

I would suggest the scriptures are very clear on this matter. How can they not be?

For the very reason why you fail to understand why the patristic Fathers are so important. It was the PF that nutted out much of what those scriptures were attempting to say.

Nope. You cant call what the Biblical and Quranic verses say muddy waters without inviting the question whether you believe them.

And you know those answers ... ?

Nope, we have all kinds of false teaching in Christianity so one needs to test what is being claimed as Christianity.

Which is why you need to pay attention to those who have 'been there before' - those patristic Fathers you seem to have so much difficulty with.

The Jews did not believe Jesus was God. Jesus told them He was their God, not least "Before Abraham was born, I AM".

And ... ?

Yes the scriptures show we are worshipping different gods, that is what they say. Your doubts are because you don’t believe what the scriptures say.

What I doubt is what people tell I 'should' believe - people who have obviously failed to do an y study on the Church Fathers.

It did. Thats what it says. But Islam doesnt acknowledge that. So what is your point?

That Jesus dies for all of humanity - including those who have an elevated belief of their own righteousness.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Wayseer,
Because they addressed the very questions you raise - and addressed them rather effectively.
I am not raising questions.
I would say they didnt and you are making a false claim. Can you provide some evidence please?
And you know those answers ... ?
I know what the Biblical and Quaranic verses say. In what way can they be muddy?
Which is why you need to pay attention to those who have 'been there before' - those patristic Fathers you seem to have so much difficulty with.
Well when you have provided some evidence to show what they said we can se whether what you are claiming has any credibility.
But why would you offer up early church father’s views and not also address the scriptures?
And ... ?
so those of us who believe and follow Jesus know the answer to the question, Jesus is God.
.
What I doubt is what people tell I 'should' believe - people who have obviously failed to do an y study on the Church Fathers.
Well first you would need to demonstrate you have done any study.
Yes the scriptures show we are worshipping different gods, that is what they say. Your doubts are because you don’t believe what the scriptures say.

That Jesus dies for all of humanity - including those who have an elevated belief of their own righteousness.
Yes, we know that, but Muslims dont believe that because of the revelation of Allah, despite it being the case. So you may say Jesus died for all but the Allah Muslims worship says He didnt.
 
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