A Question for Atheists

norswede

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Atheists don't understand why Christians believe in God based on Faith in what the Bible says even with the thousands if not millions of reports around the world where individuals and groups of people have experienced phenomena that can't be explained by science. I have 3 questions for you:

1. Do you understand and have you seen for yourself proof of all the scientific claims you believe in or do you assume they are true because the media reports it or because Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking tell you it is so?

2. If not, then why do you automatically believe the scientists as soon as they tell you something is true even when they have been proven in the past to falsify information such as mixing bones of different species together in order to attempt to prove their agenda and even though not all scientists agree on any one topic?

3. How do you know that everything science claims is true is in fact the whole picture when every scientific discovery has to go through peer review by top scientists before it is even publicized. Imagine for a moment that solid evidence of the existence of God or evidence that disproves evolution were to be discovered. Do you have enough "Faith" in your scientists that they would say "Wow, look we were wrong all along and the Christians were right. Let's admit we were wrong and rewrite all of the science books to include God and Creationism." There have been many cases of Christian scientists or scientists who have become Christians after they made discoveries that disprove evolution or other scientific theories or that prove stories from the Bible to be true who have lost their jobs because they spoke out about these discoveries and of course no one believes them because they find scientists who have everything to lose if they go against current scientific theories more credible than those who have lost their jobs over revealing the truth. Yet many of the proven scientific hoaxes managed to get through peer review because they furthered their agenda. Think about it.
 
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norswede

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Could you explain what your question has to do with not believing in a god?

My questions have to do with why atheists believe what they do and why they think that Christians shouldn't believe what we do. How is your faith more relevant than ours?
 
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Mythunderstood

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Atheists don't understand why Christians believe in God based on Faith in what the Bible says even with the thousands if not millions of reports around the world where individuals and groups of people have experienced phenomena that can't be explained by science. I have 3 questions for you:

1. Do you understand and have you seen for yourself proof of all the scientific claims you believe in or do you assume they are true because the media reports it or because Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking tell you it is so?

2. If not, then why do you automatically believe the scientists as soon as they tell you something is true even when they have been proven in the past to falsify information such as mixing bones of different species together in order to attempt to prove their agenda and even though not all scientists agree on any one topic?

3. How do you know that everything science claims is true is in fact the whole picture when every scientific discovery has to go through peer review by top scientists before it is even publicized. Imagine for a moment that solid evidence of the existence of God or evidence that disproves evolution were to be discovered. Do you have enough "Faith" in your scientists that they would say "Wow, look we were wrong all along and the Christians were right. Let's admit we were wrong and rewrite all of the science books to include God and Creationism." There have been many cases of Christian scientists or scientists who have become Christians after they made discoveries that disprove evolution or other scientific theories or that prove stories from the Bible to be true who have lost their jobs because they spoke out about these discoveries and of course no one believes them because they find scientists who have everything to lose if they go against current scientific theories more credible than those who have lost their jobs over revealing the truth. Yet many of the proven scientific hoaxes managed to get through peer review because they furthered their agenda. Think about it.

I'm confused. Why are you asking atheists about science? Maybe you're in the wrong forum? My lack of belief in gods has nothing to do with science. I had no belief in gods (since birth) long before I ever learned anything about science. :confused:
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Atheists don't understand why Christians believe in God based on Faith in what the Bible says even with the thousands if not millions of reports around the world where individuals and groups of people have experienced phenomena that can't be explained by science. I have 3 questions for you:

Sorry, I have only a normal, call it Joe-Schmoe interest in science. One thing I do know however is that science is tentative.

A few other things I know:
God-of-the-Gaps reasoning is poor, poor, poor, poor. If we can't explain something, we can't explain something. If we can't explain something by science and you want to make a point of it, then I am afraid you'd have to explain* otherwise.

:)


* Note: I said "explain" and not "meaningless talk".


I have 3 questions for you:

You are not asking because you are interested in the answers. Your questions are quite shot through with underlying assumptions. And it is quite easy to see that you are simply making assertions/statements thinly disguised as question. (You are by no means the only person to do that, it is quite popular.)
 
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Erfan777

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Atheists don't understand why Christians believe in God based on Faith in what the Bible says even with the thousands if not millions of reports around the world where individuals and groups of people have experienced phenomena that can't be explained by science. I have 3 questions for you:

1. Do you understand and have you seen for yourself proof of all the scientific claims you believe in or do you assume they are true because the media reports it or because Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking tell you it is so?.

Scientific theory is an explanation for a large number of findings in the natural world, it accounts for diverse observations by proposing a model that ties all of them together into one piece. A theory is not an educated guess which you seem to refering, a few theories are well supoorted by multiple lines of evidence. I believe in many scientific claims because I have studied them ( I am a chemical engineer) and I believe atheists who are in the field of science and engineering don't have to believe in scientific theories because of media reports or others but they can see the evidences for themselves.

2. If not, then why do you automatically believe the scientists as soon as they tell you something is true even when they have been proven in the past to falsify information such as mixing bones of different species together in order to attempt to prove their agenda and even though not all scientists agree on any one topic?.

To simple believe in what scientists say is unscientific and foolishness. Afterall as you say scientists could just be wanting to prove their agenda even though its false. When we encounter with new scientific claims, we should be be scientifically skeptic, which is to evaluate all claims with an open mind but insisting on persuasive evidence before accepting them. Scientists also have to make sure they don't fall into the category of pathological skepticism which is tendency to dismiss any claims that contradict our beliefs nor should we be so open that we believe in anything. I don't know what you mean by mixing bones though.

3. How do you know that everything science claims is true is in fact the whole picture when every scientific discovery has to go through peer review by top scientists before it is even publicized. Imagine for a moment that solid evidence of the existence of God or evidence that disproves evolution were to be discovered. Do you have enough "Faith" in your scientists that they would say "Wow, look we were wrong all along and the Christians were right. Let's admit we were wrong and rewrite all of the science books to include God and Creationism." There have been many cases of Christian scientists or scientists who have become Christians after they made discoveries that disprove evolution or other scientific theories or that prove stories from the Bible to be true who have lost their jobs because they spoke out about these discoveries and of course no one believes them because they find scientists who have everything to lose if they go against current scientific theories more credible than those who have lost their jobs over revealing the truth. Yet many of the proven scientific hoaxes managed to get through peer review because they furthered their agenda. Think about it.

Peer review is the best mechanism to weed our porblematic research, which are research that are bias, poor-quality and contain confirmation bias. If there were no peer review, anybody could put anything into scientific journals and others. Peer review is a mechanism whereby experts in a field carefully screen the work of their colleagues. Research report published in journals with higher rejection rates tend to be more credible because they've withstood a higher level of critical scrutiny (not saying they are 100% accurate).

Existence of God according to field of science falls into the category of metaphysical claims. Metaphysical claims are claims about the world that are unfalsifiable. According to science these claims can never falsify using scientific methods so they fall outside the bounderies of science. In science falsifiability is the most important thing in a scientific theory.

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.
 
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Eudaimonist

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1. Do you understand and have you seen for yourself proof of all the scientific claims you believe in or do you assume they are true because the media reports it or because Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking tell you it is so?

No, and no. I assume nothing.

I don't need to see personally what scientists see. What I want to know is the methodology in use to arrive at the conclusion, and I don't simply take conclusions on faith. I want to know what they have seen and measured, and how they are supporting their claims. I don't take science on faith, and there are times when I disagree with scientific conclusions.

Sorry, but people who believe in miracles do not use trustworthy methodolgies. Failing to explain something through science doesn't mean that one is entitled to conclude that the cause is supernatural or divine.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Tuddrussell

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1. Do you understand and have you seen for yourself proof of all the scientific claims you believe in or do you assume they are true because the media reports it or because Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking tell you it is so?

2. If not, then why do you automatically believe the scientists as soon as they tell you something is true even when they have been proven in the past to falsify information such as mixing bones of different species together in order to attempt to prove their agenda and even though not all scientists agree on any one topic?

If I believe something it is because it makes sense, is well supported, and has practical and consistent applications. Two of the most important things in science is falsifiability and peer review. Because of these the scientific community as a whole has the ability to weed out mistakes, inaccuracies, and lies.


3. How do you know that everything science claims is true is in fact the whole picture when every scientific discovery has to go through peer review by top scientists before it is even publicized. Imagine for a moment that solid evidence of the existence of God or evidence that disproves evolution were to be discovered. Do you have enough "Faith" in your scientists that they would say "Wow, look we were wrong all along and the Christians were right. Let's admit we were wrong and rewrite all of the science books to include God and Creationism." There have been many cases of Christian scientists or scientists who have become Christians after they made discoveries that disprove evolution or other scientific theories or that prove stories from the Bible to be true who have lost their jobs because they spoke out about these discoveries and of course no one believes them because they find scientists who have everything to lose if they go against current scientific theories more credible than those who have lost their jobs over revealing the truth. Yet many of the proven scientific hoaxes managed to get through peer review because they furthered their agenda. Think about it.

Think of a scientific theory as a standing challenge. They are saying to the world: "Hey, look at my idea! It makes sense, has evidence supporting it, and here are some folks who agree with me!"

If you don't believe it, or have doubts, then you need to propose a counter theory and/or provide evidence that the theory in question is false. After all in order for it to be a theory at all it has to be falsifiable!

Falsify it or shut up! Proof speaks for itself, if there is proof that evolution is false, or that god exists... Then please do share it! Even if there is some bizarre conspiracy in the scientific community, which I doubt,
I for one will not dismiss proper evidence just because I don't like the implications.
 
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buzzini

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Atheist thinks from carnal mind. They have not the light of God in their spirit, thus all they can trust is their fleshly senses and certain logic that they learn to trust in.



Even if God is to appear to them, they would deny God to His face. Because if God can be proven with their carnal senses, they'd say God is mere natural and physical, not spiritual. Proof is of no use to them cause there lack basic capacity of spiritual senses. Which God is a spirit.



Yet if they even to lift their mind a little above their natural thinking, they can still have some idea of God and Spiritual things like Love and Truth and Wisdom. Such things are spiritual, and property of God even atheists can have them in their hearts if they choose to think above natural realm.
 
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norswede

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If I believe something it is because it makes sense, is well supported, and has practical and consistent applications. Two of the most important things in science is falsifiability and peer review. Because of these the scientific community as a whole has the ability to weed out mistakes, inaccuracies, and lies.




Think of a scientific theory as a standing challenge. They are saying to the world: "Hey, look at my idea! It makes sense, has evidence supporting it, and here are some folks who agree with me!"

If you don't believe it, or have doubts, then you need to propose a counter theory and/or provide evidence that the theory in question is false. After all in order for it to be a theory at all it has to be falsifiable!

Falsify it or shut up! Proof speaks for itself, if there is proof that evolution is false, or that god exists... Then please do share it! Even if there is some bizarre conspiracy in the scientific community, which I doubt,
I for one will not dismiss proper evidence just because I don't like the implications.

There is a magazine called "Creation Magazine" as well as a website for Creation Ministries that shows plenty of evidence for Creationism and contradicts evolution discoveries that come out. I have read it many times and there is good solid evidence that makes just as much sense as what the secular scientists are putting out there (more in my opinion) but because it's not accepted by peer review, it isn't covered by the media, therefore most people don't even know it exists and aren't given the opportunity to make an informed decision as to what they believe. There has been far too much propaganda in the media and in schools supporting evolution as fact that most people assume that it's true even though they don't know the first thing about it just because the media and the schools say it is true and many of those who don't buy it, feel pressured into accepting it because it's unpopular to have any other opinions.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Yet if they even to lift their mind a little above their natural thinking, they can still have some idea of [...] Spiritual things like Love and Truth and Wisdom.

Such things are fully natural.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Tuddrussell

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a website for Creation Ministries that shows plenty of evidence for Creationism and contradicts evolution discoveries that come out.

I've looked through the site, and I have to say that it is a lot of rot... There are just so many things wrong with it! Not only that, but nowhere did I see any evidence. Just conjecture, and lies/misinformation.

If they had evidence it would speak for itself! I saw none, and wasted my time on nonsense.

Pro tip: Abiogenesis, and the big bang have nothing at all to do with "Darwinism," which does not exist. If they addressed the theory of evolution, and provided credible evidence then I'd at least hear them out.
 
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Beksinski

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The gist of my initial reply has been mostly covered. The content of the question is full of unqualified presumptions. Atheism is a lack of one particular belief. Not a mandated set of opposing beliefs. I know atheists who have less confidence in science than my average christian acquaintance.

Now, many atheist communities DO stress the importance of a scientific world view. And many atheists also look up to some of the names you drop. So your queries are not entirely without merit but if science has an over-arching theme it is skepticism and the demand for evidence. NOT unqualified subscription to whatever a figure of authority declares to be true. The sort of credulity you describe is not admired by skeptics regardless of what concepts are held above scrutiny. Religion is particularly problematic since (1) It's claims are so large, often encompassing the entirety of the universe. (2) It's conditions often are supposed to apply to everyone. Whether they wish to participate or not. (3) It often specifically stresses some concept like submission or faith or some other form of deliberately uncritical acceptance.

Having 'faith in science' is really an oxymoron by the real definitions of those words.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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There is a magazine called "Creation Magazine" as well as a website for Creation Ministries that shows plenty of evidence for Creationism and contradicts evolution discoveries that come out. I have read it many times and there is good solid evidence that makes just as much sense as [snip]

In light of what you 'accuse' atheists of doing in your OP, this comes across as pretty ironic. You see it is you yourself who puts a lot of stock into what a bunch of creationists tell you. And then you project this on other people. At least that the way it looks. *shrug*



And from my perspective ... I am not sure what to say. There is plenty of good, mainstream, normal science. But no, I hear the gist of the OP, don't trust that stuff and those people like Hawking and Dawkins. Instead, here is the RCM* full along with stuff that is not peer reviewed, that is outside the mainstream, and that is totally out there. Uhhhh!



* RCM = Random Creationist Ministry
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Atheist thinks from carnal mind. They have not the light of God in their spirit, thus all they can trust is their fleshly senses and certain logic that they learn to trust in.

It would really be helpful if people who don't think with just the carnal mind, people who have the light of God in their spirit, or whatever it is exactly would be a little bit more successful in their thinking, a little more considerate, wise etc. And not ... :sigh: You see?
 
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Beksinski

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I would cautiously submit that laypeople on both sides should be careful about asserting evidence in the scientific sense. Biology at the level of genetic inheritance is extraordinarily complicated and still very much an emerging science. The leading minds in this research show much less certainty about the status of claims than do the average opinionated christian/atheist who simply carries a party line. I'm ok with someone claiming a faith-based belief in creationism so long as they are consistent in that basis. Just as a secular preference for naturalistic origins is a reasonable working position for a non-religious person. But strident claims of proof or certainty, particularly from people who have no special qualifications are extremely suspect. Why should anyone presume you or I would happen to know more than the experts?
 
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buzzini

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It would really be helpful if people who don't think with just the carnal mind, people who have the light of God in their spirit, or whatever it is exactly would be a little bit more successful in their thinking, a little more considerate, wise etc. And not ... :sigh: You see?

Sometimes truth is harsh. For anyone believes in certain Divinity receives spiritual enlightenment and thus possible to be saved. But those who deny even the least of this shut themselves off from any influx, thus they are in total darkness spiritually, yet they seem logical in their own eyes and their judgement.

It is harsh because they are so close to God here on this site, yet fervently deny Him, thus they deserve the truth.
 
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Sometimes truth is harsh. For anyone believes in certain Divinity receives spiritual enlightenment and thus possible to be saved. But those who deny even the least of this shut themselves off from any influx, thus they are in total darkness spiritually, yet they seem logical in their own eyes and their judgement.

It is harsh because they are so close to God here on this site, yet fervently deny Him, thus they deserve the truth.

As Charlie Brown would say, Good grief!

Indeed, truth is harsh and we all perhaps deserve it.

:)
 
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