Sonship Obtained Only Through Mormonism

TasteForTruth · Jul 28, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
Please show us the teaching that those who disobey the command to marry will have eternal life in the CK and live in God's presence.

There is no such teaching (at least where eternal life is concerned). This post more than adequately shows that some who do not enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will yet live in God's presence.

Phoebe Ann said:
I noticed that you said they will have "life;" tell us what kind of life they will have.

They will live with the Father and the Son—whatever that life will be like. They will not be gods, but angels who minister for God and his exalted children.

Phoebe Ann said:
Will it be immortality only or will it be exaltation?

It will be immortality only.

We could hash out what "full exaltation" and "full salvation" mean (as per Joseph Fielding Smith's teachings)—and other such related terms which would fine-tune at least one of my responses above—but we can do that later. My responses are accurate enough for the discussion at hand, and will suffice for now.

Now, I am answering your questions. Please answer mine:

Do or do not LDS teachings include the doctrine that those who accept and keep the "primary and fundamental principles" of salvation—as defined by Joseph Fielding Smith on page 3 of Vol. 2 of his work, Doctrines of Salvation—but who do not take upon themselves "the ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, [which] pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom,"(p. 40 of the same work), will also inherit life in the presence of the Father and the Son in the Celestial Kingdom as God's sons and daughters, and as members of the Church of the Firstborn?

Rescued One · Jul 28, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
There is no such teaching (at least where eternal life is concerned). This post more than adequately shows that some who do not enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will yet live in God's presence.

They will live with the Father and the Son—whatever that life will be like. They will not be gods, but angels who minister for God and his exalted children.

It will be immortality only.

We could hash out what "full exaltation" and "full salvation" mean (as per Joseph Fielding Smith's teachings)—and other such related terms which would fine-tune at least one of my responses above—but we can do that later. My responses are accurate enough for the discussion at hand, and will suffice for now.

Now, I am answering your questions. Please answer mine:

Do or do not LDS teachings include the doctrine that those who accept and keep the "primary and fundamental principles" of salvation—as defined by Joseph Fielding Smith on page 3 of Vol. 2 of his work, Doctrines of Salvation—but who do not take upon themselves "the ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, [which] pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom,"(p. 40 of the same work), will also inherit life in the presence of the Father and the Son in the Celestial Kingdom as God's sons and daughters, and as members of the Church of the Firstborn?

I believe that LDS teachings sometimes present contradictions!

D&C 76
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true."

The Holy Spirit of Promise by Lawrence R. Flake

The Holy Spirit of Promise is one of many descriptive name-titles of the Holy Ghost and refers to a specific function of the Holy Ghost. In John 14:16, the Savior, who had been a comforter to his disciples, assured them that after his departure into heaven they would receive another comforter: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever." The next verse speaks of this Comforter as "the Spirit of truth," who "dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" (verse 17). The Lord subsequently identified this promised Comforter as the Holy Ghost (verse 26). Doctrine and Covenants 88:3 reiterates and clarifies: "Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John."

The Holy Spirit of Promise is the power by which ordinances and other righteous acts performed on this earth, such as baptism and eternal marriage, are ratified, validated, and sealed in heaven as well as on earth. Paul taught the Ephesians that after acting on their faith in Christ they "were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise," which was the surety of their "inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph. 1:12-14). The sealing of earthly covenants and performances is conditional and depends upon the recipient's personal commitment and worthiness. If a person who has received the Holy Spirit of Promise subsequently becomes unrighteous, the seal is broken until full repentance and forgiveness occur (DS 1:55; 2:94-99).

The necessity of sealing by the Holy Ghost is emphasized in the following passage: "All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise,…are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead" (D&C 132:7). Earthly representatives of the Lord, such as bishops and elders may be deceived by an unworthy person, but no one can deceive the Holy Spirit, who will not ratify an ordinance received unworthily. This safeguard is attached to all blessings and covenants associated with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The ultimate manifestation of the Holy Spirit of Promise is in connection with having one's calling and election made sure—that is, receiving "the more sure word of prophecy" testifying that an individual is sealed up to eternal life (D&C 131:5). The Holy Spirit of Promise validates this blessing or seals it upon the person. Referring to the Holy Spirit of Promise the Lord says, "This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the Celestial Kingdom" (D&C 88:4; cf. MD, pp. 361-62).
The Holy Spirit of Promise

"Eternal life is to live with our Father and with our families forevermore."

“The Lord does not expect that we do what we cannot achieve. The command to become perfect, as He is, encourages us to achieve the best of ourselves, to discover and develop the talents and attributes with which we are blessed by a loving Eternal Father, who invites us to realize our potential as children of God. He knows us; He knows of our capacities and our limitations. The invitation and challenge to become perfect, to achieve eternal life is for all mankind.”
Elder Jorge F. Zeballos, Attempting the Impossible

Attempting the Impossible - Ensign Nov. 2009

Scripture and discussion
Explain that Doctrine and Covenants 14:7 tells us the value of exaltation or eternal life, as it is sometimes called. Have a young man read the scripture aloud. Have the young men mark this verse.

• What does this scripture say we must do to obtain exaltation?

At this point in the discussion emphasize, the part of the scripture that states, “Keep my commandments.”

Exaltation Requires Ordinances and Covenants
Discussion
Explain that to understand how our Father in Heaven expects us to keep the commandments we need to know the meaning of two words: ordinance and covenant.

• What is an ordinance? (An outward, physical action, such as baptism, symbolizing an inner belief or commitment.)

• What is a covenant? (A mutual promise between God and man in which man promises to do certain things and God promises certain results.)
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h...toid=ba805f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

To have immortality only, a free gift, one only has to be born on earth.

Quotations, chalkboard, and discussion
President Spencer W. Kimball explained one covenant we all made long ago. Have the young men listen for what they promised Heavenly Father and when they made this promise:

“We made vows, solemn vows, in the heavens before we came to this mortal life. …

“We have made covenants. We made them before we accepted our position here on the earth. …

“We committed ourselves to our Heavenly Father, that if He would send us to the earth and give us bodies and give to us the priceless opportunities that earth life afforded, we would keep our lives clean and would marry in the holy temple and would rear a family and teach them righteousness. This was a solemn oath, a solemn promise” (“ ‘Be Ye Therefore Perfect’ ” [devotional address, Salt Lake Institute of Religion, 10 Jan. 1975], p. 2).

LDS.org - Aaronic Priesthood Chapter Detail - Exaltation through Keeping Covenants

And you have apparently misunderstood Joseph Fielding Smith; he said that those who do not marry for eternity will experience weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth!

bbbbbbb · Jul 28, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
Oh, this isn't how we deal with everyone... just anti's. They usually require a great deal of bashing over the head to admit their errors, if they ever admit them at all.

I admit that I am lacking in a great deal of comprehension concerning the LDS and, consequently, have misunderstandings. Do you equate misunderstanding with error and, therefore, feel the compulsion to bash me over my head?

TasteForTruth · Jul 28, 2011

bbbbbbb said:
I admit that I am lacking in a great deal of comprehension concerning the LDS and, consequently, have misunderstandings. Do you equate misunderstanding with error and, therefore, feel the compulsion to bash me over my head?

What I equate your misunderstandings to is not the issue, and certainly not the cause for my being compelled to bash anyone over the proverbial head. I would expect that a person who admits to lacking a "great deal of comprehension concerning the LDS" faith would exert a commensurate amount of effort to listen to and hear what LDS members have to say about their faith before concluding that they do not themselves comprehend it! And I find no joy or satisfaction in saying that I feel to say that I have not been the beneficiary of such effort on your part. Rather, I feel to say that I have cause to believe that you are antagonistic toward LDS who are here attempting to straighten out what we claim are misrepresentations of our religion or its teachings.

And even that isn't what compels me to bash you or anyone over the proverbial head. It is the persistence of that antagonistic spirit in the face of the very thing you purport to want from me (aid in comprehension)—that is what compels me to resort to brute force. And why not? When someone tells me that he wants to understand, but expends little visible effort to understand, and at the same time openly agrees with those who have been shown to not fully understand, and then tells me that I don't or that I'm being deceptive in some way—if I am to take his desires at face value, I must conclude that he requires more brute means of delivering what he's asked for, as opposed to what I'd rather deliver—good-faith dialogue.

So you tell me. I share the doctrines of my faith in as comprehensive a manner as I believe possible in this setting. And while I don't expect people to agree with them, I am most certainly not ignorant of them! All I know is that there is another poster here who likely had little significant understanding of the LDS faith upon starting the asking/comprehending process, just like you. This poster, however, doesn't give up if things aren't crystal clear with one post. This poster doesn't assume that I or other LDS are ignorant of our religion, or out to convert or deceive people. This poster neither agrees with our doctrines or is a member of our church. But this poster has learned a great deal, and comprehends a great deal, and that understanding continues to expand. And this poster does not antagonize, mock, or claim that LDS are ignorant of our doctrines, and this poster does not misrepresent LDS but repeatedly asks for clarification where needed. And this poster does not get bashed over the head in order to get the same comprehension for which you claim to be asking.

So you tell me what the difference is. Is it just that I'm a hothead and a jerk? Am I a respecter of persons? Do I just indiscriminately pick and choose which posters I'll confront, as opposed to those I'll go out of my way for? You tell me.

TasteForTruth · Jul 28, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
I believe that LDS teachings sometimes present contradictions!

I appreciate that you feel that way. In the present case, I have shown that there is no contradiction. I have not attempted to show that anyone but exalted persons receives eternal life. I have not attempted to disprove any of the already-agreed-on points for which you continue to produce quote after quote after quote to prove. The repetition is irritating. Just please deal with the issue.

Phoebe Ann said:
To have immortality only, a free gift, one only has to be born on earth.

Indeed. But that has nothing to with the point in question. For anyone who reaches the age of accountability it does take more than being born to receive an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what is being discussed.

Phoebe Ann said:
And you have apparently misunderstood Joseph Fielding Smith; he said that those who do not marry for eternity will experience weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth!

I have not misunderstood anything. I haven't said one word in this thread about weeping, wailing, or gnashing of teeth, nor have I disputed the fact that young members of the church who know the commandments in life, and who therefore have the blessings of eternal marriage offered and available to them, but who value them not in mortality and neglect or reject God's offering of them—I have not disputed that these people will be disappointed (even to the point that they weep, etc.) when they cannot lay claim in eternity on the blessings they were offered but didn't accept in life, like they erroneously believed they would be able to do. For that is the context of his words to which you are referring. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, Ch. 4)

But my question still remains. It is a valid question, and I have presented detailed, clear, official, verifiable, and easy-to-understand sources to establish the actuality and correctness of the doctrine contained in it. Why do you persist in delaying a direct response? If you do not agree that this doctrine exists, simply say so. If you will not answer the question, stop wasting my time and just say so. If you cannot answer the question, just say so.

The question again:

Do or do not LDS teachings include the doctrine that those who accept and keep the "primary and fundamental principles" of salvation—as defined by Joseph Fielding Smith on page 3 of Vol. 2 of his work, Doctrines of Salvation—but who do not take upon themselves "the ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, [which] pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom,"(p. 40 of the same work), will also inherit life in the presence of the Father and the Son in the Celestial Kingdom as God's sons and daughters, and as members of the Church of the Firstborn?

Rescued One · Jul 28, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
I appreciate that you feel that way. In the present case, I have shown that there is no contradiction.

No, you have not.

TasteForTruth said:
I have not attempted to show that anyone but exalted persons receives eternal life.

Only those who receive eternal life have kept the commandments in order to become clean and be in the Father's presence.

TasteForTruth said:
I have not attempted to disprove any of the already-agreed-on points for which you continue to produce quote after quote after quote to prove. The repetition is irritating. Just please deal with the issue.

If the repetition were as irritating as you claim it is, you surely wouldn't be repeating yourself. Christ said, " All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:1.

TasteForTruth said:
Indeed. But that has nothing to with the point in question. For anyone who reaches the age of accountability it does take more than being born to receive an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what is being discussed.

In that case, please answer the question: Are rebellious people qualified to be in the Father's presence? Alma 5:27 “Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? "

TasteForTruth said:
I have not misunderstood anything. I haven't said one word in this thread about weeping, wailing, or gnashing of teeth, nor have I disputed the fact that young members of the church who know the commandments in life, and who therefore have the blessings of eternal marriage offered and available to them, but who value them not in mortality and neglect or reject God's offering of them—I have not disputed that these people will be disappointed (even to the point that they weep, etc.) when they cannot lay claim in eternity on the blessings they were offered but didn't accept in life, like they erroneously believed they would be able to do. For that is the context of his words to which you are referring. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, Ch. 4)

Is there weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Celestial Kingdom?

TasteForTruth said:
But my question still remains. It is a valid question, and I have presented detailed, clear, official, verifiable, and easy-to-understand sources to establish the actuality and correctness of the doctrine contained in it. Why do you persist in delaying a direct response? If you do not agree that this doctrine exists, simply say so. If you will not answer the question, stop wasting my time and just say so. If you cannot answer the question, just say so.

Can official doctrine of the LDS church be supported by scripture?

TasteForTruth said:
The question again:

Do or do not LDS teachings include the doctrine that those who accept and keep the "primary and fundamental principles" of salvation—as defined by Joseph Fielding Smith on page 3 of Vol. 2 of his work, Doctrines of Salvation—but who do not take upon themselves "the ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, [which] pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom,"(p. 40 of the same work), will also inherit life in the presence of the Father and the Son in the Celestial Kingdom as God's sons and daughters, and as members of the Church of the Firstborn?

Matthew 7:1

After all, I've given my answer severtal times.

BTW, I haven't wasted your time. I wouldn't hold a gun to any Mormon's head except in self defense or to make a citizen's arrest. If you believe you are wasting your time, you might want to rethink your decision to do so.

ldsfaqs · Jul 28, 2011

skylark1 said:
I thought that LDS considered taking the sacrament to be a renewal of the covenants that they made at baptism?

I think that the purpose of communion (as my church calls it) includes several factors, but I would not say that it is essentially being born again over and over. I think that we take communion in order to unify and strengthen the body of Christ. We remember the Lord's death, and the redemption from sin that he offered through it. We do it in remembrance of Him. As we do so, it strengthens the unity that we have with Christ and with one another, the body of Christ. Various Christian groups may differ on whether or not the elements become the blood and body of Christ, if He is spiritually present in the elements, if the elements represent his blood and body, and partaking of it is a means of grace, but I think that we all can agree on the the points mentioned above.

Yes, it is all those things. It is cleansing, repentance, and renewal, all the things that occur just as occurs at Baptism. Ultimately, that means being "born again".

Rescued One · Jul 28, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
It will be immortality only.

Eternal life is life in the presence of the Father and the Son. Those who receive it become members of the ‘Church of the Firstborn’ and are heirs as sons and daughters of God. They receive the fulness of blessings. They become like the Father and the Son and are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 9

Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives. The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3).
http://lds.org/study/topics/eternal-life?lang=eng

bbbbbbb · Jul 28, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
What I equate your misunderstandings to is not the issue, and certainly not the cause for my being compelled to bash anyone over the proverbial head. I would expect that a person who admits to lacking a "great deal of comprehension concerning the LDS" faith would exert a commensurate amount of effort to listen to and hear what LDS members have to say about their faith before concluding that they do not themselves comprehend it! And I find no joy or satisfaction in saying that I feel to say that I have not been the beneficiary of such effort on your part. Rather, I feel to say that I have cause to believe that you are antagonistic toward LDS who are here attempting to straighten out what we claim are misrepresentations of our religion or its teachings.

And even that isn't what compels me to bash you or anyone over the proverbial head. It is the persistence of that antagonistic spirit in the face of the very thing you purport to want from me (aid in comprehension)that is what compels me to resort to brute force. And why not? When someone tells me that he wants to understand, but expends little visible effort to understand, and at the same time openly agrees with those who have been shown to not fully understand, and then tells me that I don't or that I'm being deceptive in some wayif I am to take his desires at face value, I must conclude that he requires more brute means of delivering what he's asked for, as opposed to what I'd rather delivergood-faith dialogue.

So you tell me. I share the doctrines of my faith in as comprehensive a manner as I believe possible in this setting. And while I don't expect people to agree with them, I am most certainly not ignorant of them! All I know is that there is another poster here who likely had little significant understanding of the LDS faith upon starting the asking/comprehending process, just like you. This poster, however, doesn't give up if things aren't crystal clear with one post. This poster doesn't assume that I or other LDS are ignorant of our religion, or out to convert or deceive people. This poster neither agrees with our doctrines or is a member of our church. But this poster has learned a great deal, and comprehends a great deal, and that understanding continues to expand. And this poster does not antagonize, mock, or claim that LDS are ignorant of our doctrines, and this poster does not misrepresent LDS but repeatedly asks for clarification where needed. And this poster does not get bashed over the head in order to get the same comprehension for which you claim to be asking.

So you tell me what the difference is. Is it just that I'm a hothead and a jerk? Am I a respecter of persons? Do I just indiscriminately pick and choose which posters I'll confront, as opposed to those I'll go out of my way for? You tell me.

I hope you take this scripture to heart - Ephesians 4:26,27. It has served me in good stead and I pray that it will you, as well.

TasteForTruth · Jul 28, 2011

bbbbbbb said:
I hope you take this scripture to heart - Ephesians 4:26,27. It has served me in good stead and I pray that it will you, as well.

Okie Dokie.

TasteForTruth · Jul 29, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
No, you have not.

Well, you may opine however you wish, but the facts are there for all to see:

The glory of the Celestial Kingdom is the glory of that of the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 88:4-5)
All those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 76:94)
All those who are begotten sons and daughters of god are the church of the Firstborn (D&C 93:21-22)
Men and women are begotten sons and daughters of God when they are born again, which is promised to those who covenant with God via baptism/confirmation. (Mosiah 5:7; 27:25-26)
The church of the Firstborn enjoy the presence of the Father and Son. (D&C 107:19)
Those who are redeemed from their sins enjoy the presence of God in his kingdom (Mormon 7:7)

The above conditions apply to all those who inherit the CK—any of the three degrees.

Those who are exalted are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 76:54-59)

This condition additionally applies only to those who accept and are faithful in all the laws and ordinances of the gospel, including the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, who are exalted in the highest degree of the CK. (D&C 131:1-4; 132:6)

It is very clear that there is no contradiction. It is a pity that you refuse to see it.

Phoebe Ann said:
Only those who receive eternal life have kept the commandments in order to be unclean and be in the Father's presence.

**I think you meant to say "clean," so that's what I'm going with**

That may be true in the gospel you preach, but it is untrue in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ (see Mosiah 5:7; 27:25-26). Yours is a foreign gospel, to be sure. Even your big guns here—Joseph Fielding Smith—speaks against you:

...they who are clean in their lives; who are virtuous; who are honorable; but who will not receive this covenant of eternal marriage in the house of God, shall come forth-and they may even enter into the celestial kingdom...(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 62)

Phoebe Ann said:
If the repetition were as irritating as you claim it is, you surely wouldn't be repeating yourself. Christ said, " All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:1.

I'm not sure what you mean. I am repeating something that you have yet to directly address (although you have come close in this post). You, on the other hand, continue to repeat things upon which all have already agreed! You whine at me for not answering your questions, and after I do, you refuse to answer mine. Seems to me that you ought to internalize Matt. 7:1 before you preach it.

Phoebe Ann said:
In that case, please answer the question: Are rebellious people qualified to be in the Father's presence? Alma 5:27 “Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? "

Which question are you asking me here? The latter doesn't seem to be related to the former.

Phoebe Ann said:
Is there weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Celestial Kingdom?

Seeing as God weeps (Moses 7:29) in the Celestial Kingdom, and the heavens as well (v. 28, 27, 40), I would expect that others could, too. God wails and howls at times as well (Jer. 9:10; Micah 1:8). I have my doubts about gnashing of teeth, though. But who knows. If people can weep and wail and howl in heaven, why not gnash?

Phoebe Ann said:
Can official doctrine of the LDS church be supported by scripture?

LDS scripture is official doctrine.

Phoebe Ann said:
Matthew 7:1 After all, I've given my answer several times.

No. You haven't had the courtesy or courage to give me your answer. You've skirted around it, attempted to distract the discussion, and preached to me messages that you yourself need to internalize. You have done everything but answer me.

Phoebe Ann said:
BTW, I haven't wasted your time. I wouldn't hold a gun to any Mormon's head except in self defense or to make a citizen's arrest. If you believe you are wasting your time, you might want to rethink your decision to do so.

Ah yes. It's all me and none of you. When I'm not answering your questions, I'm worthy of reproof, but when I expect you to answer mine, I'm wasting my own time. Oh so true. Oh so true. I'm afraid that I can't disagree with you on that one.

TasteForTruth · Jul 29, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
Eternal life is life in the presence of the Father and the Son. Those who receive it become members of the Church of the Firstborn and are heirs as sons and daughters of God. They receive the fulness of blessings. They become like the Father and the Son and are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 9

Eternal life is the phrase used in scripture to define the quality of life that our Eternal Father lives. The Lord declared, This is my work and my gloryto bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:14). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel (Articles of Faith 1:3).
Eternal Life

Goodie. And your point is?

Rescued One · Jul 29, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
Well, you may opine however you wish, but the facts are there for all to see:

The glory of the Celestial Kingdom is the glory of that of the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 88:4-5)

All those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 76:94)

Doctrine and Covenants 76
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

This isn't speaking of those who did not obtain exaltation.

TasteForTruth said:

[*]All those who are begotten sons and daughters of god are the church of the Firstborn (D&C 93:21-22)
[*]Men and women are begotten sons and daughters of God when they are born again, which is promised to those who covenant with God via baptism/confirmation. (Mosiah 5:7; 27:25-26)

Click to expand...

That makes me a begotten daughter of God. I was baptized and confirmed.

But, really, if all inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters of God, why are some not in the Church of the Firstborn?

You're saying that the new birth is promised unconditionally --- that would remove man's agency.

D&C 76
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

TasteForTruth said:

[*]The church of the Firstborn enjoy the presence of the Father and Son. (D&C 107:19)
[*]Those who are redeemed from their sins enjoy the presence of God in his kingdom (Mormon 7:7)

The above conditions apply to all those who inherit the CKany of the three degrees.

Click to expand...

Please show us that those who refuse celestial marriage will be in the Father's presence.

TasteForTruth · Jul 29, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
Doctrine and Covenants 76
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

This isn't speaking of those who did not obtain exaltation.

That was cute how you slipped verse 95 in there, which I did not include in my quote. Verse 94, however, most certainly applies to all those in the CK. Nice try though.

Phoebe Ann said:
That makes me a begotten daughter of God. I was baptized and confirmed.

True, but you jumped ship. As you are so fond of pointing out, one must endure in faith to the end. Dead works avail us nothing. Again, nice try.

Phoebe Ann said:
But, really, if all inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters of God, why are some not in the Church of the Firstborn?

Who said that all inhabitants of the earth are begotten sons and daughters unto God?

Phoebe Ann said:
You're saying that the new birth is promised unconditionally --- that would remove man's agency.

Uh, these were my exact words: "Men and women are begotten sons and daughters of God when they are born again, which is promised to those who covenant with God via baptism/confirmation." I see nothing in there that speaks of unconditional anything. :scratch:

Another nice try.

Phoebe Ann said:
Please show us that those who refuse celestial marriage will be in the Father's presence.

You want me to show you again? OK.

Joseph Fielding Smith said:

...they who are clean in their lives; who are virtuous; who are honorable; but who will not receive this covenant of eternal marriage in the house of God, shall come forth-and they may even enter into the celestial kingdom...(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 62)

Some of those who are clean and virtuous, but who refuse—"will not"—to enter into celestial marriage, may yet enter into the Celestial Kingdom anyhow. Who dwells in the Celestial Kingdom? Heavenly Father (D&C 76:92).

Rescued One · Jul 29, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
Seeing as God weeps (Moses 7:29) in the Celestial Kingdom, and the heavens as well (v. 28, 27, 40), I would expect that others could, too. God wails and howls at times as well (Jer. 9:10; Micah 1:8). I have my doubts about gnashing of teeth, though. But who knows. If people can weep and wail and howl in heaven, why not gnash?

Mosiah 2
41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
(Bold mine)

Psalm 16
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

TasteForTruth · Jul 29, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
Mosiah 2
41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
(Bold mine)

Psalm 16
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Yeah, God is a complex being, isn't He—just and merciful, the beginning and the end, etc. Might seem kind of strange to us mortals that He could live in never-ending happiness, but still weep for his willfully-doomed children, but you know what He says...

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8-9)

RufustheRed · Jul 29, 2011

ldsfaqs said:
Makes one wonder if some people even Partake of the Sacrament.

Taking the Sacrament is essentially being "born again" over and over again.

That leaves out the act of baptism as part of being "born again", then. The Bible say that we are to have ONE Faith and ONE baptism.

ldsfaqs said:
Otherwise, what is the purpose of it, if once saved always saved? There is no doctrine in the Bible of once saved always saved. That's a Protestant invention.

I know that you abhor Protestants, I see that you ain't no fan of the KJV Bible, either, are you? I thought that that you guys believed in the Bible (insofar as translated correctly). Is Matthew 24:24 translated in correctly?

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I suppose that Mark 13:22 ranks right down there, too. Too bad. I happen to think that when God saves someone they pretty much stay saved.

Rufus :wave:

Rescued One · Jul 29, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
Yeah, God is a complex being, isn't Hejust and merciful, the beginning and the end, etc. Might seem kind of strange to us mortals that He could live in never-ending happiness, but still weep for his willfully-doomed children, but you know what He says...
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8-9)

First of all, we weren't talking about God.

Psalm 16
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Rescued One · Jul 29, 2011

TasteForTruth said:
Joseph Fielding Smith said:...they who are clean in their lives; who are virtuous; who are honorable; but who will not receive this covenant of eternal marriage in the house of God, shall come forth-and they may even enter into the celestial kingdom...(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 62)
Some of those who are clean and virtuous, but who refuse—"will not"—to enter into celestial marriage, may yet enter into the Celestial Kingdom anyhow.

And you kept saying that they are sons and daughters and members of the Church of the Firstborn.

"ALL MEN TO BE EITHER SERVANTS OR SONS."
Joseph Fielding Smith

McConkie emphasizes that, to be sons of God and joint-heirs with Christ, men must obtain the higher Melchezidek priesthood (the same priesthood Christ bears), magnify their calling in it, enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, and be obedient in all things. He says that “those who become the sons of God in this life (1 John 3:1-3) are the ones who by enduring in continued righteousness will be gods in eternity" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:58). So, while Mormons believe that all men are sons of God in the pre-mortal existence because there they were "born" as spirit children to him, whether they remain sons of God in the hereafter will depend upon their fulfilling His requirements here on earth. Child of God - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

Eternal life is life in the presence of the Father and the Son. Those who receive it become members of the ‘Church of the Firstborn’ and are heirs as sons and daughters of God. They receive the fulness of blessings. They become like the Father and the Son and are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 9

If you would become a son or daughter of God and an heir of the kingdom, then you must go to the house of the Lord and receive blessings which there can be obtained and which cannot be obtained elsewhere; and you must keep those commandments and those covenants to the end. . . .Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 40

Do you want to go on in this brief span that is called mortality, loving the fashions---the temptations, the allurements, all that the world can offer---because they are pleasant, and then come up in the resurrection from the dead to be a servant, to wait upon those who "who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and eternal weight of glory"?
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 62

Who desires to enter the eternal world and be a servant, when the promise is held out that we may be sons and daughters? Yet there will be the vast majority who will enter into the eternal world as servants, and not as sons, and this simply because they think more of the world and its covenants, than they do of God and his covenants; simply because in their blindness of heart, they refuse to keep these sacred and holy commandments. Oh, what bitterness there will be in the day of judgment, when every man receives his reward according to his works!
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 64-65

TasteForTruth said:
Who dwells in the Celestial Kingdom? Heavenly Father (D&C 76:92).

I agree that that is LDS teaching. What I can't find is something that says he visits the lower levels.

TasteForTruth · Jul 29, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
And you kept saying that they are sons and daughters and members of the Church of the Firstborn.

The scriptures say that they are. Joseph Fielding Smith's words reflect the objective of God's work. They are the message that we preach. We are not authorized to preach angelhood. His words, however do not nullify any of God's words, including these, which you continue to try to make go away by pretending they don't exist (except in the thread where you tried to make some of them say things they don't):

The glory of the Celestial Kingdom is the glory of that of the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 88:4-5)
All those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 76:94)
All those who are begotten sons and daughters of god are the church of the Firstborn (D&C 93:21-22)
Men and women are begotten sons and daughters of God when they are born again, which is promised to those who covenant with God via baptism/confirmation. (Mosiah 5:7; 27:25-26)
The church of the Firstborn enjoy the presence of the Father and Son. (D&C 107:19)
Those who are redeemed from their sins enjoy the presence of God in his kingdom (Mormon 7:7)

Phoebe Ann said:
I agree that that is LDS teaching. What I can't find is something that says he visits the lower levels.

The Celestial Kingdom is just thatthe Celestial Kingdom, where God the Father dwells. You can't visit what is your own dwelling if you're already and always there. Nice try though.

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