Behold A Pale Horse !

NightHawkeye · Jul 4, 2011

1whirlwind said:
The bread is truth, the rock is Christ, the waters, the trees, the temple, etc.....are all people. The serpent, dragon, leviathan, etc are all Satan. That isn't fanciful...it is truth.

OK ... let's look at some of these ... beginning with the first trumpet ...

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Lots of imagery here ... blood is literal for sure ... kinda thinking that means fire and hail are also literal. Green grass also gotta be literal ... lots of precedents in Bible for literal green grass. So, if green grass was burnt up and trees burnt up, then trees gonna be literal, too, yes? Both burned up by fire being cast upon the earth. Hmm ... that makes earth literal, too, yes? Lots of precedents in Bible for literal earth.

Wouldn't seem to leave much room for fanciful figurative interpretations, Whirlwind.

But, maybe the second trumpet is different ...

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Well, blood's still literal here ... but I'll grant that mountain and sea also carry figurative interpretations ... not necessarily here, though.

Moving on ...

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Again, an obvious mix of literal and figurative ...

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Looks nearly all literal to me, Whirlwind. I mean sun, moon, stars, the day darkened

1whirlwind said:
Why then should we place the locust in today's modern vernacular of...helicopters?

Two good reasons come to mind ...
a) earlier trumpets carried many obvious and overwhelmingly literal terms ...
b) helicopters closely match the physical characteristics described for the locusts.

... you asked ...

1whirlwind said:
Especially when He tells us their purpose....
Deuteronomy 28:38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.

28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.

Deuteronomy is highly literal and the context of the verses you cite make them literal as well.

1whirlwind said:
Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, My great army which I sent among you.

That's a great verse, Whirlwind ... let's examine the context to determine literal vs figurative.

Joel 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

One obvious disconnect here ... Joel refers to years of locusts eating, whereas Revelation refers to locusts "stinging" like scorpions for five months ...

It appears that the locusts of Revelation are quite unlike the locusts of Joel ... except for flying ... and even when flying don't sound like the locusts of Joel.

The locusts of Revelation don't even eat ... they just sting.

1whirlwind said:
Those aren't helicopters. And, the folks farther back than 2,000 years ago described flying chariots. They weren't termed locusts.

Interesting point, Whirlwind ... not good for your argument ... but certainly an interesting coincidence.

Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

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1whirlwind · Jul 4, 2011

NightHawkeye said:
OK ... let's look at some of these ... beginning with the first trumpet ...

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Lots of imagery here ... blood is literal for sure ... kinda thinking that means fire and hail are also literal. Green grass also gotta be literal ... lots of precedents in Bible for literal green grass. So, if green grass was burnt up and trees burnt up, then trees gonna be literal, too, yes? Both burned up by fire being cast upon the earth. Hmm ... that makes earth literal, too, yes? Lots of precedents in Bible for literal earth.

Wouldn't seem to leave much room for fanciful figurative interpretations, Whirlwind.

Blood is life

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Fire is His spoken Word

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Psalm 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling His word:

Jeremiah 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make My words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Jeremiah 23:29 Is not My word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Hail are prophets....true and fale

See Psalm 148:8 above.

Ezekiel 13:9-11 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Isaiah 30:30 And the LORD shall cause His glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Grass...people

Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Isaiah 40:6-7 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

But, maybe the second trumpet is different ...

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Well, blood's still literal here ... but I'll grant that mountain and sea also carry figurative interpretations ... not necessarily here, though.

Moving on ...

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Again, an obvious mix of literal and figurative ...

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Looks nearly all literal to me, Whirlwind. I mean sun, moon, stars, the day darkened

Sun... our Savior

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Stars are angels

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the sevenstars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Moon....Satan

Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Two good reasons come to mind ...
a) earlier trumpets carried many obvious and overwhelmingly literal terms ...
b) helicopters closely match the physical characteristics described for the locusts.

... you asked ...

Deuteronomy is highly literal and the context of the verses you cite make them literal as well.

Did you notice the verses quoted from Deuteronomy teaching us that things are not as literal as we may believe?

That's a great verse, Whirlwind ... let's examine the context to determine literal vs figurative.

Joel 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Rain is the word of the Lord

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

Click to expand...

Wheat, rye, barley, etc....people, souls. Wine - blood of the Lord. Oil - truth.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

Click to expand...

The locust harm for years, most of that time underground...out of sight. The stages of the locust are listed in the above verse.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

One obvious disconnect here ... Joel refers to years of locusts eating, whereas Revelation refers to locusts "stinging" like scorpions for five months ...

The locusts have eaten for years....they, or their leaders, control the world through oil (and our leaders allow it because we won't drill as we should). They've eaten away at our finances for a long time. The five months of stinging as scorpions is going on today...Arab Spring.

The tails of the locusts are as scorpions and that is what stings. The tails are...false prophets.

Ezekiel 2:6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

Isaiah 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

It appears that the locusts of Revelation are quite unlike the locusts of Joel ... except for flying ... and even when flying don't sound like the locusts of Joel.

The locusts of Revelation don't even eat ... they just sting.

They swarm, devour, consume. Their tails sting.

Interesting point, Whirlwind ... not good for your argument ... but certainly an interesting coincidence.

Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

.

A swarm of helicopters or a swarm of people.....that is the question.

.

NightHawkeye · Jul 4, 2011

1whirlwind said:
Blood is life
...
Fire is His spoken Word

...

Hail are prophets....true and fale

...

Grass...people

...

Sun... our Savior

...

Stars are angels

...

Moon....Satan

...

Rain is the word of the Lord

...

Wheat, rye, barley, etc....people, souls. Wine - blood of the Lord. Oil - truth.

.

I'm impressed, Whirlwind. There seems to be a figurative interpretation for most of the main elements of Revelation. Without doubt, much of Revelation is figurative. The four horsemen of the apocalypse are certainly figurative ... although I'm sure we disagree on the figures, LOL.

White horse ... Religious conquests
Red horse ... Marxism/communism/socialism
Black horse rider ... capitalism
Pale/green horse rider ... environmentalism

Yet, it would seem that the first trumpet is literal. Consider ...

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Matthew 24 says much the same, but also adds additional details

...These verses are about the literal world. Note especially the fact that wars and rumors of wars are the beginning of sorrows. Consider also that trumpets traditionally have announced battles ... exactly like the first trumpet appears to do ...

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Looking entirely literal to me, Whirlwind ... especially since it would seem to dovetail nicely with prophecies in both Mark and Matthew.

Seems convincing to me.

BTW, did I miss your authoritative reference for figuratively defining trees, Whirlwind?

1whirlwind said:
A swarm of helicopters or a swarm of people.....that is the question.

.

LOL ... and if we agreed, we wouldn't be having this discussion ...

.

1whirlwind · Jul 5, 2011

NightHawkeye said:
I'm impressed, Whirlwind. There seems to be a figurative interpretation for most of the main elements of Revelation. Without doubt, much of Revelation is figurative. The four horsemen of the apocalypse are certainly figurative ... although I'm sure we disagree on the figures, LOL.

White horse ... Religious conquests
Red horse ... Marxism/communism/socialism
Black horse rider ... capitalism
Pale/green horse rider ... environmentalism

We're in agreement on the white horse although we have different names. Mine is the white army and they are his religious conquests. They are those the rider has conquered.

Red horse...yes.

Black horse. Why capitalism? I've been unsure about this one. Just lately thinking (as it is black) it would be his undercover army. The leaders, kings, presidents, financial experts, IMF, Fed, White house czars, etc....all controlling politics and finance. Sort of a big stew of the Bildebergs.

Pale/Green. On this one we disagree. Environmentalist are part of the this but I'm sticking with the flood of ungodly people from the Euphrates as the locust army.

Yet, it would seem that the first trumpet is literal. Consider ...

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Matthew 24 says much the same, but also adds additional details

...These verses are about the literal world. Note especially the fact that wars and rumors of wars are the beginning of sorrows. Consider also that trumpets traditionally have announced battles ... exactly like the first trumpet appears to do ...

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Looking entirely literal to me, Whirlwind ... especially since it would seem to dovetail nicely with prophecies in both Mark and Matthew.

I too believe the first trump was WW11 and it was the "beginning of sorrows," which I understand to be the seventy years of desolations. Same event...different name.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

The sorrows began with the literal desolations of Jerusalem (which refers to Jerusalem/God's children as His holy city...not a pile of buildings.) The desolations continued through the seventy years...ending in 2009. Oddly, that was the year Obama took over. :sorry:

After that the literal span of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1,260 days begins it's countdown and...that time has been shortened.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

As we agree that event was WW11 (we must be right

) and it was a literal war where literal people were killed but could it also be the type, the literal war foretelling the spiritual battle?

In the first trump there are descriptions of hail, fire, blood, trees, grass, etc. From the previous post we see these being explained for what they represent. The hail beginning that war would be the false prophet (Hitler) and the fire issuing from his mouth....his words - lies and hatred which caused death. The trees and grass, also symbolic of people, were literally destroyed.

If that was the type, which I believe it to be then Hitler was a type of one that will stand causing death but will it be literal death? At the first trump 1/3 of the trees (people) and all the grass (people) were burnt up. At the sixth trump it again happens but I believe it will be spiritual death of the 1/3.....

Revelation 9:13-15 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

1/3 of the trees/men.

9:16-18 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Out of the mouths of the horsemen (fallen angels?) comes fire (words) and smoke (deception) and brimstone...

Brimstone is really interesting! In the Old Testament it is judgment from God. As used in this instance it is "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease." The etymology of the word is "Probably of θεῖος (G2304) (in its original sense of flashing)."

Ezekiel 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Lightning is symbolic of messengers, angels....from both sides of the equation. Flashes of lightning are living creatures. Those angelic fallen beings, issuing fire, smoke and brimstone from their mouths appear as flashes of lightning...as angels. Why is brimstone from their mouth? Dunno...maybe because their deception judges those that follow them to be saved?

Seems convincing to me.

BTW, did I miss your authoritative reference for figuratively defining trees, Whirlwind?

I forgot to add it but...here ya' go (and notice too..the mountains singing)....

Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

There is a large variety of trees planted by God. Some are figs, some palms, some olives...all have a purpose. And, lest we forget....the Tree of Life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

LOL ... and if we agreed, we wouldn't be having this discussion ...

.

True and I do enjoy our discussions. :wave:

.

NightHawkeye · Jul 5, 2011

1whirlwind said:
Black horse. Why capitalism?

Come ... look, see ...

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

What do we know?
- The horse is painted black ... (as if evil ... the first horse was white, as if good)
- The rider has a pair of balances ... (indicating measure of fairness)
- Goods for money ... (a capital exchange ...

)
- Grain, oil, wine ???

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

Capitalism (which is synonymous with USA now) is painted as evil throughout much of the world ... yet it explicitly offers freedom of religious expression ... even now still.

Notice also the coincidences with God's rains ... which have also been abundant under capitalism.

1whirlwind said:
I've been unsure about this one.

As was I before this thread.

1whirlwind said:
Just lately thinking (as it is black) it would be his undercover army. The leaders, kings, presidents, financial experts, IMF, Fed, White house czars, etc....all controlling politics and finance. Sort of a big stew of the Bilderbergs.

Remember that symbols are not always what they seem ... much evil resulted from religious conquests ... much good has resulted from capitalism. At least a goodly number of the leaders under capitalism have taken their jobs seriously and worked to improve things ... of course, some number were just downright rotten ... not unlike humanity generally.

1whirlwind said:
Pale/Green. On this one we disagree. Environmentalist are part of the this but I'm sticking with the flood of ungodly people from the Euphrates as the locust army.

Of course you do ... step away from that locust army.

Look at other possibilities. If the locust army is correct then it'll still be correct after you examine other possibilities.

1whirlwind said:
I too believe the first trump was WW11 and it was the "beginning of sorrows," which I understand to be the seventy years of desolations. Same event...different name.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

The sorrows began with the literal desolations of Jerusalem (which refers to Jerusalem/God's children as His holy city...not a pile of buildings.) The desolations continued through the seventy years...ending in 2009. Oddly, that was the year Obama took over.

Or, perhaps not so oddly ...

1whirlwind said:
As we agree that event was WW11 (we must be right ) and it was a literal war where literal people were killed but could it also be the type, the literal war foretelling the spiritual battle?

As the four horsemen of the apocalypse are consistent symbols of literal activities, why would the trumpets not be literal? God knows enough people died during WWII for it to qualify as a horrendous literal event.

1whirlwind said:
In the first trump there are descriptions of hail, fire, blood, trees, grass, etc.

Exactly ...

... simplicity is good.

Why settle for figurative when literal exists?

1whirlwind said:
I forgot to add it but...here ya' go (and notice too..the mountains singing)....

Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

There is a large variety of trees planted by God. Some are figs, some palms, some olives...all have a purpose. And, lest we forget....the Tree of Life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Thanks.

1whirlwind said:
True and I do enjoy our discussions.

Likewise ... discussion is good.

.

1whirlwind · Jul 6, 2011

NightHawkeye said:
Come ... look, see ...

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

What do we know?
- The horse is painted black ... (as if evil ... the first horse was white, as if good)
- The rider has a pair of balances ... (indicating measure of fairness)
- Goods for money ... (a capital exchange ... )
- Grain, oil, wine ???

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

Capitalism (which is synonymous with USA now) is painted as evil throughout much of the world ... yet it explicitly offers freedom of religious expression ... even now still.

Notice also the coincidences with God's rains ... which have also been abundant under capitalism.

I believe you have been given a revelation! :clap:

I still have to search the scriptures to see whether it is so but it rings true to me.

As was I before this thread.

As you said, "discussion is good."

WW - Pale/Green. On this one we disagree. Environmentalist are part of the this but I'm sticking with the flood of ungodly people from the Euphrates as the locust army.

Night - Of course you do ... step away from that locust army.

If I stepped away from what I believe is true, what I believe I have been shown....then I would be committing the unpardonable sin. Truly, the more I study the more certain I am.

John the Baptist, a man child was given meat, deeper understanding of the locusts and wild honey. (by the way....he couldn't consume helicopters intellectually or physically)

Matthew 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

He was given to understand the locusts and their wild honey. The land we strive for is a land of milk and honey. Once weaned from milk we consume honey and it opens our eyes.....

1 Samuel 14:29 Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.

But there is honey (truth) and there is wild honey (deception)....

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wertgrafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Gentiles are the wild olive trees and their honey is wild honey. The locusts are Gentiles. John was given to understand who they are and what they teach....locusts and wild honey.

Look at other possibilities. If the locust army is correct then it'll still be correct after you examine other possibilities.

The two possibilities I see are helicopters coming out of the smoke of the pit or locusts/Islamic hordes coming out of the smoke of deception. I see Islam as the answer.

Or, perhaps not so oddly ...

As the four horsemen of the apocalypse are consistent symbols of literal activities, why would the trumpets not be literal? God knows enough people died during WWII for it to qualify as a horrendous literal event.

It was literal. I think the literal WW11 is the type for the spiritual war when souls will be deceived.

Exactly ...

... simplicity is good.

Why settle for figurative when literal exists?

Because literal points to spiritual.

Thanks.

You're welcome...I enjoy pointing out figurative explanations.

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NightHawkeye · Jul 6, 2011

1whirlwind said:
I believe you have been given a revelation! I still have to search the scriptures to see whether it is so but it rings true to me.

It was certainly a revelation to me ... LOL.

Bottom line is that horses are consistently used in wars throughout scripture ... literally or figuratively.

Job 39:19 Do you give the horse his strength or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make him leap like a locust, striking terror with his proud snorting?
21 He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength, and charges into the fray.
22 He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing; he does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against his side, along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground; he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, Aha! He catches the scent of battle from afar, the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

There are other clues in Revelation 6, as well ...

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

We are told that the white horse rider is a warrior ... white, as if good ... ergo, a holy warrior ...

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Another warrior ... doing exactly what Marxism/communism/socialism has been about ... class warfare and revolution and continuing genocide.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Interestingly, there are no explicit references to the black horseman being a warrior. Instead, explicit references to benevolence are given.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This guy is explicitly given as a warrior ... but is accompanied by hunger and death. But, what does it mean to kill with the beasts of the earth? beast out of the sea? beast from the land?

Environmentalism spans multiple beasts ... what else does?

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1whirlwind · Jul 6, 2011

Originally Posted by NightHawkeye
It was certainly a revelation to me ... LOL.

I pulled a lot of verses on the topic and then...zap, lost it all. However, from what I saw I think you're right. I still have reservations...questions, but overall I think you're definitely on to something.

Bottom line is that horses are consistently used in wars throughout scripture ... literally or figuratively.

Job 39:19 Do you give the horse his strength or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make him leap like a locust, striking terror with his proud snorting?
21 He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength, and charges into the fray.
22 He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing; he does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against his side, along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground; he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, Aha! He catches the scent of battle from afar, the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

That's funny....I just heard that very passage while watching the beginning of the movie Secretariat a few nights ago. I took notice because of the mention of both horse and locust together. In case you haven't seen it...it was a really good movie.

But this is taking us right back to the locust army. That passage, to me, is an apt description of the pale/green horse...the Islamic army, not environmentalism. For instance, "the flowing mane" on the horse/army....

1 Corinthians 11:15 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

All the other verses are highly descriptive of the green army...not helicopters or the environment.

Or...

There are other clues in Revelation 6, as well ...

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
We are told that the white horse rider is a warrior ... white, as if good ... ergo, a holy warrior ...
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Another warrior ... doing exactly what Marxism/communism/socialism has been about ... class warfare and revolution and continuing genocide.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Interestingly, there are no explicit references to the black horseman being a warrior. Instead, explicit references to benevolence are given.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This guy is explicitly given as a warrior ... but is accompanied by hunger and death. But, what does it mean to kill with the beasts of the earth? beast out of the sea? beast from the land?

Environmentalism spans multiple beasts ... what else does?

.

The beasts of the earth are men, some wicked, some evil, some misled. I don't think the majority of them care about saving the environment. The fourth and last horse/army is ridden by Death and Hell follows meaning.... The end is near! Their leader Death/Satan is given (by God) power over much of the earth. This army kills literally with swords but His white horse army kills them and all those that believe him....spiritually with the sword (false word) and hunger for truth.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

.

Rant · Jul 6, 2011

I see The Boys Club IS Just Fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why Should i put my 2 Cent SS IN!

Rant · Jul 6, 2011

I will skip!

NightHawkeye · Jul 6, 2011

1whirlwind said:
That's funny....I just heard that very passage while watching the beginning of the movie Secretariat a few nights ago. I took notice because of the mention of both horse and locust together. In case you haven't seen it...it was a really good movie.

Yeah, I did. Still even remember a little of it ... unlike a lot of movies which are entirely forgettable.

1whirlwind said:
But this is taking us right back to the locust army. That passage, to me, is an apt description of the pale/green horse...the Islamic army, not environmentalism. For instance, "the flowing mane" on the horse/army....

OK ... I checked further on green ...

Symbols of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The color green has a special place in Islam. It is used in the decoration of mosques, the bindings of Qur'ans, the silken covers for the graves of Sufi saints, and in the flags of various Muslim countries. Green has been associated with Islam for many centuries. The colour green was the colour used by Muhammads tribe on their flags. According to muslims the colour green symbolizes nature and life. In the Qur'an (Surah 76:21 http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=76&vid=21 ), it is said that the inhabitants of paradise will wear green garments of fine silk. The colour green has been considered especially Islamic for centuries. Crusaders avoided using any green in their coats of arms, so that they could not possibly be mistaken for their Muslim opponents in the heat of battle.

From your OP I thought green was just Libya's color ... makes the four horsemen of the apocalypse pretty consistent now, huh? With that in mind, here's a look at that fourth horseman again ...

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Death and Hell ... check
1/4 of earth ... check
kill with sword ... check
kill with hunger ... check
kill with beasts of earth ... hmm, verdict's still out ... sounds ominous though

And ...
- First horse ... white ... religious conquests
- Second horse ... red ... Marxism/communism/socialism
- Third horse ... black ... capitalism
- Fourth horse ... green ... Islam

That's got an entirely modern twist to it ... religious conquests lasted for centuries ... Marxism took root last century, although class struggles existed somewhat earlier and grew in parallel with capitalism as it blossomed. (The rich got richer and the poor poorer?) Only recently has Islam come to exert a powerful deadly influence though.

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1whirlwind · Jul 7, 2011

NightHawkeye said:
Yeah, I did. Still even remember a little of it ... unlike a lot of movies which are entirely forgettable.

OK ... I checked further on green ...

Symbols of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The color green has a special place in Islam. It is used in the decoration of mosques, the bindings of Qur'ans, the silken covers for the graves of Sufi saints, and in the flags of various Muslim countries. Green has been associated with Islam for many centuries. The colour green was the colour used by Muhammads tribe on their flags. According to muslims the colour green symbolizes nature and life. In the Qur'an (Surah 76:21 http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=76&vid=21 ), it is said that the inhabitants of paradise will wear green garments of fine silk. The colour green has been considered especially Islamic for centuries. Crusaders avoided using any green in their coats of arms, so that they could not possibly be mistaken for their Muslim opponents in the heat of battle.

From your OP I thought green was just Libya's color ... makes the four horsemen of the apocalypse pretty consistent now, huh? With that in mind, here's a look at that fourth horseman again ...

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Death and Hell ... check
1/4 of earth ... check
kill with sword ... check
kill with hunger ... check
kill with beasts of earth ... hmm, verdict's still out ... sounds ominous though

And ...
- First horse ... white ... religious conquests
- Second horse ... red ... Marxism/communism/socialism
- Third horse ... black ... capitalism
- Fourth horse ... green ... Islam

That's got an entirely modern twist to it ... religious conquests lasted for centuries ... Marxism took root last century, although class struggles existed somewhat earlier and grew in parallel with capitalism as it blossomed. (The rich got richer and the poor poorer?) Only recently has Islam come to exert a powerful deadly influence though.

.

I see those horses as coming into being long, long ago. Look at Biblical characters as pieces on a chess board...the board being our world. God placed them in their positions.

From Adam - the line to Christ through Abraham
From Satan - tares, Kenites through Cain (false religion white horse)

From Abraham came Ishmael and Isaac

From Isaac came Esau and Jacob

From Jacob/Israel came Christians and Jews (black horse)

From Esau came....Russia (red horse)

From Ishmael came Islam (green horse)

From Genesis they/we have been racing toward the end.

The following are some excerpts from an article about Islam and it's beginning. I find it very telling that a photo of twin towers are shown with their Mecca shrine (a black rock!)

Deuteronomy 32:31-33 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

How Islam Began, in 700 Words or Less

Posted on October 4, 2010 by CJ Werleman| 10 Comments

In the year of 570 A.D, the Middle East was a battlefield between the Roman and Persian Empires; and between the Church of the East (Nestoria) and the Church of Rome. Amongst these struggles for power and control, Mohammad was born in the city of Mecca. His father died a few months before he was born, and his mother, Amina, was said to have been of ill-health. Subsequently, at the age of two, he was sent to live with foster parents.

At age six, Mohammads natural mother passed away, and his foster parents handballed him on to his grand father. He passed away, and then he went to live with an uncle, Abu Talib. His uncle was a merchant who traveled all over the region in the caravans, and it was he who hired the then ten-year-old as a camel driver. For the proceeding 15 years or so, Mohammad traveled all over the desert, from Yemen to Damascus. Camel driving became his life, and although it provided him the opportunity to meet and see a diverse range of Mid East cultures, it offered a modest wage.

Good fortune found him, however, at the age of twenty-five. Fortune by way of a wealthy cougar, fifteen years his senior. Khadija, a divorcee, had acquired a relatively large sum of money and property, enabling the illiterate camel driver to forgo his career for the pursuit of prayer, meditation, and deep thought. Over the course of the next ten years, his wife would bear him six children: four girls and two boys. But before you say, Mohammad, you ole sweetheart, you, he would marry another fifteen women during the next thirty or so years, including many more concubines. Of his fifteen wives, he would consummate with thirteen. Well, one of his wives, Aisha, was only eight years of age on the day of their wedding, but she was observant enough to remark, somewhat accusatory of her husband, It seems to me that your Lord hastens you satisfy your desire (Sahih Muslim vol.2 book

Although much of the Mecca and Medina region were pagan worshippers, Mohammed was drawn to the God of the Bible, Yahweh. Becoming increasingly obsessed with religious belief, he began to spend much of his time alone in a cave. At the age of 40, no coincidence to the obsession the Bible has with this number, a remarkable course of events (if you believe it) takes place. The story, undoubtedly borrows its mythology from the Moses narrative, tells of a cloud descending upon his mountain. The voice of an angel summons him to wake, Read! Muhammad rubbed his eyes, and saw before him the angel Gabriel. Read, said the ghostly one, again. Mohammed again answered that he was illiterate, before asking, What can I read? The angel replied, Read in the name of your Lord, the Creator, Who created man from a clot of blood! Read! Your Lord is most merciful, for he has taught men by pen, and revealed mysteries to them!

The angel handed Mohammad a scroll, and when he awoke the next morning, the scroll was gone but he had memorized all that was written. Excitedly, he told his wife, who assured him he wasnt stark crazy mad, and it was she who encouraged him to evangelize the angels words to the people of his hometown, Mecca. Similar to the Jesus narrative, his people laughed him out of town, and he moved to Medina in 622 A.D. (This event marks the Hajj and the start of the Islamic calendar) There, he grew an army of hundreds of supporters. As his militia grew, Mohammad returned often to the cave, to meet with the angel for further instructions. Over the course of the next eight years, his small army of disciples had grown into a force to be reckoned with. The Muslims had arrived, and Mohammad was hell-bent on vengefully taking control of his home city, the town that had earlier rejected him. The Muslims attacked the pagan caravans and, before long, had forced their way to the shrine in Mecca. The Meccans surrendered without much of a fight, and the would-be prophet had prominent opponents (six men and four women) murdered.
(Its hard to deny that Islam is rooted in conquest. This outlook permeates throughout the Koran; whereby for all practical purposes, a great majority of the verses, contained within each of the 114 Suras (chapters), begins with make war with the unbeliever)

Mohammads show of power impressed Arabs everywhere, and thus it served to unite the Peninsula behind him. Two years later, Mohammad announced he had perfected the new religion, Islam. Shortly afterwards, mass conversions began. Learning from Christianitys appeal, Mohammad promised his followers an afterlife, encouraging the pagans to banish their time-consuming ceremonially weighty practices to follow the Jewish God version 2.1.

Islam then spread west to Spain; east to India; south to Indonesia. Today it is followed by nearly 1 billion people and is the fastest growing religion on our planet today. And thats 700 words or less.

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NightHawkeye · Jul 7, 2011

1whirlwind said:
I see those horses as coming into being long, long ago. Look at Biblical characters as pieces on a chess board...the board being our world. God placed them in their positions.

From Adam - the line to Christ through Abraham
From Satan - tares, Kenites through Cain (false religion white horse)

From Abraham came Ishmael and Isaac

From Isaac came Esau and Jacob

From Jacob/Israel came Christians and Jews (black horse)

From Esau came....Russia (red horse)

From Ishmael came Islam (green horse)

From Genesis they/we have been racing toward the end.

Kinda like pre-destination, huh?

Can't say I subscribe to that either, Whirlwind.

The water of life is freely offered ... to Jew and Gentile ...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Interesting paper about Islam though ...

.

1whirlwind · Jul 7, 2011

NightHawkeye said:
Kinda like pre-destination, huh?

Can't say I subscribe to that either, Whirlwind.

But it is written.....

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:

Romans 8:29-31 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

What can we say for it is written....some are predestined.

Deuteronomy 32:7-9 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD's portion is His people; Jacob is the lot of His inheritance.

From Deuteronomy again

we're told that The Most High divided the nations and it was He that separated the "sons of Adam." Among the sons of Adam is Abraham and from him....Isaac, Ishmael, Esau, Jacob....all of them, Russia, Islam, Christian and Jew...sons of Adam. He "set the bounds" of the sons of Adam but His inheritance is of Jacob.

The water of life is freely offered ... to Jew and Gentile ...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Predestination is a fact but that has no bearing on those that heareth taking of the water of life. He died for the propitation of the sins of the world...not just God's chosen. Predestination is true but Calvinism, as I understand it...is just wrong. There is free will for all to find salvation.

.

Interesting paper about Islam though ...

.

Thank you...I thought so too.

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NightHawkeye · Jul 7, 2011

Well, here's another piece of the puzzle ...

Zechariah 1:7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

This bears an uncanny resemblence to Revelation 6, but the difference in coloring had me puzzled yesterday. Note that there is no green horse, no black horse - instead speckled (i.e., bay, chestnut, brown, etc.) - and that the earth is at rest. It's also worth pointing out that the KJV is confusing about the number of horses, but that other versions indicate a total of four horses, just as there are in Revelation 6. The difference between horse colorings would seem to indicate a change in meaning attributable to each horse at distinctly different times in history.

The fact that the earth is at rest is clearly different from Revelation. These wandering spirits apparently act differently throughout history.

Bottom line is that the colorings reflect what those spirits are doing at the time Revelation 6 plays out.

I'm sticking with:
- First horse ... white ... religious conquests
- Second horse ... red ... Marxism/communism/socialism
- Third horse ... black ... capitalism
- Fourth horse ... green ... Islam

:wave:

1whirlwind · Jul 7, 2011

NightHawkeye said:
Well, here's another piece of the puzzle ...

Zechariah 1:7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Those were among the verses I pulled yesterday (those that are lost in space somewhere), when trying to delve into your revelation about the black horse. I too noticed the similarites as well as differences.

This bears an uncanny resemblence to Revelation 6, but the difference in coloring had me puzzled yesterday. Note that there is no green horse, no black horse - instead speckled (i.e., bay, chestnut, brown, etc.) - and that the earth is at rest. It's also worth pointing out that the KJV is confusing about the number of horses, but that other versions indicate a total of four horses, just as there are in Revelation 6. The difference between horse colorings would seem to indicate a change in meaning attributable to each horse at distinctly different times in history.

The fact that the earth is at rest is clearly different from Revelation. These wandering spirits apparently act differently throughout history.

Bottom line is that the colorings reflect what those spirits are doing at the time Revelation 6 plays out.

That sounds right.

I'm sticking with:
- First horse ... white ... religious conquests
- Second horse ... red ... Marxism/communism/socialism
- Third horse ... black ... capitalism
- Fourth horse ... green ... Islam

.

Then we are in agreement (almost). I agree with your revelation of the black horse but think of him more as spiritual truths and the American way (sounds like SuperMan) of which capitalism is part...just a different way of saying it. Much as the white horse, religious conquests being caused by false religion bringing death...the opposite side of the coin being black...bringing spiritual truths and life. If I named them it would be....

White Horse....false religion
Red Horse.......Communism, Marxism, etc.
Black Horse.....Spiritual truth found in the American way.
Green Horse....Islam

After watching various old movies on July 4th....there is no doubt in my mind, and hasn't been for a long time, that this nation of ours is founded and protected by God. All part of His great plan. The house of Israel was scattered and He threw us in the brier patch said B'rer Rabbit.

The older I've become the more proud I am of our soldiers. I know they're not all John Wayne but they are real and they are brave. Seeing what they did on D-Day, knowing they were just barely grown boys...so amazing.

.

NightHawkeye · Jul 7, 2011

1whirlwind said:
Then we are in agreement (almost). I agree with your revelation of the black horse but think of him more as spiritual truths and the American way (sounds like SuperMan) of which capitalism is part...just a different way of saying it. Much as the white horse, religious conquests being caused by false religion bringing death...the opposite side of the coin being black...bringing spiritual truths and life. If I named them it would be....

White Horse....false religion
Red Horse.......Communism, Marxism, etc.
Black Horse.....Spiritual truth found in the American way.
Green Horse....Islam

At the risk of nit-picking, the white horse is more like partial religion, part true and part false. Those pursuing conquest did so often under the pretense of religion ... doesn't mean false religion, just not the whole story.

As for the black horse, I think it far more than American, at least in terms of origin and extant ...

1whirlwind said:
After watching various old movies on July 4th....there is no doubt in my mind, and hasn't been for a long time, that this nation of ours is founded and protected by God. All part of His great plan. The house of Israel was scattered and He threw us in the brier patch said B'rer Rabbit.

The older I've become the more proud I am of our soldiers. I know they're not all John Wayne but they are real and they are brave. Seeing what they did on D-Day, knowing they were just barely grown boys...so amazing.

And while you indicate you see only spiritual warfare ahead, the past is full of physical warfare ...

.

1whirlwind · Jul 7, 2011

NightHawkeye said:
At the risk of nit-picking, the white horse is more like partial religion, part true and part false. Those pursuing conquest did so often under the pretense of religion ... doesn't mean false religion, just not the whole story.

Tree of knowledge of good and evil. The serpent in the garden used God's Words and then added his own twist.

As for the black horse, I think it far more than American, at least in terms of origin and extant ...

And while you indicate you see only spiritual warfare ahead, the past is full of physical warfare ...

.

I'm sticking with that.

.

1whirlwind · Jul 7, 2011

I wanted to add the reason I'm sticking to it......

As the serpent beguiled Eve...the serpent deceives us. He harmed Eve spiritually....not physically:

Psalm 105:15 Saying, Touch not Mine anointed, and do My prophets no harm.

Luke 21:17-19 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.

Satan is the deceiver...and part of the deception is that the great tribulation is a time of heads being lobbed off. It will be a time of peace and great, great tribulation/deception "as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." [Mt.24:21]

He comes on a white horse wearing a fake crown to conquer...through deception:

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Jeremiah 29:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is all about deception and the killing of our soul....

Matthew 20:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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NightHawkeye · Jul 7, 2011

1whirlwind said:
I wanted to add the reason I'm sticking to it......

As the serpent beguiled Eve...the serpent deceives us. He harmed Eve spiritually....not physically:

Satan is the deceiver...and part of the deception is that the great tribulation is a time of heads being lobbed off. It will be a time of peace and great, great tribulation/deception "as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." [Mt.24:21]

He comes on a white horse wearing a fake crown to conquer...through deception:

It is all about deception and the killing of our soul....

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... but never blame another for self-generated problems ... whether deceived or not. The most common human failing seems to be the need to blame someone or something else for problems we have brought on ourselves.

I think that may be where humility comes into play ... recognize the obvious and pray for forgiveness.

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Behold A Pale Horse !

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