Some Christians don't believe in demons

Thekla · May 23, 2011

Tim Myers said:
Those who believe will say everything from epilepsy to cancer to obesity to acne is caused by daemonic activity. Those who do not believe will offer a more objective, medical explanation for such things.....

Except me

who thinks demons do exist and attack, and who sees that similar symptoms can have different origins ...

sunlover1 · May 23, 2011

Thekla said:
Agreed - that's an important aspect I didn't address.

In all of these, it is best to turn to God.
All can be healed by the Healer - and in Him, all can be opportunities eventually for our spiritual benefit.

Always ... We can't know what God has in store. And He loves to show
His glory as He desires.
So whatever avenue HE chooses is what we submit to.
Examples: jesus smearing mud on a man... God hasn't changed.

Thekla said:
I do feel compelled to mention the following account:
among my good friends is a woman who was formerly a fervently devout born again Christian. She developed mental illness, and sought healing from this among those of her fellowship. There were several attempts through prayer, all unsuccessful. Finally she was told that in some sense she was "blocking" the healing; heartbroken, she now cannot stand to hear the name of Christ. Yet her values are still Christian, and I do not think it is Christ she is repulsed by - but the representation of Christ she learned from those who unsuccessfully tried to heal her through prayer.

I am thankful for all the hands God uses - even those of the medical field.
And I always pray for treatment teams - spiritual, medical, and the family.

And she may well have been.
I know, for example, that my anxiety is NOT from God
(nor is mental illness) Scripture is clear that fear is not
a fruit of God's Spirit ... and I also know that God desires
above ALL things, that I prosper and be in health, even
as my soul prospers...So what's left in the equation?
Me.
Do I hold unforgiveness in my heart? Disbelief? or maybe
that type comes out only by prayer and fasting

We are way too easily offended and that too is another
tool of the enemy.. Skandalon
I wonder how my (and your) friends would deal with what God might say to them as He did to these, His other disciples:

17Jesus said, You faithless and corrupt people! How long must I be with you?

How long must I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.

http://bible.cc/matthew/17-18.htm
18Then Jesus rebuked the demon in the boy, and it left him.

From that moment the boy was well.
19Afterward the disciples asked Jesus privately,

Why couldnt we cast out that demon?
20You dont have enough faith, Jesus told them

:preach:

I blame it on very poor teaching in the body.

Tim Myers · May 23, 2011

".....who thinks demons do exist and attack"

In what ways do you feel they "attack".......

Thekla · May 23, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Always ... We can't know what God has in store. And He loves to show
His glory as He desires.
So whatever avenue HE chooses is what we submit to.
Examples: jesus smearing mud on a man... God hasn't changed.

Indeed - in His way, in His time.

And she may well have been.
I know, for example, that my anxiety is NOT from God
(nor is mental illness) Scripture is clear that fear is not
a fruit of God's Spirit ... and I also know that God desires
above ALL things, that I prosper and be in health, even
as my soul prospers...So what's left in the equation?
Me.
Do I hold unforgiveness in my heart? Disbelief? or maybe
that type comes out only by prayer and fasting
We are way too easily offended and that too is another
tool of the enemy.. Skandalon
I wonder how my (and your) friends would deal with what God might say to them as He did to these, His other disciples:

17Jesus said, “You faithless and corrupt people! How long must I be with you?

How long must I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.”

18Then Jesus rebuked the demon in the boy, and it left him.

From that moment the boy was well.
19Afterward the disciples asked Jesus privately,

“Why couldn’t we cast out that demon?”
20“You don’t have enough faith,” Jesus told them

I blame it on very poor teaching in the body.

God does desire of course our health - and spiritual health comes first, as all will be restored and healed eventually.

As for my friend, and also for many who do love Christ and also struggle with ongoing illness - Childhood Diabetes, Arthritis, MS - the healing will be as God desires and in His time. Including one I knew whose prayers were answered by God on behalf of others who were healed, but struggled to his last with an onerous medical condition. Some who are not healed also become a blessing - a demonstration of deep faith - to others by their continuing great love for God in spite of their condition.

Sometimes, like Paul and the thorn (and like Abraham who waited and waited and followed still in faith and love) the struggle will be longer. What God wills, and what God permits, is sufficient for me - even though I don't always like it

But also, we are responsible both for those who are healed and those who are not. And if those who are not healed (in my friends case, Bipolar I with a strong familial history stretching back and wide) lose their faith because of our pride, I do not think we can write off our responsibility for them as well.

Thekla · May 23, 2011

Thekla said:
Except me
who thinks demons do exist and attack, and who sees that similar symptoms can have different origins ...

And some other cool folks on this board !

(You know who you are

)

Vendetta · May 24, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Wow, some big bragging going on there huh?
But of course then we know that this statement is false lol.
(Source is a liar by nature)

Usually, yet even demons cannot lie when they are commanded to speak by those wielding the strength that God grants. Catholic exorcists aren't allowed to ask anything except what they need to know. In this conversation, he needed to know it (I don't recall the reason). He commanded the demon to respond under the strength of the Trinity. The demon did so.

mark46 · May 24, 2011

I believe that Scott Peck's book is more than suggestive. I agree with his conclusions that demon possession is real, and rare. My mentor and first spriritual advisor had the same experience. I would note that Peck is a well-respected psychiatrist (and is now a Christian).

I believe that God heals mostly though doctors and medicine, and can certainly heal physical ailments without doctors or medicine if he so chooses. However there is also the very real phenomenon of possession.

The denial of the Evil One and his minions is a popular view among "modern" Christians. Perhaps we need to make sure that we use a better translation of the Lord's Prayer. We indeed need to pray to be delivered from the Evil One.

We hand our lives over to the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior (whether all at once or over time). The Holy Spirit lives within our hearts. The Way of God is inscribed on our hearts. It makes little sense that the Holy Spirit would allow possession of the adopted children of the Father. Besides the Evil One and demons do not have a spirit of their own. They literally need to take over our spirit.
=====================
THE GREY AREA
What about those possessed by the spirit of anxiety? of loneliness? of unforgiveness? of being unloved? or of low self esteem?

What about those who have "physical" ailments that are the result of stress? of overwork? or guilt?

Are these not "evil spirits"? Are these not demons? Are these not demons residing within us?

My answer is that these are indeed evil "spirits" but not demons. These are a result of our own mind and consequences of our own separation from God (sin). This is what is loosely called "spiritual illness". Did the Evil One tempt us to have these ailments (perhaps though his demons or through other people under the influence of sin)? Sure! But this is not the same as an indwelling demon.

As with physical ailments, there are many ways to treat this type of illness. Healing prayer works wonders! The sacraments work! Drugs can work. Counseling can work. Getting closer to God can help the most. It is much easier to combat the influences of the Evil One if we understand and feel the Love of God, the Mercy of God, and the continuous Presence of God.
==============
just my 2 cents

hedrick said:
I've read some accounts that seem suggestive, e.g. Scott Peck's People of the Lie. However he says that real demons are very rare. That seems consistent with my impression of the way things work in the world.

Thekla · May 24, 2011

I second that the translation of the Lord's Prayer should be more accurate

sunlover1 · May 24, 2011

Thekla said:
But also, we are responsible both for those who are healed and those who are not. .

We can rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn,
but Yeah, AFTER we try to get them delivered, amen?

Thekla said:
And some other cool folks on this board !

(You know who you are )

And me too Thekla, I agree with you and those other cool folks too

Vendetta said:
Usually, yet even demons cannot lie when they are commanded to speak by those wielding the strength that God grants..

Interesting.. anyhow, here's what Scripture says:

"[The devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44)

max1120 · May 24, 2011

Vendetta said:
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You haven't seen God, [presumably] angels, or a whole manner of supernatural things. Yet you believe in them. I see a contradiction.

This is all true.

Go hang out with occultists who practice magic, then. You will see. Or maybe you will not.

Well I really was never into the whole drugs and heavy metal thing in school. I was always more intellectual and hung out with a differnt group. Most of these guys had "looser" tattoed on their foreheads.

Wait, don't you believe that God, Himself three persons in one being, came down to perform miracles and die for the sins of the world; on the third day he rose from the dead and secured salvation for humanity. And you say that after all this, the idea of somebody giving themselves willfully to a being who offers promises of power is "far-fetched"?

Wait for it...

Wait for it? Wait for what? Should I be looking for a UPS or FedEx Truck to deliver my key to the Playboy Mansion or my invite to become supreme leader of the universe? You can not be serious..lol

Something sounds silly, but it's not what you're mocking.

Please understand I am not mocking you at all. I am just using humor to explain things I have a great deal of difficulty accepting as real. I appologize if I have offended you in any way.

I want you to find me all the sources that speak of a man, Jesus by name, being put to death by the Roman Empire, and resurrecting on the third day. What's that? There's relatively few sources, outside of religious texts that proclaim this man as deity? Weird. And...what's this? You don't find headlines about the tilma in Mexico? But it's miraculously survived centuries and is unscathed, while much better preserved materials deteriorate, in the same place, within decades? Miracles are all around you; it is you who chooses not to believe them.

For starters there was no CNN back then, a lot of things happen that are lost to time. Today events are beemed by satalite across the globe instantly.

My father is a police officer. His second year on the job, he got a domestic disturbance call. He and three other officers ended up at this house, where a mom had to call the cops on her son. My father and another man were around 160-180 lbs. The other two officers were well over 220. This kid was probably 200-220 himself. The kid was speaking in a voice that was not human. All four officers struggled to restrain this kid when he became violent. They had to strap him to...I believe it was a table/gurney type of thing, so they could get him out. My father and the other Christian officer then saw the kid begin levitating. The two non-Christian officers say they saw nothing. The officers went into the kid's room. It was full of pentagrams and occult items. This tale would be suspect to me, but if there is one thing my father has always detested, it's liars. He has always told the blatant truth to a fault, and so I cannot disregard what he told me here.

I have a great deal of respect for veteran officers such as your father. A friend of mine who is an officer once told me of a suspect who had strengh similar to what you father spoke of in the above story. This suspect kept coming at them even with six slugs in him. He was on PCP (Angle Dust), this drug causes users to act as you discribed in the above story.

Fr. Gabriele Amorth tells the tale of a priest that he (or his mentor, I forget which) invited to an exorcism. This priest did not believe in demons. The possessed person laughed at the priest and said, "You do not believe in us, but you believe in women. Oh, you believe in them." The priest then made a quick exit.

Fr Amorth is the Vatican Excorist correct? An interesting story to say the least. I would love to see a case of real possession, one with the possessed floating around and spining their heads 360 degrees, maybe singing backward in Aramaic. Seriously I would jump at the chance as it would answer some questions I have had reagarding this subject.

Demons exist, whether you believe it or not.

ElijahW · May 24, 2011

I think "meme" is the word that has replaced "demon" in modern use. Along with diseases, memes seems to be what is being described in the texts and what causes inappropriate behavior in people. Non temporal/spacial entities that exist and move within the minds of people. Memes are seen as just ideas now and were then to but back then they were idealists and saw the ideas as real.

The word Demon gets used in a derogatory way but that is more of a middle Platonism development when they establish clean and unclean spirits. Demons were unclean spirits and angels were clean. Meaning that clean spirit/idea came from Logos/Reason, while the unclean spirit came from the world distorted by matter and man.

thegospelisgoodnews · May 24, 2011

Ih8s8n said:
OpenDoor: Many. (honest answer) There are many who erroneously believe that once someone becomes a Christian, all demons that might have been in them automatically leave. Where do we find that in scripture? In fact, if that were so, then who would deliverance be for? Careful...think before you answer...

You won't find many churches that will accept that teaching, but I am in total agreement, If more Christians were delivered from the bondage of satan we would see a whole different church

Tim Myers · May 24, 2011

"Along with diseases, memes seems to be what is being described in the texts and what causes inappropriate behavior in people."

Remember, years ago, what passed for "doctors" back then told people that sickness was the result of whether they had a "good humor" or a "bad humor"??.....

thegospelisgoodnews · May 24, 2011

max1120 said:
Hmmm lets see do I believe in demons??? Nope...why? Well for starters I have never seen one. If there really is such a thing as "demonic possession" why have I never seen any levitating beds or people who can spin their heads around 360 degrees? Outside of hollywood, I have never seen a "demon" possessed person. For that matter I do know anyone who has "sold" his/her soul. It seems rather far fetched to say the least. I mean if I was going to sell my soul I would want top dollar and lots of added freebies...like say my own personal key and suite at the playboy mansion..lol Or maybe i would go for being supreme ruler of the universe??? Oh wait no I got it, maybe I would sell my soul for an unlimited number of wishes that would never run out...yeah thats the ticket!!!..LOL Do you get the point, it sounds silly. IF these sorts of things actually happen they would make newspaper headlines, like an alien invasion. Think about it, Anderson Cooper would be reporting live from the bedroom of the demonic possessed person showing how they can float and speak aramaic backwords. Can anyone seriously suggest these things are possible? How?

obviously this man has seen God face to face, otherwise why would he have an Angelican symbol

thegospelisgoodnews · May 24, 2011

Wow was really suprised at how many post were on this thread, Let me just say that I believe in evil spirits, demons, whatever you want to call them, as I personally witnessed them being removed by the hand of God, long story short, I had a supernatural experience with an angel, (much like the show "touched by an angel") I had a local gang gunning for me, and I was told they were planning to kill me.....the experience was overwhelming because it shattered my minds godless existance, and the true reality of God, angels and demons became the more real reality. needless to say I was shown all my sin, and while there are no words that can describe this phenomenon it was like looking up at black sky and all the stars were my sins, what is the hardest to articulate is I could acknowledge each and every sinful thing I had ever done, ALL AT THE SAME TIME, talk about a heavy weight, then after that I felt the love of God, and that He still loved me in spite of all I had done, If I would repent, and man! did I repent, here I was all alone in a junkyard and this angel was telling me and showing me all these things, while I was telling God how sorry I was for my sins, I could (again can't explain) a Hand reached inside my chest, (maybe inside my heart) and pulled these spirits out of me, and for the first time in my life they spoke in their own voices, they were frantically screaming all the things they had whispered into my ears over my lifetime, things they had spoke in MY INNER VOICE, mimicing me, making me believe these were my ideas and feelings. It was very scary and I remember thinking if this keeps going I'm going to lose my mind, after a while they were gone, and a joy and a peace I had never known had just filled my being, and I've never been the same since, needless to say I was miraculously relocated that day, over 2000 miles and I didn't have a dime to my name. God is forever praised

sunlover1 · May 24, 2011

Glory be to God!!!

Lion King · May 24, 2011

thegospelisoffensive said:
Wow was really suprised at how many post were on this thread, Let me just say that I believe in evil spirits, demons, whatever you want to call them, as I personally witnessed them being removed by the hand of God, long story short, I had a supernatural experience with an angel, (much like the show "touched by an angel") I had a local gang gunning for me, and I was told they were planning to kill me.....the experience was overwhelming because it shattered my minds godless existance, and the true reality of God, angels and demons became the more real reality. needless to say I was shown all my sin, and while there are no words that can describe this phenomenon it was like looking up at black sky and all the stars were my sins, what is the hardest to articulate is I could acknowledge each and every sinful thing I had ever done, ALL AT THE SAME TIME, talk about a heavy weight, then after that I felt the love of God, and that He still loved me in spite of all I had done, If I would repent, and man! did I repent, here I was all alone in a junkyard and this angel was telling me and showing me all these things, while I was telling God how sorry I was for my sins, I could (again can't explain) a Hand reached inside my chest, (maybe inside my heart) and pulled these spirits out of me, and for the first time in my life they spoke in their own voices, they were frantically screaming all the things they had whispered into my ears over my lifetime, things they had spoke in MY INNER VOICE, mimicing me, making me believe these were my ideas and feelings. It was very scary and I remember thinking if this keeps going I'm going to lose my mind, after a while they were gone, and a joy and a peace I had never known had just filled my being, and I've never been the same since, needless to say I was miraculously relocated that day, over 2000 miles and I didn't have a dime to my name. God is forever praised

What a wonderful testimony.

"But Jesus beheld them, and said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26

I know demons exist and if someone needs any evidence for their existence, one only has to look at the evil that goes on in this world. People who deny the existence of demons are usually the same people who also deny there is a place named hell, and go on how they believe "a loving God would never punish people in hell" false-doctrines.

Vendetta · May 24, 2011

sunlover1 said:
"[The devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44)

And whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." (Mark 3:11)

Unless Jesus is not the Son of God, the unclean spirits told the truth.

To say demons are incapable of telling the truth would make them far less effective. Demons are at their most potent when they can tell you enough truth to get you to believe their lies. For example, a demon tells a man struggling with sexuality, "Jesus didn't really condemn homosexuals in the Bible. It's alright to do it." In fact, the demon is being truthful in part. Jesus, the incarnate man, is not quoted in the Bible as saying that homosexuality is wrong. We know, in fact, that it is, and that the eternal Word spoke against it. But we see how the liars can keep a kernel of truth to make believable their lies.

ElijahW · May 24, 2011

Tim Myers said:
Remember, years ago, what passed for "doctors" back then told people that sickness was the result of whether they had a "good humor" or a "bad humor"??.....

The four humors are mostly about balancing fluids in the body. The demon tied into disease thinking comes from believing that right behavior leads to long life while incorrect behavior leads to death and disease. Like a demon/meme that encourages sloth or gluttony or adultery is going to lead to disease in a person given enough time.

Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!

Lion King · May 24, 2011

Vendetta said:
And whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." (Mark 3:11)

Demons believe in the the LORD and His name alone is enough to send shivers down a demon's spine. What more His presence?

Besides, the demons have already been judged by LORD.

You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:

“As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God." Romans 14:10-11

Unless Jesus is not the Son of God, the unclean spirits told the truth.

To say demons are incapable of telling the truth would make them far less effective. Demons are at their most potent when they can tell you enough truth to get you to believe their lies. For example, a demon tells a man struggling with sexuality, "Jesus didn't really condemn homosexuals in the Bible. It's alright to do it." In fact, the demon is being truthful in part. Jesus, the incarnate man, is not quoted in the Bible as saying that homosexuality is wrong. We know, in fact, that it is, and that the eternal Word spoke against it. But we see how the liars can keep a kernel of truth to make believable their lies.

Is that not the objective (to make them less effective)? ^_^

There is absolutely no truth in the devil, whatsoever.

"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

If that's how the Catholic exorcists operate, then they are playing with fire or have simply become arrogant thinking that the devil will reply truthfully to whatever they ask. Never believe anything that comes out of that serpent's mouth, in fact, don't even ask him anything...just operate a "shoot on sight, ask no questions" policy.

Some Christians don't believe in demons

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