Some Christians don't believe in demons

[OpenDoor]

OMGosh, I am so sorry. I evidently got off track here
and so will finish my thought

 

[sunlover1]

Peter was not yet filled with the Holy Spirit at that time, right?

Not sure but I think that we can be "influenced by" not just possessed with..
I have a friend that would always call me at THE bad time of the day.. and she
would drop in always in the middle of bath or shower or some very very
inopportune time.
The worst part of it was that she was sooo sensitve and would easily get
her "feelings hurt" and act all rejected and angry..
I often wondered if there was some spirit of rejection that had attached
itself to her "influencing her" to stop by or think of me at that "bad time".


But then I do not believe in coincedences.

We also have to be careful not to attribute things that are not, to demonic activity.

I know a couple who were getting married after a couple months of meeting.
Many folks tried to give them friendly "warning" that they might wait
and get to know each other a bit more.. but they insisted that was
"the devil"! (as if the devil cared if they got married and drank everynight together.. k then.
lol

 

[Ih8s8n]

What I always had a hard time understanding is if someone has the Holy Spirit living in them they are clean, become part of the body of Christ, and are God's temple. If a demon was in the person then they would be made unclean (right?)

OpenDoor: Why must someone automatically become totally clean by becoming indwelt by the Holy Spirit? There are many who teach/believe that the Holy Spirit and an unclean spirit cannot coinhabit an individual, but why is there such a teaching/belief? For example, we read:

"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold thou art there." (Psalm 139:7-8)

I don't know what your personal beliefs are in regards to God's omnipresence, but if you do believe in God's omnipresence and also hold to a belief that God and a demon can't coinhabit a place, then wouldn't demons not have to exist at all? In other words, if God is everywhere and demons can't coinhabit a place with Him, then they simply have no place to exist at all. Anyhow, there are places in scripture where we see demons/devils and God coinhabiting a place. One that immediately comes to mind is the following:

"Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee." (II Chronicles 18:18:22)

Here, we see a lying spirit being commissioned from the very throne room of God in heaven to go out and deceive Ahab (he had plenty of opportunities to repent prior to this incident) through the mouths of his false prophets. Since a lying spirit can stand before the very throne of God in heaven, what makes you think (IF this is your belief) that such a spirit couldn't indwell a believer? There are also accounts such as Satan appearing before God's throne in Job, Satan still standing as the accuser of the brethren in heaven in the book of Revelation, an evil spirit being sent from the Lord to torment King Saul, etc., etc., etc. Anyhow...

Regarding believers being "the temple of the Holy Ghost", have you never read:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are?" (I Corinthians 3:16-17)

?

How do you suppose that a Christian, the very "temple of god", might defile such a temple to the point that God would ultimately destroy him/her? Also, why do you suppose that Paul penned the following:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (II Corinthians 6:14-7:1)

?

After telling the Corinthians that they were "the temple of the living God", Paul instructed them to cleanse themselves of all filthiness of the flesh AND SPIRIT. What do you suppose that this means? Anyhow, some things for you to hopefully consider/ponder.

 

[Ih8s8n]

sunlover1: As I informed you privately the other day, for some still unknown reason, whenever I use my wife's laptop, I am unable to see the text part of your posts. Since I'm presently using my wife's computer as my daughter does some of her homeschooling on my desktop, I have no way of knowing what comments you are making at the present time. With such being the case, please forgive me if I repeat something that you may have already said or if I don't respond to any of your posts at this time. When my daughter is finished with my computer, then I'll log on from there and catch up on your actual comments. Sorry...

 

[sunlover1]

sunlover1: As I informed you privately the other day, for some still unknown reason, whenever I use my wife's laptop, I am unable to see the text part of your posts. Since I'm presently using my wife's computer as my daughter does some of her homeschooling on my desktop, I have no way of knowing what comments you are making at the present time. With such being the case, please forgive me if I repeat something that you may have already said or if I don't respond to any of your posts at this time. When my daughter is finished with my computer, then I'll log on from there and catch up on your actual comments. Sorry...

Should i answer?
Oh.. so then you cant see this right?

My posts are just some musings, yours are excellent and informative
and Scripture rich.. So dont you worry about little ole me.
Kinda eerie still that it's only MY posts that you can't see lol.
I'm writing this for you to see in the future!

 

[Thekla]

I'm sorry, I can't recall if it's in the Gospel of Matthew or Luke (watch it be Mark or John ) but in one passage, the Gospel writer says that Christ healed the demon possessed and the insane - clearly then, these were not thought to be the "same". (Actually, knowledge of mental illness predates the NT; the symptomatic descriptions are recognizable even today, and some of the diagnostic nomenclature and symptom clustering of ancient medicine are still in use in the 21st c.).

To summarize - the "modern" theory that demon possession = mental illness in the NT times is bunk. The NT demonstrates otherwise; I think this modern theory may be more in line with Medieval thought ? To also say, all illness entered the world through the Fall.

As for me, I do think demons exist and I also think mental illness exists.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm sorry, I can't recall if it's in the Gospel of Matthew or Luke (watch it be Mark or John ) but in one passage, the Gospel writer says that Christ healed the demon possessed and the insane - clearly then, these were not thought to be the "same". (Actually, knowledge of mental illness predates the NT; the symptomatic descriptions are recognizable even today, and some of the diagnostic nomenclature and symptom clustering of ancient medicine are still in use in the 21st c.).

To summarize - the "modern" theory that demon possession = mental illness in the NT times is bunk. The NT demonstrates otherwise; I think this modern theory may be more in line with Medieval thought ? To also say, all illness entered the world through the Fall.

Look at the greek words used . there is a variety .

 

[max1120]

Hmmm lets see do I believe in demons??? Nope...why? Well for starters I have never seen one. If there really is such a thing as "demonic possession" why have I never seen any levitating beds or people who can spin their heads around 360 degrees? Outside of hollywood, I have never seen a "demon" possessed person. For that matter I do know anyone who has "sold" his/her soul. It seems rather far fetched to say the least. I mean if I was going to sell my soul I would want top dollar and lots of added freebies...like say my own personal key and suite at the playboy mansion..lol Or maybe i would go for being supreme ruler of the universe??? Oh wait no I got it, maybe I would sell my soul for an unlimited number of wishes that would never run out...yeah thats the ticket!!!..LOL Do you get the point, it sounds silly. IF these sorts of things actually happen they would make newspaper headlines, like an alien invasion. Think about it, Anderson Cooper would be reporting live from the bedroom of the demonic possessed person showing how they can float and speak aramaic backwords. Can anyone seriously suggest these things are possible? How?

 

[sunlover1]

Have you seen God? Have you seen angels?

 

[Ih8s8n]

I'm sorry, I can't recall if it's in the Gospel of Matthew or Luke (watch it be Mark or John

) but in one passage, the Gospel writer says that Christ healed the demon possessed and the insane - clearly then, these were not thought to be the "same".

Thekla: I don't know if sunlover1 already cited the verse or not (I can't read her posts), but here is the verse that you're referring to:

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatic, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them." (Matthew 4:23-24)

 

[sunlover1]

Thekla: I don't know if sunlover1 already cited the verse or not (I can't read her posts), but here is the verse that you're referring to:

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatic, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them." (Matthew 4:23-24)

Great passage.
Lots to learn there.

 

[Thekla]

Thekla: I don't know if sunlover1 already cited the verse or not (I can't read her posts), but here is the verse that you're referring to:

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatic, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them." (Matthew 4:23-24)

That's exactly it !
Thank-you

 

[OpenDoor]

snip

Hey Ih8ss8n
This page does a good job at explaining (basically) my position.

Can a Christian be demon possessed? Can a Christian be demonized?

EDIT: this one is also good

http://carm.org/questions/about-demons/can-christians-be-demon-possessed

 

[Cuddles333]

Physical and mental demonic possession in the the 1st century was descibed as: a person dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. (Mark 5:3,4)

It is understood by Bible scholars that Satan was bound and his power reduced to only mental possession with the passing away of supernatural spiritual gifts. (1Corinthians 13) Still, it is troubling enough dealing with certain people afflicted with this. They are not mentally ill. The mentally ill are much easier to deal with. They are not morally ill. The mentally possessed do have a lot of each of these afflictions, but, have much more motivation than the people afflicted with these two maladies. Strange things occur when they are with you and you are working at something that never should have or would have, had they not been present.

 

[hedrick]

I've read some accounts that seem suggestive, e.g. Scott Peck's People of the Lie. However he says that real demons are very rare. That seems consistent with my impression of the way things work in the world.

There are a couple of different explanations of the NT accounts. One is that people described things we'd call mental illness as demon possession. That seems plausible. I guess people who believe in inerrancy could reject this, but it seems of a piece with the sun rising and other descriptions according to appearances. However if there are in fact demonic powers, which normally show very rarely, it's certainly possible to think that they would have concentrated around Jesus. The only problem with this is that there are events described in the Gospels that don't look like they are particularly aimed at Jesus, but are just garden variety conditions that he healed because of course healing is a sign of the Kingdom breaking in.

My tentative conclusion is that the demonic is real, that Jesus encountered it, but that not all of the people he healed were what we would call cases of demonic possession.

 

[Vendetta]

Hmmm lets see do I believe in demons??? Nope...why? Well for starters I have never seen one.

You haven't seen God, [presumably] angels, or a whole manner of supernatural things. Yet you believe in them. I see a contradiction.

If there really is such a thing as "demonic possession" why have I never seen any levitating beds or people who can spin their heads around 360 degrees? Outside of hollywood, I have never seen a "demon" possessed person.

Go hang out with occultists who practice magic, then. You will see. Or maybe you will not.

For that matter I do know anyone who has "sold" his/her soul. It seems rather far fetched to say the least.

Wait, don't you believe that God, Himself three persons in one being, came down to perform miracles and die for the sins of the world; on the third day he rose from the dead and secured salvation for humanity. And you say that after all this, the idea of somebody giving themselves willfully to a being who offers promises of power is "far-fetched"?

I mean if I was going to sell my soul I would want top dollar and lots of added freebies...like say my own personal key and suite at the playboy mansion..lol Or maybe i would go for being supreme ruler of the universe??? Oh wait no I got it, maybe I would sell my soul for an unlimited number of wishes that would never run out...yeah thats the ticket!!!..LOL

Wait for it...

Do you get the point, it sounds silly.

Something sounds silly, but it's not what you're mocking.

IF these sorts of things actually happen they would make newspaper headlines, like an alien invasion. Think about it, Anderson Cooper would be reporting live from the bedroom of the demonic possessed person showing how they can float and speak aramaic backwords. Can anyone seriously suggest these things are possible? How?

I want you to find me all the sources that speak of a man, Jesus by name, being put to death by the Roman Empire, and resurrecting on the third day. What's that? There's relatively few sources, outside of religious texts that proclaim this man as deity? Weird. And...what's this? You don't find headlines about the tilma in Mexico? But it's miraculously survived centuries and is unscathed, while much better preserved materials deteriorate, in the same place, within decades? Miracles are all around you; it is you who chooses not to believe them.

My father is a police officer. His second year on the job, he got a domestic disturbance call. He and three other officers ended up at this house, where a mom had to call the cops on her son. My father and another man were around 160-180 lbs. The other two officers were well over 220. This kid was probably 200-220 himself. The kid was speaking in a voice that was not human. All four officers struggled to restrain this kid when he became violent. They had to strap him to...I believe it was a table/gurney type of thing, so they could get him out. My father and the other Christian officer then saw the kid begin levitating. The two non-Christian officers say they saw nothing. The officers went into the kid's room. It was full of pentagrams and occult items. This tale would be suspect to me, but if there is one thing my father has always detested, it's liars. He has always told the blatant truth to a fault, and so I cannot disregard what he told me here.

Fr. Gabriele Amorth tells the tale of a priest that he (or his mentor, I forget which) invited to an exorcism. This priest did not believe in demons. The possessed person laughed at the priest and said, "You do not believe in us, but you believe in women. Oh, you believe in them." The priest then made a quick exit.

Demons exist, whether you believe it or not.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think i've learned quite enough from this thread . until next time folks . thanks again .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some Christians don't believe in demons

That is rather odd. As even the demons believe an shake with fear.

How come that word doesn't show up in the KJperV

Sorry! The word "demons" doesn't occur in the KJV.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7551244-27/#post57253007
Miracle of Fatima, counterfeit or Heaven sent?

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YNG
"demons"
occurs 48 times in 41 verses in the YNG

Last time used in Bible:

Young) Revelation 18:2 and he did cry in might--a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,

 

[Ih8s8n]

That's exactly it !

Thank-you

Thekla: You're welcome. However...I'm not sure that I agree with you, IF I'm understanding your position correctly. In other words, the distinction of which you speak in this passage from Matthew chapter 4 is a distinction between "those which were possessed with devils" and "those which were lunatic".

I'm sorry, I can't recall if it's in the Gospel of Matthew or Luke (watch it be Mark or John

) but in one passage, the Gospel writer says that Christ healed the demon possessed and the insane - clearly then, these were not thought to be the "same". (Actually, knowledge of mental illness predates the NT; the symptomatic descriptions are recognizable even today, and some of the diagnostic nomenclature and symptom clustering of ancient medicine are still in use in the 21st c.).

To summarize - the "modern" theory that demon possession = mental illness in the NT times is bunk. The NT demonstrates otherwise; I think this modern theory may be more in line with Medieval thought ? To also say, all illness entered the world through the Fall.

As for me, I do think demons exist and I also think mental illness exists.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure if there really is a distinction, for later on, we read:

"And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: FOR HE IS A LUNATIC, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. AND JESUS REBUKED THE DEVIL; AND HE DEPARTED OUT OF HIM: and the child was cured from that very hour." (Matthew 17:14-18)

Here, when dealing with a lunatic, Jesus still cast the devil out of him. Anyhow, like I said, I'm not sure that I'm even understanding your position correctly, but I really don't see a difference between the two in the Biblical record.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think i've learned quite enough from this thread . until next time folks . thanks again .

What is it you learned