IN the descendants since.. on the face of the earth today.. who are Esau's family line?
Who is Esau?
- Thread starter visionary
- Start date
yonah_mishael
הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם
- Jun 14, 2009
- 5,370
- 1,325
- Faith
- Judaism
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Upvote
0
- Jan 25, 2009
- 19,765
- 1,428
- Faith
- Oriental Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Others
From where I stand, I don't know where the Edomites are today location wise...in the full sense. To me, its interesting that modern Jordan is comprised of the ancient countries of Edom, Moab and Ammon. Again, the land of Edom lay in present-day southern Jordan, bounded on the north by Wadi Hasa (biblical Nahal Zered) at the southern end of the Dead Sea, and extending south to the Gulf of Eilat. In the Bible, Edom is closely linked to the region known as Seir, where Esau, the commonly accepted father of the Edomites, dwelt (Genesis 36:8-9; Deuteronomy 2:4-5, 22, 29).
One source I'm aware of shared the following:
The following four witnesses, all of them Jewish, testify to the Edomites' new identity:
It was the progeny of these same "Jews" who, by way of interbreeding, became part of the Khazar kingdom, and who, between the seventh and ninth centuries AD, adopted the religion of Judaism. According to the previously cited Jewish encyclopedias, it was these Khazar Jews who were the progenitors of the vast majority of today's Jewish people, including today's Zionist Jews who spuriously claim right to the land of Israel, including that which was previously owned and controlled by the Palestinian Arabs. Consequently, the majority of today's Jewish people are known as "Jews" not because they are descended from Jacob/Israel but rather because their Edomite/Khazar progenitors adopted the religion of Judaism. The authors of The Jewish Almanac (1980) obviously recognized that today's Jews are rarely genetic Israelites. The first chapter is entitled "IDENTITY CRISIS." The first sentence succinctly admits to this anthropological fact:
This fact is confirmed by several other Jewish sources such as The Jewish Encyclopedia (1905), The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1941), the Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (1977), as well as individual Jewish authors such as Nathan M. Pollock, Professor of Medieval Jewish History of Tel Aviv, Bernard Lazare, Robert Quillan, Dr. Benjamin Freedman, Arthur Koestler, James Yaffe, Paul Meyer and many more.
…in the days of John Hyrcanus (end of the second century B.C.E.) … the [non-Israelite] Edomites became a section of the Jewish people. "EDOM," Encyclopaedia Judaica (Jerusalem, Israel: Encyclopaedia Judaica Company, 1971) Vol. 6, p. 378
They [the non-Israelite Edomites] were then incorporated with the Jewish nation…. "EDOM, IDUMEA," The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York & London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1904) Vol. V, p. 41
…from then on they [the non-Israelite Edomites] constituted a part of the Jewish people, Herod [King of Judea] being one of their descendants. "EDOM (Idumea)," The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1977) p. 589
…they [the Edomites] were hereafter no other than [non-Israelite] Jews. Flavius Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews (Grand Rapids, MI: Dregel Publications, 1960) Book XIII, Chapter IX, Verse 1, p. 279
They [the non-Israelite Edomites] were then incorporated with the Jewish nation…. "EDOM, IDUMEA," The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York & London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1904) Vol. V, p. 41
…from then on they [the non-Israelite Edomites] constituted a part of the Jewish people, Herod [King of Judea] being one of their descendants. "EDOM (Idumea)," The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1977) p. 589
…they [the Edomites] were hereafter no other than [non-Israelite] Jews. Flavius Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews (Grand Rapids, MI: Dregel Publications, 1960) Book XIII, Chapter IX, Verse 1, p. 279
It was the progeny of these same "Jews" who, by way of interbreeding, became part of the Khazar kingdom, and who, between the seventh and ninth centuries AD, adopted the religion of Judaism. According to the previously cited Jewish encyclopedias, it was these Khazar Jews who were the progenitors of the vast majority of today's Jewish people, including today's Zionist Jews who spuriously claim right to the land of Israel, including that which was previously owned and controlled by the Palestinian Arabs. Consequently, the majority of today's Jewish people are known as "Jews" not because they are descended from Jacob/Israel but rather because their Edomite/Khazar progenitors adopted the religion of Judaism. The authors of The Jewish Almanac (1980) obviously recognized that today's Jews are rarely genetic Israelites. The first chapter is entitled "IDENTITY CRISIS." The first sentence succinctly admits to this anthropological fact:
Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an "Israelite" or a "Hebrew." "IDENTITY CRISIS," The Jewish Almanac , compiled and edited by Richard Siegel and Carl Rheins (New York, NY: Bantam Books, 1980) p. 3
This fact is confirmed by several other Jewish sources such as The Jewish Encyclopedia (1905), The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1941), the Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (1977), as well as individual Jewish authors such as Nathan M. Pollock, Professor of Medieval Jewish History of Tel Aviv, Bernard Lazare, Robert Quillan, Dr. Benjamin Freedman, Arthur Koestler, James Yaffe, Paul Meyer and many more.
I know many often wonder who the Edomites were due to feeling as if they fit into a certain End Times view of enemies being raised against the Hebrews. However, I'm not 100% certain that the Edomites were necessarily the true enemy of Israel, in light of their history.
For they too are "Blood Brothers" with Israel just as Issac was a Blood Brother with Ishmael. They may have been more aggressive than those of Ishmael's line, of course. Some of this I've been realizing more and more after studying the Book of Genesis and seeing the line of Easu in action. For Issac's attempt to bless Esau in Genesis 27:1-45 was subverted by Rebekah, who favored Jacob and helped him recieve the blessing of the firstborn.....though that event only builds on the earlier incident where Esau sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:29-34) alongside confirming the earlier incident where the divine statement was made in Genesis 25:23 that the older will serve the younger. The blessing Issac gave to Easu in Genesis 27:39-40 may seem like a curse at first glance...but in many ways, it seems to be a blessing that is meant to be like a "counter-measure" toward his brother. It was much like a Consolation prize of sorts (i.e. an award given to those who do not win an event but are deserving of recognition). For although Jacob was given authority over his older twin brother, Isaac indicates/pronounces that Esau will eventually free himself from his brother's control....and later, Esau's descendants settle outside the Promised Land, to the east of the Jordan River, eventually taking control of Seir, which is later named "Edom"..as seen in Genesis 36:1-42 (I Chronicles 1:51-54), with the geneology of Easu. His sons and grandsons produced 14 chiefs, and a number of kings emerged from among Esau's descendants
As seen in Deuteronomy 2:1-1-8, the nation of Edom--descended from Esau (Genesis 25:30, Genesis 32:3, Genesis 36:1)---were people whom the Lord warned Israel not to provoke due to the blood relationships through Esau. Numbers 20:14-21 also gives more in-depth information....concerning how the the Edomite/Israelite relations often were one of tension, if not bitter hostility, as seen in how the Edomites denied passage through their land to Israel. At that time, apparently, they were afaid that the Israelities--known to be a great horde of people--would either attack them or devour their crops (Deuteronomy 2:4-5) and thus they did not trust Israel's word.
Nothing further is recorded of the Edomites in the Tanakh until their defeat by King Saul of Israel in the late 11th century BC ( 1 Samuel 14:46-48 ). 1 Samuel 21:6-8 mentions Doeg the Edomite , later seen in I Samuel 22:9-22....the man who betrayed David and killed the priests of Nob and committed an act that Saul's Israelite servants refused to do. David later spoke sharply against it in Psalm 52 when condeming Doeg for thinking of himself as a great hero in the deed he committed.
Forty years later King David and his general Joab defeated the Edomites in the "valley of salt", (probably near the Dead Sea) in 2 Samuel 8:12-14 and I Chronicles 18:12. It was at that time that an Edomite prince named Hadad escaped and fled to Egypt, and after David's death returned and tried to start a rebellion (I Kings 11:14-22), but failed and went to Syria. From that time Edom remained a vassal of Israel. David placed over the Edomites Israelite governors or prefects, and this form of government seems to have continued under Solomon. When Israel divided into two kingdoms Edom became a dependency of the Kingdom of Judah. I Kings 22:47 is a great place to go for further information on the issue. In the time of Jehoshaphat (c. 914 BC) the Tanakh mentions a king of Edom ( II Kings 3:7-9 ), who was probably an Israelite appointed by the King of Judah. It also states that the inhabitants of Mount Seir invaded Judea in conjunction with Ammon and Moab, and that the invaders turned against one another and were all destroyed. Edom revolted against Jehoram and elected a king of its own. Amaziah attacked and defeated the Edomites, seizing Selah, but the Israelites never subdued Edom completely. 2 Kings 8:20-22 and 2 Kings 16:5-7 is also a place where one can go for further information. As it turns out, the Edomites aided the enemies of Israel in conquering them in the time they were in rebellion ( 2 Chronicles 28:16-18 , Psalm 137:6-8 )---and the prophets spoke out against Edom ( Isaiah 21:10-12, Isaiah 34:8-10 , Jeremiah 49:16-18 , Ezekiel 25:11-13 , Ezekiel 35:14-15, Ezekiel 36:4-6 , Joel 3:18-20, Amos 1:10-12, Amos 2:1-3, Obadiah 1:7-9, Malachi 1:1-5 )
On what has often been noted with the Edomites being enemies of God, something I wanted to mention is how the Blood Ties between Esau and Jacob/Israel can be seen in a myriad of ways that are quite stunning. For in the time of the Exodus the Israelites had some peoples from other nations amongst them. They were a mixed multitude--and it seems that Caleb, though listed as coming from Judah, was most likely adopted into Judah. This is said in light of how he was from Kenez from Edom. Again, for reference, the scriptures concerning Caleb being from Judah and a Kenezite:
Numbers 13:6 Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
Numbers 32:12 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
Joshua 14:6 Then the children of Judah came unto Joshua in Gilgal: and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite said unto him, Thou knowest the thing that the LORD said unto Moses the man of God concerning me and thee in Kadeshbarnea.
Joshua 14:14 Hebron therefore became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite unto this day, because that he wholly followed the LORD God of Israel.
As said earlier, concerning Genesis 36:1-42 (I Chronicles 1:51-54), with the geneology of Easu, His sons and grandsons produced 14 chiefs, and a number of kings emerged from among Esau's descendants. And among them there was an Edomite named Kenaz..as seen clearly in the geneology of Esau in Genesis 36:11
Genesis 36:11 And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz.
Genesis 36:15 These [were] dukes of the sons of Esau: the sons of Eliphaz the firstborn [son] of Esau; duke Teman, duke Omar, duke Zepho, duke Kenaz,
Genesis 36:42 Duke Kenaz, duke Teman, duke Mibzar,
1 Chr. 1:36 is another place to go for reference. But from the text, it seems that Kenaz was one of the sons of Eliphaz, the son of Esau. He became the chief of an Edomitish tribe (Gen. 36:11, 15, 42) and was a duke of Edom ( Gen. 36:42; 1 Chr. 1:53). From what the text seems to say, Kenaz was also the brother of Caleb ( Josh. 15:17; Judg. 1:13; 3:9, 11; 1 Chr. 4:13, Joshua 15:17, Judges 1:13, Judges 3:7-11). Specifically, he was Caleb's younger brother, and father of Othniel (Josh. 15:17), whose family was of importance in Israel down to the time of David (1 Chr. 27:15). There are some, of course, who think that Othniel (Judg. 1:13), and not Kenaz, was Caleb's brother. But that's another issue...
It seems reasonable to say that Caleb the Kenizzite was a member of the mixed multitude who was adopted into the tribe of Judah. I Chronicles 4:13 seems to speak more on this, in regards to the Kenizzites and how they appear to have been a southern tribe that was absorbed into Judah..and Caleb with Joshua was the only faithful man among the spies Moses sent to investigate Canaan. And Bezaleel---the principal craftsman for the tabernacle (Exodus 31:2, II Chronicles 1:5)---- was from Caleb according to 1 Chronicles 2:20.
But Caleb was probably an Edomite, due to his ancestry (Genesis 36:11). That may seem surprising to consider that, but there has already been precedent of God using others from other nations to aid Israel---such as with the Moabites (Deuteronomy 23:3-8 Numbers 22-25, Ezra 9:2-12, Ezra 10:44, Nehemiah 13:25, etc), descended from incest between Lot/His daughters ( Genesis 19:30-37 ) ---something scripture forbid in other parts of scripture (Leviticus 18:6-18, Leviticus 20:11, Leviticus 20:12-17, Leviticus 18:19-21, Deuteronomy 22:30, Deuteronomy 27:20-23, Ezekiel 22:11, I Corinthians 5:1). Moab and Benammi became the fathers of two of Israel's greatest enemies, the Moabites and the Ammonites....as these nations settled east of the Jordan River and Israel never conquered them. But Ruth hailed from that nation later became the great-grandmother of David, also being included in the Messianic Line (Ruth 1-4, Matthew 1:4-6)....and with God Himself making clear in Deuteronomy 2:8-11 and Deuteronomy 2:16-19 that he did not desire Israel to fight Moab/Ammon since God had given the land to Edom, Moab, and Ammon and forbid Israel to attempt taking that land, presumably because of the blood relationships between Esau and Lot.
All of this is said, again, in light of how the Edomites were Semites, closely related in blood and in language to the Israelites. They dispossessed the Horites of Mount Seir; though it is clear, from Gen. 36, that they afterwards intermarried with the conquered population. Edomite tribes settled also in the south of Judah, like the Kenizzites (Gen. 36:11), to whom Caleb and Othniel belonged (Josh. 15:17). The southern part of Edom was known as Teman.
All of that is said to further illustrate the reality of how much God loved/desired to use GENTILES to bless His people the Jews.....and within that, the Lord has often shown His heart in using those from camps that others would deem as "enemies"---yet the Lord is able to turn them into friends for His glory.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jan 25, 2009
- 19,765
- 1,428
- Faith
- Oriental Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Others
Easy G (G²);57413209 said:
For more, As John Mark Ministries said best in their article entitled "Give Me This Mountain" :
Caleb is a living example of the old adage If you cant beat em join em. Apparently the Israelites picked up various groups and clans as they journeyed towards their Promised Land one of these was Calebs. He was a Kenizzite, an Edomite, which means he was a descendent of Esau rather than Jacob, and he and his clan got assimilated into the tribe of Judah.
Despite his adverse pedigree Caleb, because of his outstanding leadership gifts, rose to a position of some prominence among the tribes of Israel. He refused to be a prisoner of his scripting.
..............
Caleb was smart: let us creatively take hold of the opportunities lying all
around us.
HE DID HIS RESEARCH. According to Deuteronomy 1:22, Moses was urging the people to go into the Promised Land and conquer it, claim it. God had told them over and over that hed be with them, and the land was good (Exodus 3:8). But they did what many groups do who dont want to do anything they set up a committee to investigate: lets send twelve spies into the land to search out the best route. Numbers 13 & 14 tell the story The person chosen remarkably enough to represent the important tribe of Judah was this Gentile Caleb. Joshua and Caleb and ten others explored a land flowing with milk and honey. They brought back a bunch of grapes so huge it took two men to carry it. In the desert theyd probably never seen grapes. In their wildest imagination they hadnt conceived of grapes like these. But there were two problems giants, and the walled cities they lived in. So the committee was divided ten to two. Ten of the spies measured the giants against themselves: we cant do it, they said, they are stronger than we are. Were like grasshoppers compared to them. The spies went to Hebron, the very place where Abraham received the promise of the land of Canaan (Genesis 13:18). But all the promises of God to their great forefather, the power that God has displayed so many miraculous times, were all forgotten as they saw those high walls and those giants.
Two one of them Caleb measured the giants against God. To a great God
those giants were very puny. Caleb was prepared to do what leaders are
supposed to do lead.
Despite his adverse pedigree Caleb, because of his outstanding leadership gifts, rose to a position of some prominence among the tribes of Israel. He refused to be a prisoner of his scripting.
..............
Caleb was smart: let us creatively take hold of the opportunities lying all
around us.
HE DID HIS RESEARCH. According to Deuteronomy 1:22, Moses was urging the people to go into the Promised Land and conquer it, claim it. God had told them over and over that hed be with them, and the land was good (Exodus 3:8). But they did what many groups do who dont want to do anything they set up a committee to investigate: lets send twelve spies into the land to search out the best route. Numbers 13 & 14 tell the story The person chosen remarkably enough to represent the important tribe of Judah was this Gentile Caleb. Joshua and Caleb and ten others explored a land flowing with milk and honey. They brought back a bunch of grapes so huge it took two men to carry it. In the desert theyd probably never seen grapes. In their wildest imagination they hadnt conceived of grapes like these. But there were two problems giants, and the walled cities they lived in. So the committee was divided ten to two. Ten of the spies measured the giants against themselves: we cant do it, they said, they are stronger than we are. Were like grasshoppers compared to them. The spies went to Hebron, the very place where Abraham received the promise of the land of Canaan (Genesis 13:18). But all the promises of God to their great forefather, the power that God has displayed so many miraculous times, were all forgotten as they saw those high walls and those giants.
Two one of them Caleb measured the giants against God. To a great God
those giants were very puny. Caleb was prepared to do what leaders are
supposed to do lead.
Upvote
0
Genesis 27:40-42 (New International Version, ©2011)
40 You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck.”
41 Esau held a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing his father had given him. He said to himself, “The days of mourning for my father are near; then I will kill my brother Jacob.”
I was wondering about the blessings 'serve your brother' whether it had any prophectic implications.
40 You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck.”
41 Esau held a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing his father had given him. He said to himself, “The days of mourning for my father are near; then I will kill my brother Jacob.”
I was wondering about the blessings 'serve your brother' whether it had any prophectic implications.
Upvote
0
Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Some believe Esau's decendants are the Palestinians of the day.
It says as we were coming out of Egypt that one of Esau's decendants lay in wait for us and we would in every generation have to fight him. His name was Amelek.
Saul let his descendant escape and all Jews were almost wiped off the face of the earth (by Haman).
There is still ones that try to do so today.
It says as we were coming out of Egypt that one of Esau's decendants lay in wait for us and we would in every generation have to fight him. His name was Amelek.
Saul let his descendant escape and all Jews were almost wiped off the face of the earth (by Haman).
There is still ones that try to do so today.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
