Icons, candles, incense and images. Creating an atomosphere? for what?

While searching around for something else, I found this very interesting and well-explained article on icons from a non EO or RCC. Here it is.

After a Protestant enters an Orthodox church, he will see immediately in front of him, people lighting candles and kissing icons, which are paintings of Jesus, the saints, and of holy events. This may be the first real shock for him. Protestants have been trained to abhor any use of religious images and any connections with them, except for crosses, stained-glass windows, and a few other icon-like depictions. Watching Orthodox people kissing icons is to a Protestant no different than worshipping statues or pagan deities. But the practice of kissing icons goes back to apostolic times, in the catacombs of Rome, where the bodies of dead Christians were entombed with paintings of their faces or of events of their lives depicted on the corpses or walls near them. The first Christians would kiss these paintings and pray for them and ask them to pray for the Christians on earth. Paintings and inscriptions of these practices can still be seen on catacomb walls today. Furthermore, kissing was a normal function of everyday life, as a sign of friendship, much like shaking hands in modern times. But to an early Christian it was also a sign of union with other Christians in the Body of Christ. But most importantly, the early Christians did not believe in a division between Heaven and earth. They believed that the dead saints were still alive, as Jesus teaches in the Gospels, that God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The first Christians considered heavenly beings to be members of the same Body of Christ, that the Church consisted of living and dead Christians, not as though death was a separation, but that both the saints on earth and the saints in Heaven were not divided; they were all alive in Christ. </IMG src>Therefore, kissing icons was treated as a symbolic act of preserving a literal communion between Heaven and earth in the Body of Christ. It was a way to impress on the minds and souls of all true Christians that in Jesus Christ, there is no death and no separation between the saints in Heaven and Christians on earth. This is why there was never a problem with praying to the saints and asking them to pray to God for Christians on earth. Just as Christians on earth pray for each other, so was it accepted without question to ask the saints in Heaven to pray to God for the saints on earth. Indeed, since apostolic times it was never an issue to kiss icons and commune with the saints in Heaven. It only became an issue after the Muslims in the 7th century conquered major regions of Christianity. Islam abhors any use of images in worship, and because Islam demands the persecution of non-Muslims under their domination, many Christians felt pressured to compromise the Faith a little bit by rejecting the use of icons in order to appease the Muslims or because of actual belief in this new doctrine. But the apostolic practice of icons prevailed.

First Introduction to Eastern Orthodoxy

Dr.Strangelove said:

PLEASE! Can you go to this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525612/

And give us an easy to understand, simple laymans list of all the rituals that the RCC performs in the liturgy.

Thanks. Most grateful. Lets examine the rituals. No-one seems to wanna talk about them.

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Several times the Liturgy has been explained, and you've been given links to fuller explanations of the Liturgy and to the Liturgy itself. Each time you say it's too complicated or some other complaint. You should stick with milk if you're not ready for meat.

Dr.Strangelove said:

Do you actually have anything to add to this debate other than not so veiled threats?

If so you'll have to get in line behind the charismatics, they are wielding the unpardonable sin at me at the moment.

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Kepha said:

She said she doesnt hang on to every word, not every Dogma.

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wake me up when you get your story straight.

PilgrimToChrist said:

Really now?

How many of the Early Church Fathers have you read? They believed the same things as we do now. Their worship was very similar to what ours is like now. Their Church structure of bishops, presbyters and deacons was like ours now. What exactly is different?

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Those ECF you refer to are the very same apostate leaders that lead so many into mixing christianity and paganism.

When you mix your water with arsenic it's still poison.

Thekla said:

The Federal Reserve, the Illuminati, the Masons, and now the German SS have all been around for millenia according to you ... what history books have you been reading. They seem to have serious accuracy problems :o

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simonthezealot said:

Today we do not offer literal incense to God but instead offer prayers.
How do you guys NOT understand that? This understanding is all over the early Christians writings.

John Chrysostom explains: "You must worship 'in truth'; as former things were types, such as circumcision, and whole burnt offerings, and victims, and incense, they now no longer exist, but all is 'truth.'" (John Chrysostom, Homily 33 on the Gospel of John, at John 4:24)

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Well, since it's St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy that is used throughout the Orthodox church almost every day, then somehow I don't think he means what you think he means.

Mary

LittleLambofJesus said:

You mean outside of the OT and NT of the Bible?
I found this interesting concerning Judaism and the use of incense after the prophecied destruction of their Temple and Sanctuary [which I view as that event shown in Revelation]

The Jews are actually trying to make it for use in a future rebuilt Temple for when their own Messiah comes in the future

Judaism

Main article: Ketoret
The ketoret is the incense described in the Bible for use in the Temple. Its composition is described in greater detail in the Talmud.
Although it was not produced following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Orthodox Judaism studies the composition of the ancient Temple incense for future use in a restored Temple as part of daily Jewish services.

Luke 19:44 and they shall be leveling Thee and the offspring of Thee in Thee.
And not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee stead which not thou knew the time of the visitation of Thee.

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

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And? Why should we care what Rabbincal Judaism believes and does? They are a false religion.

The true religion, on the other hand, does not derive their practices from false religions. We derive our practices from Temple Judaism because the Church is the New Israel. Rabbinal, post-Temple, Judaism is a distinct religion developed after God abandoned the Temple and allowed it to be destroyed forever.

Of course, I still occasionally hear Evangelicals and Fundamentalists supporting the Nation-State of Israel and Rabbinical Judaism as though they were a parallel religion to Christianity. They also are trying to blasphemously rebuild a new Temple because it is supposed to usher in the Apocalypse (it will certainly bring Judgment -- upon them...)

Modern Jews do their own thing, they are not Christians, they are not the precursor to Christianity. Modern Judaism has very little to do with Temple Judaism.

Therefore, we adopt the practices of Temple Judaism into Christian worship, as the Apostles and the Early Church did.

Thekla said:

Jesus Christ was ... :o dedicated at the Temple !!

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Yes, we've been over that. Do you understand the difference between prayer and dedication? Her comment was He prayed and prayed in the Holy Place. Not so.

Philothei said:

When his parents found him in the Temple of Jerusalem he was preaching....you think he would rebuke them for foggin up the temple with smoke .... Guess what there is no account he did...he just kept on sermonizing

Luke 2:41-52

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Ok. You folks want to move the goal posts.

Point is Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, not Levi. He wouldn't have even been allowed past the court.

My question is given that fact, how does this change your assumption that EO continues the Levitical priesthood? IOW, Jesus was not of Levi. Does this understanding impact your thinking at all?

Thekla said:

Jesus Christ was ... :o dedicated at the Temple !!

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ya......because in order to have THE TRUE SAINTS (we who are saved by Grace through faith) declared RIGHTEOUS (imputed), He FULFILLED ALL THE LAW (Mosaic Covenant) on our behalf.

JESUS CHRIST WAS THE TEMPLE.
HE HAD JERUSALEM MADE DESOLATE.

John the Baptist (who prolly would like his head laid to rest in the ground at this point) called the jews AWAY from The Temple, BACK into the "wilderness" to repent of all that stuff - CHRIST HAD COME.

so why do you rebuild what He tore down?

I quoted him in full context on another post. It says what it says.

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Your right it does. You have yet to show that this quote implies that there is an absolute prohibition on the very use of incense though. Other factors make this very improbable . Factors like the use of incense in the Church he preached at as Patriarch. The use of incense in the very Liturgy he preformed . The use of incense in the later Liturgy that bears his name. The use of incense throughout the whole Byzantine Church for that matter. St Chrysostom was a very outspoken person and if he had a problem with that practice he would have said " do not use incense for this is superstitious ". In fact as Patriarch he would have had the power to bring a full scale campaign against the practice if it really bothered him.

RibI said:

Those ECF you refer to are the very same apostate leaders that lead so many into mixing christianity and paganism.

When you mix your water with arsenic it's still poison.

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Those same ECF's who put the Bible together for you to study and read? If they are apostates and believe in pagan things, why do you trust the Bible they put together for you?

Kepha said:

The thing I love about these supposed protestant rebuttals are the fact that 'true seekers' lurking about here can see exactly how it works now. How your best arguments based on assumptions, heart readings and feelings, are entirely built on sand. Makes them want to diligently seek even more while further separating themselves from your typical protestant prejudice based on fallacy wishing to urge them on.

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Indeed Kepha.

Christos Anesti said:

Thats true of most any design you can think of be it a square, triangle, eye, stick figure person, a cross, a wheel, etc... has been used for thousands of years and thus predate Christianity or even Judaism. So ?

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Yes, exactly, CA. These symbols, etc. were used by pagans and whomever else out there waaaayyy back. Does that mean they have ownership on them? That because they used them, it's trademarked? Nobody owns the trees, the cross, triangle, etc. God created all.

Philothei said:

When his parents found him in the Temple of Jerusalem he was preaching....you think he would rebuke them for foggin up the temple with smoke .... Guess what there is no account he did...he just kept on sermonizing

Luke 2:41-52

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LOL!
what was He preaching?

Luke 20
The Authority of Jesus Challenged
1One day, as Jesusa was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up 2and said to him, “Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority.” 3He answered them, “I also will ask you a question. Now tell me, 4was the baptism of John from heaven or from man?” 5And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why did you not believe him?’ 6But if we say, ‘From man,’ all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet.” 7So they answered that they did not know where it came from. 8And Jesus said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”

John 2:19
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

John 4
21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

Matthew 24
But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

child of Jesus said:

what's the eye of horus in the triangle doing in this EO throne thing? huh?
ACCIDENTAL?

​

do the Two Sisters Rome and EO think we're stupid?

btw: who sits in that throne? A MAN? for what?

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Stupid? Not at all. Ignorant and a bit judgmental of our hearts would be what we see here. Your last question confirms your ignorance. You are speaking insults and offense to something you know nothing about. This is not good. The "MAN" on the throne is Christ.