why ash?

visionary

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Why would Abraham think of himself as nothing but ash. I can relate to his considering himself as dust because that is what we are made of and come from.. but the ash is another story...

Genesis 18:27
Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes,

In the sacrificial system... there were special bronze pots [bronze symbolized sin] for the removal of the sacrifices that were burned to ash..

Exodus 27:3
Make all its utensils of bronze—its pots to remove the ashes, and its shovels, sprinkling bowls, meat forks and firepans.

There were other sanctuary utensils which were made from silver that were used in the inner sanctuary of the holy place.. those utensils made of bronze were only used in the outer area only where the sacrifices were performed..

Leviticus 1:16
He is to remove the crop and the feathers and throw them down east of the altar where the ashes are.

Leviticus 6:10
The priest shall then put on his linen clothes, with linen undergarments next to his body, and shall remove the ashes of the burnt offering that the fire has consumed on the altar and place them beside the altar. 11 Then he is to take off these clothes and put on others, and carry the ashes outside the camp to a place that is ceremonially clean.

Leviticus 4:12
that is, all the rest of the bull—he must take outside the camp to a place ceremonially clean, where the ashes are thrown, and burn it there in a wood fire on the ash heap.

One of my fascinations with this subject is because of the red heifer...

Numbers 19:9
“A man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They are to be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin.

Numbers 19:17
“For the unclean person, put some ashes from the burned purification offering into a jar and pour fresh water over them.

Did Abraham make some connection that we do not fully understand on the importance of the ashes? and what they symbolize that he did make a connection with?
 

visionary

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Ok.. how about this little tantilizing prophecy?


1 Kings 13:3
That same day the man of God gave a sign: “This is the sign the LORD has declared: The altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out.”
 
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yonah_mishael

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I don't think he was referring to any of those things, visionary. To me, he was saying that when he was before God he was like nothing, like a person who didn't even have existence. He was like dust, which just gets picked up and carried away by the wind. Or ash, which has no substance and blows away with a slight breeze. The two are combined to say that he felt he could be blown away and simply cease to exist just by standing in the presence of God. In other words, he had no value.
 
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hogndog

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ASHES

ash'-iz: Among the ancient Hebrews #and other Orientals, to sprinkle with or sit in ashes was a mark or token of grief, humiliation, or penitence. Ashes on the head was one of the ordinary signs of mourning for the dead, as when "Tamar put ashes on her head .... and went on crying"

(2 Sam 13:19 the King James Version), and of national humiliation, as when the children of Israel were assembled under Nehemiah "with fasting, and with sackcloth, and earth (ashes) upon them" (Neh 9:1), and when the people of Nineveh repented in sackcloth and ashes at the preaching of Jonah (Jon 3:5,6; compare 1 Macc 3:47). The afflicted or penitent often sat in ashes (compare Job 2:8; 42:6: "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"), or even wallowed in ashes, as Jeremiah exhorted sinning Israel to do: "O daughter of my people .... wallow thyself in ashes"

(Jer 6:26), or as Ezekiel in his lamentation for Tyre pictures her mariners as doing, crying bitterly and `casting up dust upon their heads' and `wallowing themselves in the ashes' (in their weeping for her whose head was lifted up and become corrupted because of her beauty), "in bitterness of soul with bitter mourning" (Ezek 27:30,31).
However, these and various other modes of expressing grief, repentance, and humiliation among the Hebrews, such as rending the garments, tearing the hair and the like, were not of Divine appointment, but were simply the natural outbursts of the impassioned oriental temperament, and are still customary among eastern peoples.

Figurative: The term "ashes" is often used to signify worthlessness, insignificance or evanescence (Gen 18:27; Job 30:19). "Proverbs of ashes," for instance, in Job 13:12, is Job's equivalent, says one writer, for our modern "rot." For the ritual use of the ashes of the Red Heifer by the priests, see RED HEIFER.

George B. Eager
Bibliography Information
Orr, James, M.A., D.D. General Editor. "Definition for 'ASHES'". "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia". bible-history.com - ISBE; 1915.

Copyright Information
© International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE)
 
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yonah_mishael

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Figurative: The term "ashes" is often used to signify worthlessness, insignificance or evanescence (Gen 18:27; Job 30:19). "Proverbs of ashes," for instance, in Job 13:12, is Job's equivalent, says one writer, for our modern "rot."

Yes. This is what Abraham was saying -- that he had no worth before God. Ashes are "worthless" because they had no weight. Value was often determined by weight, as even the word shekel שֶׁקֶל is derived from the word "to weigh" (lishkol לִשְׁקוֹל).
 
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Heber

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I don't think he was referring to any of those things, visionary. To me, he was saying that when he was before God he was like nothing, like a person who didn't even have existence. He was like dust, which just gets picked up and carried away by the wind. Or ash, which has no substance and blows away with a slight breeze. The two are combined to say that he felt he could be blown away and simply cease to exist just by standing in the presence of God. In other words, he had no value.


Crikey! We fought the Aussies at cricket to get something of no value! :D
 
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visionary

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I don't think he was referring to any of those things, visionary. To me, he was saying that when he was before God he was like nothing, like a person who didn't even have existence. He was like dust, which just gets picked up and carried away by the wind. Or ash, which has no substance and blows away with a slight breeze. The two are combined to say that he felt he could be blown away and simply cease to exist just by standing in the presence of God. In other words, he had no value.
I can see what you are saying..:thumbsup: As Job sees it...

19.Job 30:19
He throws me into the mud, and I am reduced to dust and ashes.

20.Job 42:6
Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”


In His Presence we can be reduced to ashes. and are but dust,... it is more than just a emotional comparative state in which we see our unworthiness to even be in His Presence.. it is also a reality if God so chooses..:bow:
 
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Lulav

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When you are repeatedly bargaining with the L-RD for favor, you need to be in complete humility, as Abraham was at this time. He didn't just ask once but six times! He needed to be as humble as possible not for himself but for his family he was trying to protect, that of his brothers sons, Lot.
 
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Desert Rose

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And where did they find "sackcloth and ash"? I don't have a ready supply of it, and it might be hard for me to find it where I'm at.

by where I am at - not a problem, i am sure.
with a help of a cigarette lighter, trash bin by the office printer and 5 minutes, the crew that perpetually hangs by water cooler can apply themselves to something productive for a change.


Vis, good point about the mourning store.
Actually the hindu devotees since forever used to cover themselves in ashes as a sign of humilty and acknowledgement of their own mortality,just as ancient hebrews. A few more religions use the ashes produces after cremation (that one makes me uneasy;))
 
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visionary

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Still... there is something to be said for Abraham thinking that ashes is an appropriate response... Maybe Job verses said it best.

In death there are two ways of handling the dead body... by burying and by burning to ash.. which is still the two basics used today.. and scripturally we do not find any bodies being burned just buried... soooooo??
 
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Desert Rose

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well.. to answer the question why exactly ash? is hard, we dont know. Could be just that ash was widely available,from wood used for heating/cooking and covering themselves in it/wearing something ugly like sackcloth as a sign of humility and mourning? Maybe we are overthinking it, and there is nothing else behind that?

Even though Numbers: For the unclean person, put some ashes from the burned purification offering into a jar and pour fresh water over them.
and various
A man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They shall be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin.
verses coupled wiht the old timers tradition to purify water for laundry by running it thru ash , common practice in Europe and for american pioneers..

oh, no!!! I am falling into conspiracy theories! MTAA ,buddy, I caught your disease!

Actually i am very interested if there is something behind that, i got to ask rabbi again. Just dont want my parents to get exited, that i might be returning back from christianity, or something :) I've been asking him a lot lately..
 
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Lulav

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Yes, ash and fat (from the animal) does make soup. This could have been a physical way of washing ones uncleanness and thus that might have been what Abraham was referring to.

Abraham came from Ur which was right downstream to Babylon. The earliest recording of soap making is from Babylon in 2800 BC well before Abraham's time.
 
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Lulav

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YeP I know the technique, have books and all the ingredients and equipment yet still haven't made one bar yet!:sorry:

(Excuse my slip of the keyboard, maybe I was thinking of the Salvation Army slogan, Soup, Soap and Salvation! ) :D

Actually I'm in a lot of pain today and not thinking clearly and my PC doesn't have a spell check for correctly spelled but wrongly used words. ;)
 
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aniello

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Oh, not to worry. My wife was standing over me with her ball bat to make sure I didn't blow it spelling-wise. ;) I was always fortunate having court reporters and secretaries who were literate. My computer does have spell check but when it tells me I booboo-ed I don't know what to do about it. I think it's a "guy thing". My brother, dodari, who was here months ago, was raised mainly on the reservation and also he's an engineer. His spelling, punctuation and syntax reveals new frontiers in English. I am older and was raised by my mother's older brother in a large mid-western city and the school was a private prep-school(Jewish) so I had many advantages over him. He lets me know about it too. A better brother no one could have.

I pray HaShem will heal you and comfort you and my wife does too. b'Shem Y'shua, Amein. Chronic pain, for years, is exhausting, we know. It's only by His mercy we can go on, ah, but with joy.

Shalom
 
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