The True Israel

Lysimachus · Dec 25, 2010

PART 3

Dispensationalists try to accuse Historicists of God not really meaning what He says. But this is a diversionary tactic to avoid the real issues that are involved pertaining to these promises.

The question we should be really asking is: Does God ever break a promise or covenant with anyone? Or is it the people that choose to break covenants with God? Quite frequently we find the conditional element of the word “IF” and “THEN” associated with God’s promises to Israel. You will find numerous phrases scattered throughout the Old Testament such as “If ye hearken unto me, THEN….I will….”, which clearly demonstrate that all God’s promises are conditional based on Israel’s faithfulness to Him. This becomes embarrassingly simple logic that Dispensationalists have chosen to ignore.

One of the strongest examples can be found in 1 Kings 9:4-7 – “And IF thou wilt . . . do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever … But IF ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or YOUR CHILDREN, and will not keep my commandments … Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people.”

We see here how the conditions to these promises are clearly laid.

I ask the question, do dispensationalists really grasp the deep implications involved with these conditions? Or are they going to conclude that God’s conditions really don’t mean conditions? I propose that when the Lord establishes conditions for promises to be fulfilled, he means just what he says! And God has NEVER changed his conditions. God has always placed before all mankind the options of life or death. To have it any other way is to excuse the sins of national Israel, calling evil good and good evil, and making light of Israel’s rejection of the Son of God.

The verses cited cast but a small glimpse on the example of conditional promises given to Israel in the Old Testament. But there are many more. In Jeremiah 18:6-10, we see God addressing Israel and then comparing it to any nation that will repent or do evil in His sight. In Deuteronomy 7:8-12, we see Moses instructing the Children of Israel that if they would keep the commandments, the Lord would keep unto them the covenant which he swore unto their fathers! And on the other hand, continuing in Deuteronomy 8:1, 19 and 20, if they disobeyed God they would perish like the nations that they were to dispossess. This is not to mention the warnings that the land would spue them out also, as it had spued out their predecessors (Leviticus 18:26-28; 20:22).

Take specific note to the statements of the conditional nature of a great number of promises and prophecies made to the literal nation of Israel. In each case the fulfillment of the promise was conditioned on obedience: (a) their status as the chosen people, Ex. 19:5, 6; Deut. 28:9; (b) a great nation, Deut. 28:1, 7, 9, 10, 13 (compare verses 15, 25, 48); (c) a holy nation, Ex. 19:6; Deut. 28:9; (d) blessings, Deut. 7:9-14; 28:1-14 (compare verses 15-68); 30:16, 19; (e) the land, Deut. 8:1, 7-9; 30: 19, 20 (compare Lev. 18:26-28; Deut. 28:15, 64); 1 Kings 9:3, 6, 7; 1 Chron. 28:8; 2 Chron. 7:16, 19, 20; Eze. 33:24-26; 36:26-28; (f) the Davidic line of kings, 1 Kings 2:3, 4; 8:25; 9:4, 5; 1 Chron. 28:4-9; 2 Chron. 6:16; 2 Chron. 7:17-22; and (g) blessing to the nations, Eze. 36:23, 33-36; 37:23, 28.

But since the conditions laid forth were only partly met, the promises were only partially fulfilled in Hebrew history. We also see that Solomon was chosen “to be king over Israel for ever” (1 Chron 28:4), along with many more promises that his nation would prosper and stand for ever, yet after Solomon sinned against the Lord, these conditional promises were not fulfilled. After Solomon apostatized, and although he saw the folly of his ways before he died, his kingdom was divided and ten of the tribes were permanently lost to his dynasty. Now while it is true that his descendants ruled Judah as long as it lasted as a nation, the kingdom did eventually come to an end and the crown of David’s dynasty was removed “until he come whose right it is” (Ezekiel 21:27). This is referring to the divine Son of David (Matthew 21:5,9). Although Solomon and the royal line of David failed to realize and live up to the conditions of the promises laid forth, the prophecy of David’s seed meets its antitypical, unconditional fulfillment in Christ, who will yet rule over an eternal kingdom (Ps. 89:3, 4; Isa. 9:6, 7; Jer. 23:5; Luke 1:32, 33).

Take note to the following from Dr. Froom:

“Christian Church continues the Seed of Israel.—Jerusalem knew not the time of her visitation, and consequently her house was left to her "desolate" (Matt. 23:28), and the rejected Lord wept over her fate. Though the destruction was delayed forty years, there was no repentance to avert the nation's doom. There was no assurance, as before (Jer. 5:10, 18), that the destruction was to be only temporary. The servants who had repeatedly abused the prophets had finally crucified the Son of the Owner of the vineyard, and consequently were dispossessed. The Son Himself had pronounced sentence upon them: "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21: 43). Many were to come from the east and west to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the place of the rejected children of the kingdom (Matt. 8:11, 12). These were to come from among the Gentiles and would prove themselves "Abraham's children" more truly than the Jews because they "would do the works of Abraham" (John 9:39).

When the great body of the professed seed of Abraham—the official body—rejected their King, the Mediator of the new covenant, they inevitably cut themselves off from the Messianic kingdom and the covenant relationship. The only Jews who retained these relationships were the remnant (Rom. 11:5), those who accepted their Messiah and became the nucleus of the Christian church; these were the true children of Israel. To them were added the Gentile converts, the "wild olive" branches who were grafted into the parent stock in place of the natural branches that had broken themselves off (Rom. 11:16-24).

Thus the rejection of the nation of Israel did not invalidate the prophecies or cut off the line of God's chosen people. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect" but "the children of the flesh" were replaced by "the children of the promise" (Rom. 9:6, 8)—the spiritual seed of Abraham. (Questions on Doctrine, pp. 226-227)

Lysimachus · Dec 25, 2010

PART 4

Dealing with the issues of principles of prophetic interpretation, Dr. Raymond Cottrell insightfully writes in his article The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy the following:

VIII. Conclusion: Principles of Interpretation: In general, Old Testament promises and predicts were addressed to literal Israel and were to have been fulfilled to them, conditional on obedience. Partial compliance on their part with the will of God made possible a partial fulfillment of the covenant promises on Gods part. Yet many of the promises, particularly those concerning the giving of the gospel to the nations and the establishment of the Messianic kingdom, could not be fulfilled to them because of their unfaithfulness, but would be fulfilled to the church on earth preparatory to Christs return, particularly to Gods remnant people, and in the new earth.

When the Jews rejected Christ as the Messiah, God in turn rejected them and commissioned the Christian church as His chosen instrument for the salvation of the world (Matt. 28:19, 20; 2Cor. 5:18-20; 1Peter 2:9,10; etc.). Accordingly, the covenant promises and privileges were all permanently transferred from literal to spiritual Israel (Rom 9:4; cf. Gal 3:27-29; see on Deut. 18:15). Promises not already fulfilled to literal Israel either would never be fulfilled at all or would be fulfilled to the Christian church as spiritual Israel. Prophecies that fall into the latter classification are to be fulfilled in principle but not necessarily in every detail, owing to the fact that many details of prophecy concerned with Israel as a literal nation situated in the land of Palestine. The Christian church is a spiritual nation scattered all over the world, and such details obviously could not apply to it in a literal sense. Prophecies of the former classification cannot now be fulfilled because they were strictly conditional in nature and limited in scope, by their very nature, to literal Israel.

The fundamental principle by which we can tell unerringly when any particular promise or prediction of the Old Testament made originally to literal Israel is to meet its fulfillment with respect to spiritual Israel iswhen a later inspired writer makes such an application of it. For instance, the prophecy of the battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38,39 was never fulfilled to literal Israel; but John the revelator assures us that in principle, though not necessarily all details (such as those of Eze. 39:9-15), this battle will occur at the close of the millennium (Rev. 20:7-9). But to go beyond that which is clearly set forth by Inspiration---in the immediate context of the passage concerned, in the New Testament, or in the Spirit of prophecyis to substitute personal opinion for a plain Thus saith the Lord. Where Inspiration had not thus clearly spoken it is our privilege to compare scripture with scripture in an endeavor to understand more perfectly the mind of the Spirit. But here, as in all exposition of Scripture, we should avoid affirming as the explicit teachings of the Bible that which is our private, finite view, however plausible it may appear to be. Furthermore, Old Testament prophecy must first be examined in terms of its historical application to literal Israel before the validity of a derived application to spiritual Israel may be undertaken.

One of the main objectives of the Bible commentator is to reconstruct the historical setting in which the declarations of the prophets were originally made. Christianity is a historical religion, and its inspired messages are anchored to the hills and valleys, the deserts and rivers, of the ancient world, and to literal men and women who once walked the earth. There is no surer protection against the speculative vagaries of religious visionaries than a clear knowledge of the historical context of Scripture.

Though the prophet looked at events about him, he also could see far beyond his own day. In a mysterious way known only to God the prophets words were sometimes intended to meet their fulfillment in the then far-distant future. At times they had an import, not only for the age in which the prophet lived, but also for a day far future; in other words, they had a dual application. Similarly, the way sin which God dealt with men in crises of the past are often cited as examples of the manner in which He will deal with all the world in the last day (see on Deut. 18:15). For example, the judgment that came upon Sodom and Gomorrah, literal cities of the ancient past, is used by Bible writers as descriptive of the judgment God will eventually bring upon all the world.

The student of the Bible who hopes to secure it from the greatest help will first proceed to reconstruct the historical context of each passage. He will listen to the prophet speaking to Israel of old and endeavor to understand what his words meant to the people who originally heard them. But he will listen also for the further import the prophets words may have for later times, particularly, our time. Indeed, this secondary application is for us today the more significant. But it is only against the background of the original historical context of the message that its meaning and value for us can be established with certainty.

A study of the Old Testament prophets that consist primarily of lifting selected passages here and there out of their historical context and arbitrarily applying them to our dayas if the prophet spoke exclusively for our benefit is fraught with grave danger. In fact, this procedure is responsible more than anything else for the fanciful interpretations that distinguish the teachings of certain religious groups.

In an age when every wind of doctrine is blowing it is well to make certain that our understanding of Bible prophecy rests upon a positive Thus saith the Lord (see Deut. 29:29; Isa. 50:11; Jer. 2:13; Matt. 7:24-28; 1Cor 2:4,5,12,13; Eph. 4:14; Col. 2:2-4,8; 2Peter 1:16; Rev. 22:18). In so doing we shall be secure against the fanciful explanations given certain Old Testament prophecies. We shall be protected against the grossly literal explanation of some expositors concerning the return of literal Israel to literal Palestine to rule the world for a thousand years prior to the close of human probation, and also against other equally unscriptural interpretations that propose to apply allegorically to the church all the details of the promises originally made to literal Israel. Both of these extreme methods wrest the obvious intent of the Scriptures and render a sound understanding of the passages of the prophets for the church today unattainable. (Raymond Cottrell, The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy, Section VIII)

Cottrell then goes on to offer some following simple rules that he suggests as a safe approach to the study of each prophetic passage of the Old Testament:

Examine the prophecy in its entirety. Note by whom it was spoken, to whom it was addressed, and the circumstances that called it forth. Remember thatgenerally speakingit was originally given with respect to the historical circumstances that called it forth. It was ordained of God to meet the needs of His people at the time it was given and to remind them of the glorious destiny that awaited them as a nation, of the coming of the Messiah, and of the establishment of His eternal kingdom. Discover what the message meant to the people of that time. (This rule does not apply to those portions of the book of Daniel that the prophet was bidden to shut up and seal, or to other passages whose application Inspiration may have limited exclusively to our own time.)
Observe the conditional aspects of the prediction and ascertain whether or not, or to what extend, the conditions were met.
Discover what application later inspired writers make of the prophecy, and on this basis determine its possible significance for Gods people in this time.
Remember that the record of Gods dealing with His people in ages past has been recorded for the benefit of all later generations to the end of time. Our study of messages originally proclaimed by holy men of old to the people of their day is not to become an end in itself, but a means of discovering the will of God for all who would render Him truehearted service now, at the climax of the ages. The voice of God through the prophets distinctly speaks to us today. (ibid, Section VIII)

He concludes by stating that if these rules are consistently followed, the resulting interpretation can be accepted with confidence. In the inspired utterances of the prophets of old, the sincere seeker for truth will thus find messages of inspiration, comfort, and guidance for today.

Biblewriter · Dec 25, 2010

Lysimachus said:
To Biblewriter, Preacher, and Dispy,

Upon reading your posts, I discovered that responding to each point will avail nothing because I would just repeat the very same thing to everything.

Our problems here have to do with the issue of conditional and unconditional promises.

I will therefore lay down in black and white as to how I believe the scriptures are to be interpreted pertaining to the principles of conditional and unconditional prophecies.
...To give an example of types that will never be fulfilled: Notice that according to Ezekiel chapter 38 and verse 5, the nations of Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are mentioned in this great battle as "prominent" world powers. Let us raise the question: Are we to apply these nations as significant powers in our modern day? Just the fact that these nations were mentioned in Ezekiel 38 only shows that the Prophets were speaking in accordance to the world that they knew at that time.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 say absolutely nothing about these nations as "prominent." They simply say that they will be involved in the attack.

Had Israel remained faithful, and accepted the Messiah, these prophecies would have met fulfillment in such detailed manner as described in Ezekiel, and they would have destroyed ALL their enemies around the actual city of present-day Jerusalem. The problem with modern-day evangelicals is that they read passages in Old Testament books such as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Zechariah, etc., and they take every word so literalistically, that they try to mesh and blend in these conditional type prophecies to the literal nation of Israel with Daniel and Revelation's unconditional antitypes, and it makes the prophecies virtually impossible to understand.

The problem with your position is that you assume, without a shred of scriptural evidence, that these prophecies are conditional. There is nothing even approximately resembling a condition attached to even one of the prophecies that any of us have cited in this discussion.

And your claim that this makes the prophecies virtually impossible to understand is simply incorrect. They can be understood only by believing what they say, and patiently putting the pieces together. I have done this very thing and assembled it into a 300 page book which explains how all these varied pieces indeed fit together into a clear picture. Some of the biggest names in the dispensational field have endorsed this book, titled "Keys to Bible Prophecy," in very strong language.

Did Christ actually literally die by being slain by a priest in the courtyard of the Temple? No, because Israel chose to convict him as a false prophet. They slew him as a convict, not as a lamb.

Exactly in a literal fulfillment of the explicit statements od Isaiah 53.

Dispensationalists continue to argue that God will never revoke his “land promises” to National Israel, therefore, 1948 becomes highly significant.

Some dispensationalists say this, but quite incorrectly. 1948 is significant only in as far as the end time scenario presented in the scriptures opens with Judah in her land.

Allow me to clarify: I do believe the land-promises will be fulfilled, but at the end of the millennium. In other words, I believe that the New Jerusalem will descends from heaven and physically settle in Palestine, on the Mount of Olives, and Israel, the embodiment of the saints from all ages, will physically, and literally inherit the land. What I do not believe, however, is that this takes place at the beginning of the millennium. I do not believe it makes sense for wicked people to be amidst Christ and His people for 1000 years. What nuisances--who wants wicked people all over prancing about the surface of the earth in a time of "peace"? I don't believe that the term "reigning" means we will reign over wicked people, because Revelation 22:5 tells us that the saints will "reign for ever and ever" after the earth has been made new. Unless we are to conclude that wicked people will exist forever, even in the earth made new? I could not imagine even a less learned dispensationalist concluding such a ridiculous notion. I believe that every Bible verse that Dispensationalists (or Messianics) use to apply to an earthly reign is to be applied at the end of the millennium, not during the millennium.

And this is the central essence of your problem. You claim for yourself the wisdom to judge which of God's promises are "reasonable" and which are "unreasonable." But there could not be a more unreasonable prophecy that that a virgin would give birth to a child, but this was fulfilled literally, and not typically.

It's important to realize that many of the prophecies, such as that of Ezekiel 36-48 have, been, REDEFINED by the Prophet John. John takes the prophecies of Gog and Magog and Jerusalem, originally meant for national Israel, and now applies them at the END of the Millennium in Revelation 20--which now will be fulfilled when God defends the New Jerusalem against the onslaught of Satan and his wicked hosts. Revelation 20 is also the antitypical version of Zechariah 14.

There isn't even a part of a syllable in Revelation 20 that even hints at the idea that it is speaking about the same event as Ezekiel 38 and 39. In actuality, these two events take place about a thousand years apart.

Promises not already fulfilled to literal Israel either would never be fulfilled at all or would be fulfilled to the Christian church as spiritual Israel. Prophecies that fall into the latter classification are to be fulfilled in principle but not necessarily in every detail, owing to the fact that many details of prophecy concerned with Israel as a literal nation situated in the land of Palestine.

This is simple unbelief. Nothing more.

The Christian church is a spiritual “nation” scattered all over the world, and such details obviously could not apply to it in a literal sense. Prophecies of the former classification cannot now be fulfilled because they were strictly conditional in nature and limited in scope, by their very nature, to literal Israel." ((Raymond Cottrell, The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy, Section VIII)

Commenting on Types and Antitypes regarding Ezekiel, Bob Pickle insightfully states:
How should we view Ezekiel's prophecy? Now for the proposal of a fourth explanation. Ezekiel's yet unfulfilled prophecy is clearly a type of the new earth. Therefore we may say that it is a prophecy about a conditional type of an unconditional antitype. Because of Israel's sins, the type will never take place, though the antitype will definitely come to pass. (Bob Pickle, Does Dispensationalism Allow to Be Fulfilled The Very Prophecies It says Must Be Fulfilled? - pickle-publishing . org)
In conjunction with the article cited in the above quote, I also recommend another article by Bob Pickle entitled Ezekiel’s City: Calculating the Circumference of the Earth

I am extremely disappointed that you simply quote what others have written on these subjects in this and the following posts, which I will not even bother to answer. If you could show your position from scripture, you should do so. But to simply quote the reasonings of men as opposed to the many scriptures we have cited is to elevate the reasonings of men above the explicitly stated word of God.

Therefore, when we understand Old Testament prophecies with these lenses, we see therefore how many of these prophecies (such as sacrifices, and feast keeping) will no longer be fulfilled in detail to the literal nation of Israel, rather, "antitypically" to the worldwide body of saints. The sacrifices have met their end at Christ's death (antitypically), and feast keeping will be kept literally, in heaven, at the great supper of the Lamb.

The "lenses" you speak of are actually blinders which render any true understanding of the prophetic scriptures impossible, as you incorrectly asserted above. Until you remove these blinders from your eyes, you will never even begin to understand the prophetic scriptures. Indeed many who hold your false system of interpretation falsely claim that these prophecies cannot be understood. It is these blinders that cause this blindness.

Some things, such as those you have cited here, are said in the scriptures to be types which have met their fulfillment in Christ. But to successfully carry your argument, you would have to demonstrate that these prophecies were also conditional. This you cannot do, for most of them contain no condition of any kind whatsoever.

Lysimachus · Dec 25, 2010

Biblewriter,

I gave you plenty of conditional scripture to chew on. You seemed to have overlooked 90% of what I wrote. It is important for you to grasp the principle of conditional types of unconditional antitypes. The conditional prophecy itself does not fail. Although its initial method of fulfillment may. The types are conditional, the antitypes with world-wide spiritual Israel will ultimately come to pass.

But I'll give you more if that is what you need:

“Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.” (Exodus 19:3-6)

Notice the words “if” and “then.” God said that “if” Israel obeyed, “then” they would be His peculiar treasure. That tiny word “if” involves a big issue. That word has to do with conditions. God loved Israel, He chose them apart from any obedience in their part. He brought them out of Egypt, bore them on eagle’s wings, and brought them to Himself. Yet, contrary to popular opinion, God’s use of the word “if” made it clear that the continuation of His favor to the Israelites was conditional upon their response to His goodness, upon their choices to obey. In other words, the members of the chosen nation must themselves choose correctly, or the consequences would be disastrous!

Forty years later, Israel entered the Promised Land and remained their for about 800 years. During this period, many responded to God’s love by obeying His voice. But the majority strayed from the path of righteousness. Again and again, God manifested His mercy by raising up prophets and pleading with Israel to return to the covenant. Yet apostasy continued and deepened. Finally, after hundreds of years of warning, disaster struck. In 722 B.C., the northern tribes were carried away by the cruel Assyrians. In 586 B.C., Judah was taken to Babylon. Such was the result of wrong choices.

In 586 B.C., the armies of Babylon demolished Jerusalem and burned the temple with fire. The Jews were removed from their land and carried into captivity. Yet, in the mercy of God, this exile was not to be permanent. The prophet Jeremiah predicted that God “would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.” (Daniel 9:2). After 70 years the Jews would leave Babylon, return to their land, and rebuild their temple and their city. God had decided to give His chosen nation another chance to respond to His love. In simple terms, the Lord was saying: “You blew it, Let’s try again!” This second chance had to do with the 70 weeks.

Dispensationalists try to accuse Historicists of God not really meaning what He says. But this is a diversionary tactic to avoid the real issues that are involved pertaining to these promises.

Before Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 B.C., the Lord promised them that their city would have remained forever had they remained faithful, and hallowed the Sabbath of the Lord.

Notice the promise given through Jeremiah, the Lord's prophet:

“Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers. But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction. And it shall come to pass, IF ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein; THEN shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain FOR EVER.” (Jeremiah 17:21-25)

So the question to be asked is, did they obey the Lord and hearken unto what he said? Obviously not. Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem not long after, while Jeremiah was yet alive. Israel had just blown their first chance, and consequently the Lord allowed them to destroy themselves by breaking the covenants. But the Lord gave them another chance through the prophecy of the Prophet Daniel in chapter 9 verses 24-27. This was to be the SECOND and LAST chance for the national state of Israel. But the prophecy foretold once again what Israel would incur upon itself: “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help;” “for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.” (Hosea 13:9; 14:1) Did God break any promises with Israel? It is quite apparent He did not, nor ever will. But Israel clearly broke the covenant with their God in their iniquity, and the consequences are not to be trifled with. Says the Lord concerning Israel, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.” (Hosea 4:6)

Now we come to the meat of the subject. Did God’s promises still stand? Most certainly. We must first understand that if Israel broke the covenant, obviously, the Lord’s mercies are still granted to any who are willing to take hold of His covenant of promise. Correct?

So is it possible that the kingdom of Israel was transferred and given to another nation? If so, what nation was this? Notice the clear words of Jesus as he looked directly into the eyes of the Jewish leaders, and said:

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”- Matthew 21:43

Now compare what Jesus said above to what God called Israel in Exodus 19:5, 6: "Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an HOLY nation.”

At this point, we clearly see that Israel was a “peculiar treasure”, a “kingdom of priests” and a “holy nation”.

But let’s not stop there! The next question to be asked is, WHO IS THIS NATION that Jesus told Israel their “kingdom” would be given to?

NOTICE what Peter wrote to the GENTILE CHURCH:

“Peter, an apostle of Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia….” , “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” ~ 1 Peter 1:1; 2:9,10

Did you just catch that? Who was the nation chosen for the Kingdom of Israel to be transferred to? TO THE CHURCH! To the Gentile strangers scattered throughout different regions, they were now called a “peculiar people”, a “royal priesthood”, and a “holy nation”, of which the “kingdom” (Israel) Christ spoke of would be given to!

We are the “ISRAEL OF GOD” spoken in Galatians 6:16! How is it that modern prophecy teachers are missing this glaring evidence from the sacred Writ? The Israel of God is composed of both “Jews AND Gentiles!”. The wall of partition between Jew and Gentile has come crashing to the ground by the blood of Christ at the cross. We are now “one body” in Christ Jesus, not two bodies! (Ephesians 2:12-16; 3:6)

It becomes ever so clear that the Church is Modern Israel of the spirit, and that the nation of Israel was God’s Church of Old that broke the everlasting covenant, therefore making themselves “Israel after the flesh” (1 Corinthians 10:18 ) . As the Holy Spirit fell upon Stephen, the LAST prophet sent by God to the nation of Israel, he retraced the entire history of his people to the Jewish leaders in one sweep shortly before they stoned him to death, and committed their final sin.

“This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt.” ~ Acts 7:37-39

The Lord has given us all the tools to decode these marvelous truths, yet Satan desires to make modern Churches think that their obligations to God are somehow distinct and different from the past moral obligations of Israel. Truth be told, if we, God’s chosen generation, the CHURCH, also hearken not onto the Lord by keeping His commandments, we also will break our covenant with the Lord and we will no longer remain his chosen people.

Dispensationalists will try to argue and say that the Greek word “Church” by Stephen is to be interpreted as “congregation” as understood in the Septuagint as a translation from the Hebrew word qahal, deriving these arguments from John Wolvoord and Fruchtenbaum, and try to convince us that the term “ekklesia” was also used in Acts 19:39 to refer to the assembly of pagans. But this becomes nothing more than a feeble argument when considering that every word for “Church" is “ekklesia” in the Greek, and everyone of them can be translated as “congregation” if one really wanted to. The fact is, God was dealing with his congregation in the wilderness, and because they failed to hold true to their promises to God’s eternal covenant, God transferred His blessings to a new congregation—the new congregation to be built up by the Apostles, the Church! Stephen was well aware of Christ’s past usage of the word “ekklesia” in Matthew 16:18. I’m simply not impressed with the sort of semantic jugglery being done to the simple understanding of the context of the texts. In Acts 7:38, national Israel was still clearly considered God’s chosen people. Additionally, it should be noted that when Luke wrote the book of Acts, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit impressed him to utilize that Greek word “ekklesia” to translate Stephen’s final speech to the Sanhedrin. Luke was very well aware that God’s congregation was now realized in the Church for which Christ came to establish through His 12 apostles. For a complete and sound exegesis refuting the “ekklesia” argument put forth by Dispensationalists, please visit Bob Pickle’s analysis entitled: The Word “Church” in the Old testament which includes page 2 in the Research Papers section at pickle-publishing . org. It should be noted that in the Greek, the word “ekklesia” literally means “the ones called out”. This definition is rightly fitting to Israel who was “called out of Egypt”, and which typifies New Testament Christians who are called out of sin and Babylon.

Biblewriter · Dec 25, 2010

Lysimachus said:
Biblewriter,

I gave you plenty of conditional scripture to chew on. You seemed to have overlooked 90% of what I wrote. It is important for you to grasp the principle of conditional types of unconditional antitypes. The conditional prophecy itself does not fail. Although its initial method of fulfillment may. The types are conditional, the antitypes with world-wide spiritual Israel will ultimately come to pass.

But I'll give you more if that is what you need:
“Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, THEN ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.” (Exodus 19:3-6)
Notice the words “if” and “then.” God said that “if” Israel obeyed, “then” they would be His peculiar treasure. That tiny word “if” involves a big issue. That word has to do with conditions. God loved Israel, He chose them apart from any obedience in their part. He brought them out of Egypt, bore them on eagle’s wings, and brought them to Himself. Yet, contrary to popular opinion, God’s use of the word “if” made it clear that the continuation of His favor to the Israelites was conditional upon their response to His goodness, upon their choices to obey. In other words, the members of the chosen nation must themselves choose correctly, or the consequences would be disastrous!

You accuse me of not listening, but that is exactly what you are doing.

I quoted scriptures that very unconditionally say that in a future day God will purge out all the rebels from amongst this guilty nation, and bring all the rest of them to repentance. Thus unconditionally promising that the obedience upon which even these conditional promises are based will eventually be fulfilled.

The scriptures I quoted say this in very clear terms, and all the reasonings of man cannot do away with these unconditional promises.

Lysimachus · Dec 25, 2010

Biblewriter said:
You accuse me of not listening, but that is exactly what you are doing.

I quoted scriptures that very unconditionally say that in a future day God will purge out all the rebels from amongst this guilty nation, and bring all the rest of them to repentance. Thus unconditionally promising that the obedience upon which even these conditional promises are based will eventually be fulfilled.

The scriptures I quoted say this in very clear terms, and all the reasonings of man cannot do away with these unconditional promises.

And what makes you feel that these promises cannot be fulfilled in what we define as a "world-wide Spiritual Israel" that incorporates Jews and Gentiles alike into one body, with the New Jerusalem being the capital of the Saints?

Keep in mind that it makes no sense for their to be 2 Jerusalems, or 2 Capitals. There will only be one Capital for all the saints--and that is the New Jerusalem which descend from heaven.

While there is no clear text to prove it, coupling Zechariah 14 with Revelation 20 and 21, we see that when Christ comes with all His saints, and the Mount of Olives is cleaved into a great plain, the New Jerusalem will settle on this plain. All the saints (Jews and Gentiles together) will live in this City, in the literal land of Palestine. The New Jerusalem will completely replace the Old Jerusalem. And King Jesus, the King of Israel, will reign supreme with us on the earth made new.

Keep in mind that my theology here does not allow for any human being to be inhabiting the planet during the 1000 years. All texts prophesying an earthly reign in scripture will be fulfilled at the end of the Millennium, when the earth is made new. There is no reign on the earth during the millennium. It's in heaven. During the Second Coming (pre-millennial), every saint (Jew and Gentile, including the 144,000) will be caught up into the sky to meet Jesus in the air, and will reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years (not 7 years).

It is not until the END of the 1000 years that all the saints return with Christ, and THIS is the time Jesus touches the earth (Mount of Olives) with His feet.

This is more like a Third Coming, but it won't be for salvation. It will be to hold the Great White Throne Judgment when all the wicked that died by the Brightness of His Second Coming (and natural death) will be resurrected, and they will see the New Jerusalem with all the saints safely inside. This is when Satan rallies his forces to besiege the New Jerusalem, that "Beloved City" in Revelation 20. This is the time when every wicked being sees the nature of their departure, and why they were lost. This is the time in prophecy where EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING that EVER LIVED throughout human history is alive at exact same time. The Lake of Fire will envelope the entire breadth of the earth, save for the Mount of Olives where the Holy City rests. Satan, his demons, and all the wicked hosts will be destroyed. After the Lake of Fire has finished its cleansing work, God will remove it and remake the earth. The saints will witness this amazing scene as God recreates the earth before our very eyes. After the earth is finished being created, the gates will open, and the saints will continue reigning with Christ forever on the earth made new..

Dispy · Dec 26, 2010

Lysimachus:
I have read much of you responses, but not all. From what I have gleemed it would take me to write a book to refute what you posted.

It would be perferred by me that you address only those things that I posted in my first and 2nd posting.

Much of what I have gathered from you writeings is that all of God's promises to Israel and conditional. I agree they are, however, all Israel redeemed Israel will fulfill all those promises when the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and referenced in Heb. 8:7-13.

Being Israel, as a nation, rejected the Trinity, God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes (set aside) (Rom. 11:7-12, 25). Then God raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this present dispensation of Grace where there is no distinction between the Jew and Gentile (Rom. 10:12, Gal. 3:23).

During this dispensation of Grace the Laws of Moses are not in effect, and salvation is no longer doing the deed/works of the Law, by FAITH, but by placing or FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection -1 Cor. 15:1-4) of Christ.

One should keep in mind that we have a all knowing God. He knew the end from beginning. Even prior to creation God knew that Lucifer would attempt to usurp His position (Isa. 14:13, 14), and that created man would fall. Therefore God devised a plan to not only defeat Lucifer, but also provide a means by which all fallen man could be reconciled back to God. That plan was Cross, was kept secret since the world began (1 Cor. 2:8,9) until He revealed it to Paul.

With the temporary setting aside of Israel, God no longer deals with Israel as His special/favorite people. God placed Israel in the same "set aside boat" (figuratively speaking) as He did the Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11.

With the temporary setting aside of Israel, God interrupted the prophetic program pertain to Israel, and is now dealing with mankind, without distinction, based upon "the mystery, which was kept secret since that world began", and revealed to the Apostle Paul. The Church today, the Body of Christ, is the "one new man" of Eph. 2:15.

The Church, the Body of Christ has a heavenly hope/home to look forward to (2 Cor. 5:1, Philippians 3:20), and Israel has an earthly kingdom to look forward to (Jer. 23:5).

God will again deal with Israel as His special/favorite people after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. Israel, as a nation, has a glorious future to look forward to, as promised by God.

As a Gentile, and member of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, I look forward to the rapture, and my heavenly home "...to ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17).

When, and if, you respond, please address only the thing I have posted, and correct me, from Scripture, where you believe I am in error.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2010

Lysimachus said:
And what makes you feel that these promises cannot be fulfilled in what we define as a "world-wide Spiritual Israel" that incorporates Jews and Gentiles alike into one body, with the New Jerusalem being the capital of the Saints?

Again, if you had even bothered to read the scriptures I quoted, you would know that this is physically impossible.

Keep in mind that it makes no sense for their to be 2 Jerusalems, or 2 Capitals. There will only be one Capital for all the saints--and that is the New Jerusalem which descend from heaven.

While there is no clear text to prove it, coupling Zechariah 14 with Revelation 20 and 21, we see that when Christ comes with all His saints, and the Mount of Olives is cleaved into a great plain, the New Jerusalem will settle on this plain.

Without a clear text to prove it, you have nothing but your theories.

All the saints (Jews and Gentiles together) will live in this City, in the literal land of Palestine. The New Jerusalem will completely replace the Old Jerusalem. And King Jesus, the King of Israel, will reign supreme with us on the earth made new.

Keep in mind that my theology here does not allow for any human being to be inhabiting the planet during the 1000 years.

I really am not interested in your theology. I am interested in what the scriptures say. The texts I quoted say in very clear words exactly what I pointed out that they say. You have now admitted that your theology lacks a clear text to prove it. I am not interested in continuing this discussion.

darjohns · Feb 18, 2011

Jesus is the true Israel. This can be seen clearly in Galatians 3:16 and other passages like Matthew 2:15 which quotes Hosea 1:11, which alludes to Exodus 4:22, 23. Jesus is the true vine in John 15 which is another reference to Israel. Jesus comes out of Egypt (like Israel), goes through the water (like Israel), is tempted in the wilderness (like Israel) and suffers exile (at the cross when he cries "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" He is the true Israel and according to Galatians 3 and 6, all those who believe in him (or are baptized into him) are by virtue of being in Jesus are in the true Israel. What someone is ethnically, classwise, or genderwise does not matter.

So then, what does that make the church? Where does this leave us when it comes to the whole God's plan for the church verses Israel and where does that leave so-called "replacement theology"?
Answer: The Church is made up of those who are in Jesus the true Messiah and therefore the true representative of Israel. Since Jesus embodies Israel's life in himself, then all those who are in him are in the true Israel movement. The Church is not a Gentile Church, but a Jew plus Gentile movement. This is not anti-semitic, but is a simple statement that faith in Jesus is the only anybody. God has no other plan, other than Jesus.

Lysimachus · Feb 18, 2011

darjohns said:
Jesus is the true Israel. This can be seen clearly in Galatians 3:16 and other passages like Matthew 2:15 which quotes Hosea 1:11, which alludes to Exodus 4:22, 23. Jesus is the true vine in John 15 which is another reference to Israel. Jesus comes out of Egypt (like Israel), goes through the water (like Israel), is tempted in the wilderness (like Israel) and suffers exile (at the cross when he cries "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" He is the true Israel and according to Galatians 3 and 6, all those who believe in him (or are baptized into him) are by virtue of being in Jesus are in the true Israel. What someone is ethnically, classwise, or genderwise does not matter.

So then, what does that make the church? Where does this leave us when it comes to the whole God's plan for the church verses Israel and where does that leave so-called "replacement theology"?
Answer: The Church is made up of those who are in Jesus the true Messiah and therefore the true representative of Israel. Since Jesus embodies Israel's life in himself, then all those who are in him are in the true Israel movement. The Church is not a Gentile Church, but a Jew plus Gentile movement. This is not anti-semitic, but is a simple statement that faith in Jesus is the only anybody. God has no other plan, other than Jesus.

Well spoken brother! One of the biggest problems in the Dispensational world is that they fail to grasp Types and Antitypes. John the Revelator profusely quotes from the Old Testament prophets and re-applies texts that were originally given for a local-Palestinian setting, and gives them a "world-wide application" concerning the forces of good and evil in the great controversy between Christ and Satan over the human race.

The local prophets may have been unaware that many of their prophecies would be fulfilled in an antitypical light, but it was not for them to necessarily be aware of a future-world-wide, antitypical, spiritual application of their writings, because their concern was mainly for the time they lived.

Dispensationalists will take Revelation 4 through 19, and apply it to the so called "future 70th week" of Daniel 9. In other words, they stuff ALL the events from these 15 chapters and squeeze them into 7 years. Whoah! Isn't that a bit ridiculous??

Have they forgotten that John the Revelator employs Jewish terminology to the 7 Churches of Revelation 1-3? The subject revolves the Churches in the conflict of Israel's enemies...such as Balaam and Balac (2:14), Jezebel (2:20), and the 7 Churches are symbolized as the 7 Golden Candlesticks (1:20)--the Candelabra which was a SYMBOL OF THE JEWISH NATION! In Revelation 2:9, John speaks about false Jews, who "say they are Jews, and which are not" (2:9)--speaking about people who SAY they are Christians and are not. So as we see, Jewish language is once again being employed for the Church. We know Revelation is clearly a symbolic book, so to interpret this verse are referring to literal Jews would not only completely fly in the face of the symbolic nature of the entire book (see Revelation 1:1), but also deny Paul's re-application of a true Jew which states emphatically: "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Revelation 2:9)

Hismessenger · Feb 20, 2011

It has been said in post 265 that there isn't one scripture which identifies Israel as the church. This could not be further from the truth and is based upon new testament doctrine. The true Israel/church is identified all the way back in Exodus.

Here is the scripture which shows that Israel has never been about a physical nation of one blood line but rather the believer as given in the new testament.

If this is thought through, you will see that it is the same basis used in the formation of this country which is naturalism. The main fact which gives it standing is that in order for you to be naturalized whether in this scripture or here in this country, you had/ have to believe in the principals upon which this people and country are founded. Whether you were born here or immigrated and became naturalized are you not still now called an American. Such as it was with the stranger with Israel.

Exd 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat

To deny this is to deny your place in the true Israel. The Church and Israel are one nation of many different nationalities. Not one people from the same blood line.

Note in the scripture that the stranger must fulfill all the requirements of the people who were called Israel who at one time was the same as the stranger. What does the scripture say, we were strangers once ourselves. This is a very compelling argument which can not be explained away. Either you believe in the truth or not. That is entirely up to you.

hismessenger

beloved57 · Mar 4, 2011

darjohns said:
Jesus is the true Israel. This can be seen clearly in Galatians 3:16 and other passages like Matthew 2:15 which quotes Hosea 1:11, which alludes to Exodus 4:22, 23. Jesus is the true vine in John 15 which is another reference to Israel. Jesus comes out of Egypt (like Israel), goes through the water (like Israel), is tempted in the wilderness (like Israel) and suffers exile (at the cross when he cries "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" He is the true Israel and according to Galatians 3 and 6, all those who believe in him (or are baptized into him) are by virtue of being in Jesus are in the true Israel. What someone is ethnically, classwise, or genderwise does not matter.

So then, what does that make the church? Where does this leave us when it comes to the whole God's plan for the church verses Israel and where does that leave so-called "replacement theology"?
Answer: The Church is made up of those who are in Jesus the true Messiah and therefore the true representative of Israel. Since Jesus embodies Israel's life in himself, then all those who are in him are in the true Israel movement. The Church is not a Gentile Church, but a Jew plus Gentile movement. This is not anti-semitic, but is a simple statement that faith in Jesus is the only anybody. God has no other plan, other than Jesus.

Very good post, Israel is the seed of Abraham per Isa 41:

8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The Church that belongs to Christ is the seed of Abraham gal 3:

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

The Church and Israel are the same..All Believers in Christ are the Church and the Israel of God, regardless of what dispensation they belong.

Dispy · Mar 7, 2011

Hismessenger said:
It has been said in post 265 that there isn't one scripture which identifies Israel as the church. This could not be further from the truth and is based upon new testament doctrine. The true Israel/church is identified all the way back in Exodus.

Here is the scripture which shows that Israel has never been about a physical nation of one blood line but rather the believer as given in the new testament.

If this is thought through, you will see that it is the same basis used in the formation of this country which is naturalism. The main fact which gives it standing is that in order for you to be naturalized whether in this scripture or here in this country, you had/ have to believe in the principals upon which this people and country are founded. Whether you were born here or immigrated and became naturalized are you not still now called an American. Such as it was with the stranger with Israel.

To deny this is to deny your place in the true Israel. The Church and Israel are one nation of many different nationalities. Not one people from the same blood line.

Note in the scripture that the stranger must fulfill all the requirements of the people who were called Israel who at one time was the same as the stranger. What does the scripture say, we were strangers once ourselves. This is a very compelling argument which can not be explained away. Either you believe in the truth or not. That is entirely up to you.

hismessenger

The Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law, cannot be found untill after the conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts 9.

The Church, the Body of Christ, is not Israel or spiritual Israel. It is a "new creation" the "one new man" of Eph. 2:15. In that Chruch "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ" (Gal. 3:28, cf. Rom. 10:12).

Israel, as a nation, is presently still in a "slumbering eyes" (set aside) condition (cf. Rom. 11:7-12). They will remain in that condition until "...the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (cf. vs. 25), i.e. the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ.

When God gave Peter the vision in Acts 10, it showed Peter that he should no longer consider one of another nation (Gentiles) common or unclean (cf. vs. 28). That did not bring the Gentiles up to the position that Israel had as God's special/favorite people, but it brought Israel, as a nation, to the same level as the Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11. "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom. 11:32).

Israel, as a nation, has an earthly kingdom to look forward to (cf. Jer. 23:5), The Church, the Body of Christ, has a heavenly home to look forward to (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1, Philippians 3:20, 1 Thess. 4:17).

Being Israel, as a nation, is still in a blinded eye condition, What benefits would I have being a "spritual" Jew?

Hismessenger · Mar 7, 2011

Israel, as a nation, is presently still in a "slumbering eyes" (set aside) condition (cf. Rom. 11:7-12). They will remain in that condition until "...the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (cf. vs. 25), i.e. the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ.

This statement would stand as a whole if it were not for those of Israel who have become members of the church and had their eyes opened to the truth. The disciples being the first to be converted in the new covenant.

So how do you explain the stranger in their midst from the old testament. I gave you a viable explanation which many cannot accept. The Old testament prophets knew of the church. How do you explain this fact if the church didn't exist until the new testament.

Truth being, there was no new testament until after the church had begun. All this must be considered in understanding the origin of the church.

God is not in time but is time and as such chose these things to be long before we were created for our purpose. Our purpose is to glorify God and nothing else.

hismessenger

Heavens · Mar 8, 2011

beloved57 said:
rom 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
There is only one True Israel of God, and that is comprised of the children of promise. Not the children of the flesh..
Israel is the hebrew word Yisrael:
God prevails
This name was given to Jacob after a struggling or wrestling with God, in fact, whom I believe to be The Lord Jesus christ..

gen 32:

24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

25And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
This is a momentous event in the Life of Jacob, and in biblical history, I humbly submit that this was a true conversion experience of the patriarch Jacob..and a type set forth as to all the the true Israelites indeed, whom Have prevailed with God through our Lord and Saviour Jesus christ, and its through him our lives have been preserved..
Jude 1:
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
The Israel, the true Israel has been preserved in Jesus christ.
Gal 6:
12As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God

Notice vs 12, those who want to make a fair show in the flesh, by constraining to circumcision, are no doubt, abrahams seed through the flesh..remember rom 9:
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
abraham [Type of God] had two seeds, a seed according to the flesh, and a seed according to promise..
These two seeds have always been made to differ throughout biblical history, and this is pauls theology and the theology of Jesus christ..notice Jesus words to some very religous people, jews of His day..
Jn 8:

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed,[by flesh] and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37I know that ye are Abraham's seed[by flesh]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children[by promise], ye would do the works of Abraham.
So clearly Jesus recognizes two distinct seeds of or children of abraham..
The fleshly children of abraham, makes a show in the flesh, that is they trust in their performances and misunderstanding of the law covenant, to bring them acceptance with God,,see rom 10:1.
This israel paul says is under bondage, to do the whole law..
Lets look at gal 4:
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is extremely important, and gives to understand a profound truth, as to why we had the events of the life of hagar and her son recorded, to show forth a allegorical truth..
Most should know that the son that abraham had through hagar, ishmael, was not the son God promised, and because of the self effort taken by sarah and abraham to produce the promised son of God, the consequences were very disheartening and solemn indeed..
It lead to these words by God:
gen 18:

10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
This paul alludes to gal 4:
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Now this is the point, the children of abraham by the handmaid, ishamael and his descendants, who are not heirs of promise..they being booted out the house..
This same principle applies to the natural seed of abraham, the physical Jew, they too are as ishamel and his mother, they too are not the heirs of God, the true children of God..
So God, is no more claiming them , the phsysical Jew as spiritual heirs through Jesus christ, no more than if he would claim ishmael and his descendants as heirs to the promises..
This is fascinating, because the dispensationalist of today, and those teaching that fleshly israel has a hope through Jesus christ, or that they will someday be recognized as the True people of God, they are saying, just as much, that ishmael descendants of abraham, have the same claim..which is impossible..
Paul is describing the Jews, the fleshly Jews, those making a shew in the flesh as being under bondadge to the covenant of works:
gal 4:

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

look at vs 25, hagar and her children, those children are the fleshly Jews of the nation of Israel, they are synomous to her real child ishmael, a outcast..
The fleshly israelites are outcast, just as much as heathens and unoticed as ishmael was..
Renmber God when speaking to abraham ? notice..
gen 22:
11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
God recognizes only one son of abraham here, its as though ishamael did not exist..
And so it is with israel of the flesh, they do not even exist as to being heirs of God and His promises, but only the children of promise, those given to abraham by promise of God as Isaach was..and if we be christ, then we be children of promise as issach:
gal 4:
28Now we, brethren,[jew or gentile] as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

And this is Israel..

Very nice. Very true.

The Son of God is Israel;

(Exo 4:22) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Which is Jesus resurrected of course;

(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

You will be hounded by the devil for expounding upon this beautiful truth though...

(Act 10:35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
(Act 10:36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

(Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

(Rom 9:33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

(1Pe 2:6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Blessings to the True Israel of God in Christ Jesus!
:bow:

Lysimachus · Mar 8, 2011

I'd encourage all of you to take out some time to listen to the following audio series. These, by far, are the most thorough, and exegetical audio programs I have ever heard concerning "The Israel of God":

The Israel of God Series:

The Israel of God - Part 1

The Israel of God - Part 2

The Israel of God - Part 3

The Israel of God - Part 4

The Davidic Sanctuary

Enjoy!

ivebeenshown · Mar 8, 2011

oh wow the post by beloved57 has helped me so much. I totally did not 'get' those passages before.

beloved57 · Mar 13, 2011

Israel's Future !

Is there a future in God's Purpose for the People Israel ? Most certainly Yes ! What about National Israel ? Sorry No, remember Paul stated rom 9:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Has not God already fulfilled His Promise to that Nation ? Those called dispensationalist and premillenialist teach and believe [falsely] that God is yet to fulfill promises to this Nation in a coming 1000 yr Millennium Kingdom.

Now the best way to begin to understand these things is by examining the promises made to Abraham, who is the Father of His Natural descendants of the Flesh [National Israel] and even more importantly the Father of His Spiritual Descendants, those that Believe ! Notice rom 4:11

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This is extremely important, because what many fail to realize is that God promised Abraham a believing seed as well as a physical seed.

Now are there promises made to Abraham that are fulfilled, and yet to be fulfilled ? As we look at the promises made to Him, we will notice two types, one which includes Abraham personally in the promise, as well as a promise that does not .

Lets look at this one gen 12:

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

If noticed, this promise did not include Abram, but His seed, and it was not stipulated how long His seed would have this Land. This promise was made again gen 15:

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es, and the Jebusites.

And yet Again Abram is not included as a recipient of this land, and this is important, see also Gen 24:

7The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

As before the promise to enter the land was not for Abraham personally and no definite time frame is given as to how long the land would belong to His seed. It should be noted that the promise of his seed obtaining the land was unconditionally made to Abraham at ther beginning and all He did was build an altar to worship Gen 12:

7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

beloved57 · Mar 13, 2011

Israel's Future ! cont

Now lets look at another covenant promise made to Abraham in the scripture, which did include Abraham personally:

Gen 12:

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen 13:

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

This promise was made to Abraham and His seed, and the continuance of this land grant is stated forever. This promise is spoken again gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Here is the annunciation of it to the other heirs of promise heb 11:

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gen 26:1-5 and 28: 12-15

Lets look at the noticeable difference, the covenant promises of the Land that excluded Abraham, these promises the scripture says have been fulfilled, but the promises of the Land that included Abraham have not been fulfilled..

Now the land acquisition of Abraham's Physical seed, the Nation of Israel, of which no time frame was given expressly, that promise has been fulfilled to that seed of Abraham> Lets look at Josh 21:

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

23:

14And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

neh 9:

7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girga[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

Now, from these scriptures, who can doubt that God has not already kept the land promise to Abraham's physical seed..It was a done deal centuries ago..

Heavens · Mar 16, 2011

You have beautiful understanding of these things Beloved

Aren't they incredible though?!

Yes, the actual "land" covenant fulfilled to Abraham is only in Christ, and that is clarified here;

(Heb 11:14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
(Heb 11:15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
(Heb 11:16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

here is further N.T. description of the "heavenly country" and "city" of the hope of Abraham that he has received with us;

(1Co 3:9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(1Co 3:10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

(1Pe 2:5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(1Pe 2:6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
(1Pe 2:7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

(1Co 3:16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

(Heb 9:11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

(Eph 2:20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(Eph 2:21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
(Eph 2:22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(Joh 2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

(Eph 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Which is, "the INHERITANCE" of the seed of Abraham;

(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

(Gal 3:14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(Gal 3:15) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

(Gal 3:26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(Gal 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Gal 3:29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In the Church is the fulfillment of these things, this "treasure" in us;

(2Co 4:7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled to the Gentile Romans "remnant of faith" as Paul specifically relates;

(Rom 9:27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

of which things Jeremiah foretold about the "house of Israel";

(Jer 31:31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
(Jer 31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
(Jer 31:33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Quoted and witnessed to us by the Holy Spirit, as fulfilled in Hebrews:

(Heb 10:15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
(Heb 10:16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

(Heb 8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(Heb 8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(Heb 8:10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(Heb 8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Blessings and Peace to the true Israel of God!

(Act 10:36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

(Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

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