Only God could have gone to the Cross

Obiwan

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Both sides are wrong.....

Jesus IS God, but he is not the Most High God, our Father, the one we are to Worship in the full sense of the word. Christ is the Son of God, sent by the Father, our Savior, the one we worship in a secondary sense. He is God the Son.

It is the Father who is our ultimate "God". And Him alone.

This is the only way the scriptural "contradictions" can be explained. Hence the need for a "Restoration". One group takes extreme certain scriptures, while another takes the extreme other scriptures. Latter-day Revelation and Scripture has made clear the matter what God's Actual Will and Doctrine is in this matter, in contrast to the doctrines of men.

Christ made clear it is the Father who is "God". But, he also taught that he is God the Son, as one of the Godhead thus also "God".
 
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A New Dawn

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Who is Jesus if he isn't God?

Now I am going to pull some scripture out of context to answer your question; you can go back later and read in context. I'm not going to change any words; I am just going to use a few verses to read at face value.

Matthew 8:27 (this is when he calmed the winds and sea) But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luke 23:47 (Same instance above different words) Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 20:31 But these things are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I am using the gospels because these men were with Jesus, they saw him, they knew him. I believe that of anybody we would be told by the disciples that Jesus was God.

The blasphemy account in John 10:33 - The Jews claimed that he was making himself God but in v36: Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God.

How can he save us if he isn't God? He was God's plan for salvation plain and simple. I do know of one times the angels ministered unto him. It was after the he was tempted by the devil:

Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

We also see in Luke 23:47; he was a righteous man and in John 10:36; that he was sanctified. We know that he always did the Father's will - now about the humbling thing - yes he humbled himself by foregoing his own will to do the will of the Father. I think I had said something about this in Post #105

How can someone who is no more than human meet the requirements for salvation when the scriptures tell us no one can? Well, I see he was a righteous man, he was sanctified and he was God's son. That's as far as I can go with that. I can only go by scripture and it says by man sin came into the world and by the righteousness of one man the free gift of grace came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:12-19)

This doesn't really answer the question. I believe all this, and I believe all this is possible only because Jesus is God. I want you to tell me how all this is possible for someone who isn't God.

Thanks.
 
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A New Dawn

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1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Luke 24:36-39 And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see me have.

Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. John 13:12-17

Romans 3:11-12, "There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Quoting scripture doesn't explain your reasoning.
 
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patience7

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This doesn't really answer the question. I believe all this, and I believe all this is possible only because Jesus is God. I want you to tell me how all this is possible for someone who isn't God.
Thanks.

Well, I answered every question you had but apparently not good enough. In all actuality you don't believe any of it unless - Jesus is God. So as far as taking scripture at face value?

But hey that's OK by me.

Now do you mind if I ask some questions? Whenever I've had any questions in my post no one has bothered to answer them.
 
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A New Dawn

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Well, I answered every question you had but apparently not good enough. In all actuality you don't believe any of it unless - Jesus is God. So as far as taking scripture at face value?

But hey that's OK by me.

Now do you mind if I ask some questions? Whenever I've had any questions in my post no one has bothered to answer them.

You haven't answered any questions, you have quoted scripture like that is an answer. I believe all the scriptures you quoted. I believe they all point to Jesus being God. You haven't explained how these scriptures refute that position. All you have said is that Jesus is not God the Son, he is the son of God. You have said that while the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh, it wasn't God who was made flesh, but you haven't explained how that is possible. You have said that Jesus was sent by God, but haven't explained which classification of being Jesus belongs to. He obviously isn't God, but a mere human can't meet the requirements, so what is he? All you do in response to us asking you to support your beliefs is quote scripture. And as I said, I believe all the scriptures you post, and believe that they point to Jesus being God.

And I have answered questions. I can post the links if you have forgotten them.
 
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patience7

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You haven't answered any questions, you have quoted scripture like that is an answer. I believe all the scriptures you quoted. I believe they all point to Jesus being God. You haven't explained how these scriptures refute that position. All you have said is that Jesus is not God the Son, he is the son of God. You have said that while the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh, it wasn't God who was made flesh, but you haven't explained how that is possible. You have said that Jesus was sent by God, but haven't explained which classification of being Jesus belongs to. He obviously isn't God, but a mere human can't meet the requirements, so what is he? All you do in response to us asking you to support your beliefs is quote scripture. And as I said, I believe all the scriptures you post, and believe that they point to Jesus being God.

And I have answered questions. I can post the links if you have forgotten them.

I had a whole post on why I believed the way I did, but it wasn't good enough either. I have answered your questions - with what scripture? - isn't this a Christian forum and aren't the answers in the scriptures. I support and have supported my belief with the word of God.

Jesus Christ was a man, born of God and Mary. Although he had a will of his own, he submitted his will to the will of the Father.

God the Son humbled himself to himself.
God the Son prayed to himself.
God the Son raised himself from the dead. . . . .

I can't make sense of the Trinity and hey that's ok with me.
 
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A New Dawn

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I had a whole post on why I believed the way I did, but it wasn't good enough either. I have answered your questions - with what scripture? - isn't this a Christian forum and aren't the answers in the scriptures. I support and have supported my belief with the word of God.

Jesus Christ was a man, born of God and Mary. Although he had a will of his own, he submitted his will to the will of the Father.

God the Son humbled himself to himself.
God the Son prayed to himself.
God the Son raised himself from the dead. . . . .

I can't make sense of the Trinity and hey that's ok with me.

This post is just like the rest. The scriptures are clear that no man can meet the requirements for salvation for themselves, let alone for others, yet you insist that Jesus is just a man. All I'm asking if for you to tell me how that is possible.

Jesus never prayed to himself. Jesus did not raise himself from the dead. You are misrepresenting the Trinity here. It is one thing to not believe it, it is another thing to misrepresent it like this. You say you can't make sense of it, yet you are arguing against it. Perhaps you should take the time to try to understand it before arguing against it. It's hard to argue against something you don't understand. It's kind of like my daughter who says she doesn't like something even though she has never tasted it before. :doh:
 
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Evergreen48

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A New Dawn said:
Exactly. I'm glad you see my point.

This is amusing to say the least. I asked you for scriptural support for your following quote:

"Because of the fall, sin has touched everything. One of the things it has touched is man's state. Man was once innocent, in the Garden of Eden, but once he sinned, the natural state of man became fallen.
According to the Bible, because of our sin nature, man cannot be sinless." .

You never furnished that. You quoted Romans 3:10-12, I suppose, to be the scriptural support for your premise that man is born a sinner. I expounded on Romans 3:10-12, showing the proper context of that passage of scriptures. You have not replied to anything that I posted, except to try to make it seem that I would have no other option but to own up to "seeing your point". I admit, that's a pretty slick piece of work. LOL.


So if Jesus is not divine (God), he is just a child of man, and would be unable to do what God required to save us. He would be unprofitable.


Because Jesus is not God, and was human only, did not make him unable to do what God required to save us. It is precisely because he was ENTIRELY human just like us, yet entirely PERFECT that made him able to fill the requirement necessary to save us.
 
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Evergreen48

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Der Alter said:
This was a very important conversation, so why didn't John tell us everything since you are supposing that the account is incomplete?

I did not say I was supposing the account was not complete, and I did not imagine a missing coversation. Dr. Steve gave two options. I gave a third one. But common sense dictates that there would have been more conversation on this occasion than what we find recorded here. And I have not the slightest idea why John didn't, as you say,"tell us everything".

False religious groups accuse true Christians of adding words to scripture, such as "Trinity," "hypostatic union," etc. Here you have imagined a missing conversation.
Also, liars and boasters sometimes accuse true Christians of being in false religious groups.
 
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patience7

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This post is just like the rest. The scriptures are clear that no man can meet the requirements for salvation for themselves, let alone for others, yet you insist that Jesus is just a man. All I'm asking if for you to tell me how that is possible.

Jesus never prayed to himself. Jesus did not raise himself from the dead. You are misrepresenting the Trinity here. It is one thing to not believe it, it is another thing to misrepresent it like this. You say you can't make sense of it, yet you are arguing against it. Perhaps you should take the time to try to understand it before arguing against it. It's hard to argue against something you don't understand. It's kind of like my daughter who says she doesn't like something even though she has never tasted it before. :doh:

The scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ is the Son of God not God. And yes if Jesus Christ is God then he did pray to himself - who else would he have prayed to? God the Father? But aren't they one and the same?

If I am misrepresenting the Trinity then I am sorry. I didn't say I didn't understand the Trinity I said it doesn't make sense.
 
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he-man

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This post is just like the rest. The scriptures are clear that no man can meet the requirements for salvation for themselves, let alone for others, yet you insist that Jesus is just a man. All I'm asking if for you to tell me how that is possible.

Jesus never prayed to himself. Jesus did not raise himself from the dead. You are misrepresenting the Trinity here. It is one thing to not believe it, it is another thing to misrepresent it like this. :doh:
Just one correction which shows the Father is in control and Jesus is just a man with the POWER of the Holy Spirit that God gave to him:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
 
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Evergreen48

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A New Dawn said:
This post is just like the rest. The scriptures are clear that no man can meet the requirements for salvation for themselves, let alone for others, yet you insist that Jesus is just a man. All I'm asking if for you to tell me how that is possible.

You keep saying that the scriptures are clear that no man can meet the requirements for salvation, but you do not furnish the scriptural evidence to support that statement.
Where in the scriptures is it said that man CANNOT meet the requirements for his salvation? That scriptural evidence is not there because there are no oxymorons in the scripture, and that definitely would be one. For, if any person could and did meet the requirements for their salvation, there would be no such thing as salvation, because that person would not need the salvation to start with. Therefore, it is not a question of whether one COULD meet the requirements for their salvation, but remains that though we could be perfect as Jesus was, we are not, and will not be. God never would ask us to do the impossible. That is why we are guilty. We could have, but did not.

You say Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man, and you say that the man Jesus did not meet the requirements for salvation. So that must mean that you believe that Jesus the man did sin, which rendered him unfit to be that lamb without spot or blemish. OH MY!
 
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drstevej

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For, if any person could meet the requirements for their salvation, that person would not need the salvation to start with.

Splain that one.
And splain how grace fits into this
 
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Evergreen48

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Splain that one.
And splain how grace fits into this

Grace doesn't fit into that because it is, as I said before, an oxymoron.

Definition of OXYMORON: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements.
 
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A New Dawn

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This is amusing to say the least. I asked you for scriptural support for your following quote:

"Because of the fall, sin has touched everything. One of the things it has touched is man's state. Man was once innocent, in the Garden of Eden, but once he sinned, the natural state of man became fallen.
According to the Bible, because of our sin nature, man cannot be sinless." .

You never furnished that. You quoted Romans 3:10-12, I suppose, to be the scriptural support for your premise that man is born a sinner. I expounded on Romans 3:10-12, showing the proper context of that passage of scriptures. You have not replied to anything that I posted, except to try to make it seem that I would have no other option but to own up to "seeing your point". I admit, that's a pretty slick piece of work. LOL.





Because Jesus is not God, and was human only, did not make him unable to do what God required to save us. It is precisely because he was ENTIRELY human just like us, yet entirely PERFECT that made him able to fill the requirement necessary to save us.

You havent' shown us the need for a savior if we can be perfect and do it ourselves.
 
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A New Dawn

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The scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ is the Son of God not God. And yes if Jesus Christ is God then he did pray to himself - who else would he have prayed to? God the Father? But aren't they one and the same?

If I am misrepresenting the Trinity then I am sorry. I didn't say I didn't understand the Trinity I said it doesn't make sense.

But you don't understand the Trinity if you are passing this stuff off as your "understanding". What you are describing is modalism, not the Trinity. Like I said, perhaps you should spend some time trying to understand it before you argue against it.
 
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A New Dawn

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Just one correction which shows the Father is in control and Jesus is just a man with the POWER of the Holy Spirit that God gave to him:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

How does that verse show anything similar to what you said?
 
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A New Dawn

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You keep saying that the scriptures are clear that no man can meet the requirements for salvation, but you do not furnish the scriptural evidence to support that statement.
Where in the scriptures is it said that man CANNOT meet the requirements for his salvation? That scriptural evidence is not there because there are no oxymorons in the scripture, and that definitely would be one. For, if any person could meet the requirements for their salvation, that person would not need the salvation to start with. Therefore, it is not a question of whether one COULD meet the requirements for their salvation, but remains that though we could be perfect as Jesus was, we are not, and will not be. God never would ask us to do the impossible. That is why we are guilty. We could have, but did not.

You say Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man, and you say that the man Jesus did not meet the requirements for salvation. So that must mean that you believe that Jesus the man did sin, which rendered him unfit to be that lamb without spot or blemish. OH MY!

First, could you show me where I said anything even remotely similar to that? A link to the post where I said that would be fine. Thanks.

Secondly ........... Why, oh why, would God conceive of the plan for our salvation that was put into effect if we could do it ourselves? If we could do it ourselves, and just didn't care, why would God stoop to save us? I just can't comprehend such a thought. Either we couldn't do it ourselves, and so needed a savior, or we could do it ourselves and don't (and furthermore don't care).
 
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patience7

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But you don't understand the Trinity if you are passing this stuff off as your "understanding". What you are describing is modalism, not the Trinity. Like I said, perhaps you should spend some time trying to understand it before you argue against it.

What I understand of the Trinity is this: God = Father
God = the Son, Jesus Christ God = Holy Spirit

I have posted this before and no one has told me that this is not what means. If this is not what it is then maybe you can tell me what it means? I have never heard of modalism.
 
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What I understand of the Trinity is this:
God = Father
God = the Son, Jesus Christ
God = Holy Spirit
I have posted this before and no one has told me that this is not what means. If this is not what it is then maybe you can tell me what it means? I have never heard of modalism.

The Trinity is something like this:
When someone says, "God," it is naturally assumed they are referring to one specific person.
Trinity doesn't see it this way.
Rather, Trinity re-envisions God to refer to three distinct persons without resorting to the plural, "Gods".
This, however, differs from polytheism in that these three persons are indistinguishable in their intentions, will, agenda, whatever.
In other words, unlike in polytheism, you cannot pit Jesus against Father or Holy Spirit. They won't oppose one another.
They operate as a single entity, but remain three distinct people.

Take a flock of birds flying in the air, for example.
When they turn, they do not curve around, each staying behind the one in front. Rather, they turn their bodies, and those birds on the side become the new leaders.
Their flight is not consciously coordinated, but they instinctively think like a single organism, though they remain unique from one another.
Michael Crichton, for example, used this theory about birds as the basis for his Velociraptors in his novel, "Jurassic Park."

Therefore, when a Trinitarian says, "God," they are not referring to a single person, but a three-fold flock of people that operate as a single hybrid entity.
In this way, they get around the verses that distinguish Jesus as a unique person from the Father while getting to maintain that they are both God.
However, in those verses that distinguish between Jesus and God, I've found that Trinitarians simply don't read THOSE verses at face value.
For example, take a verse that has come up a lot on this thread: John 1:1
It says, "The Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Trinitarians strongly emphasize the bit where it says the Word (which turns out to be Jesus) was God, but tend to skip or redefine the first part, where it says the Word (which turns out to be Jesus) was with God.
Now, if it said, "was with the Father," Trinitarianism would do just fine. However, the verse says God, not Father.
So, the following logic--
The Word was with God.
The Word became flesh.
Therefore, someone who had been with God became flesh.
Therefore, Jesus doesn't seem to have been God.
--gets overlooked, while the logic--
The Word was God.
The Word became flesh.
Therefore, God became flesh.
Therefore, Jesus is God.
--gets insisted upon.
Anyway, that's Trinitarianism.
Three people=one God.

Modalism, on the other hand, says that there is only one God who simply revealed himself throughout history in the forms of three different people, but was actually, all along, just one person. Hence, Jesus, Father and Holy Spirit never exist at the same time, but one after the other.
A modalist, for example, has a problem with Jesus praying to his Father. Since they are actually the same person, Jesus is really just praying to himself.
Anyway, that's modalism.
One God=Three modes.

While I think modalism is not such a great explanation, the Trinity draws an interesting picture of the eternal relationship between Jesus and God. So, while I am not convinced that Jesus is God in the strictest sense, I do think the Trinity is the best explanation available for what the New Testament is trying to explain to us.

There are those 62 verses that seem to indicate that Jesus is God. And, there are a substantial number of verses that explicitly distinguish Jesus from God (Hebrews 2 is a great example).

The strongest argument, however, seems to be that the Bible isn't clear on whether or not Jesus is God, and that any conclusion on this matter is an issue of personal conviction. I am personally convinced that the Gospel was meant to instill us with confidence that Jesus was a willing and able Savior and Lord whether or not he turns out to be God.

Anyway, I hope this helps.
 
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