stealing Churches

henrikhankhagnell · Dec 7, 2010

Pax et bonum!
The Lutheran people stole many of the medieval Catholic churches and now they refuse to give back the churches. That is stealing.
How do Lutherans view this?

bliz · Dec 7, 2010

... and when did these thefts occur?

doulos_tou_kuriou · Dec 7, 2010

We should fear and love God so that we do not take our neighbor's money or possessions, or get them in any dishonest way, but help him to improve and protect his possessions and income.

That I guess would be the official Lutheran Statement on stealing.
Regarding the churches, you might have to be more specific and you might need to at times look into history as to what happened.
For example, the Peace of Augsburg declared that the Prince's determine what the church will be. Thus if you were to accuse Lutherans of "stealing" that church, really it was the Prince who determined what the churches in his Provence would be, the Prince chose not the "Lutherans". Furthermore, though it would be unfair to consider that Prince's stealing it, since it was part of the terms of the treaty. This is just one example that it is not as simple as "lutherans" stole it.
I would also note that it is an unfair statement to paint all of Lutherans-even Lutherans today under anything that happened in the Reformation. No one in Lutheranism today "stole" anything 500 years ago, since they were not alive. They were all born with said churches as Lutheran churches. And it is quite wrong to say then that they stole it. Should I do a family tree, going back 200 years, find out that some aristocrat kicked my ancestors off of their land and go demand it back, and if they refuse call them thieves?

henrikhankhagnell · Dec 7, 2010

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
We should fear and love God so that we do not take our neighbor's money or possessions, or get them in any dishonest way, but help him to improve and protect his possessions and income.

That I guess would be the official Lutheran Statement on stealing.
Regarding the churches, you might have to be more specific and you might need to at times look into history as to what happened.
For example, the Peace of Augsburg declared that the Prince's determine what the church will be. Thus if you were to accuse Lutherans of "stealing" that church, really it was the Prince who determined what the churches in his Provence would be, the Prince chose not the "Lutherans". Furthermore, though it would be unfair to consider that Prince's stealing it, since it was part of the terms of the treaty. This is just one example that it is not as simple as "lutherans" stole it.
I would also note that it is an unfair statement to paint all of Lutherans-even Lutherans today under anything that happened in the Reformation. No one in Lutheranism today "stole" anything 500 years ago, since they were not alive. They were all born with said churches as Lutheran churches. And it is quite wrong to say then that they stole it. Should I do a family tree, going back 200 years, find out that some aristocrat kicked my ancestors off of their land and go demand it back, and if they refuse call them thieves?

Gustav Vasa was one of them who stole the churches. He really hated the catholics. that's why catholic medieval churches in Sverige are in the hands of the lutherans. You can't deny this!

doulos_tou_kuriou · Dec 7, 2010

henrikhankhagnell said:
Gustav Vasa was one of them who stole the churches. He really hated the catholics. that's why catholic medieval churches in Sverige are in the hands of the lutherans. You can't deny this!

I'm not denying anything Gustav Vasa did, I do not even know who Gustav Vasa is. Google tells me a Swedish King. Well, first off, why are you blaming the Lutherans for what he did, and how did it happen? Was it for example a part of the peace of Augsburg (I see he lived in the 1500's) where the treaty granted him that right?

I guess you are going to have to give me better historical context to what exactly Gustav Vasa did. Because your first post did not even mention him but accused the "lutherans" of stealing it and now you are accusing him and the only bit you give me is he hated the Catholics. I'm gonna need a little more facts, because right now you are just trying to get me to "condemn" some act that I honestly do not know enough about. I've given some historical insight that I do have but since that does not seem to address your concern maybe it does not fit, so I need more from you before I could say anything.

KEPLER · Dec 7, 2010

henrikhankhagnell said:
Pax et bonum!
The Lutheran people stole many of the medieval Catholic churches and now they refuse to give back the churches. That is stealing.
How do Lutherans view this?

Ummm, 'refuse to give them back'? Care to expand on this? Is there actually a movement in Sweden to give churches back to Rome?

If so, that's hysterical. Best laugh I've had all day.

henrikhankhagnell · Dec 7, 2010

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
I'm not denying anything Gustav Vasa did, I do not even know who Gustav Vasa is. Google tells me a Swedish King. Well, first off, why are you blaming the Lutherans for what he did, and how did it happen? Was it for example a part of the peace of Augsburg (I see he lived in the 1500's) where the treaty granted him that right?

I guess you are going to have to give me better historical context to what exactly Gustav Vasa did. Because your first post did not even mention him but accused the "lutherans" of stealing it and now you are accusing him and the only bit you give me is he hated the Catholics. I'm gonna need a little more facts, because right now you are just trying to get me to "condemn" some act that I honestly do not know enough about. I've given some historical insight that I do have but since that does not seem to address your concern maybe it does not fit, so I need more from you before I could say anything.

i am only accusing the people who stole churches and the people who wouldn't give important churches back to the catholics. off course i know about catholic benedictines who lived in a old abbey some years ago but our government didn't want them in sweden (not for religious reasons i hope).
about reformation in sweden: History of Sweden (1523â1611) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
it was actually only when Queen Josephine (saint?) lived that we got the first catholic parish after the reformation.
Josephine of Leuchtenberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

KEPLER said:
Ummm, 'refuse to give them back'? Care to expand on this? Is there actually a movement in Sweden to give churches back to Rome?

If so, that's hysterical. Best laugh I've had all day.

no, even vadstena klosterkyrka is in the hands of the lutherans. and why shouldn't lutherans give back the old churches to the catholics since stealing is wrong?

Melethiel · Dec 7, 2010

The Catholic Church stole the Pantheon from the pagans. Should they give it back?

Please elaborate further on HOW these churches were "stolen." Did a bunch of Lutherans suddenly barricade themselves inside and refuse to let the Catholics hold Mass? Or was there a treaty involved? Because if so, that is not "stealing."

Seems to me that you have some kind of chip on your shoulder.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Dec 7, 2010

doulos tou kuriou said:
For example, the Peace of Augsburg declared that the Prince's determine what the church will be.

This is an excellent point. Churches within each Prince-Elector's territory where retained as Catholic or converted to Lutheran use according to whether Catholicism or Lutheranism was to be the official religion of each territory. Both parties, the Catholic Holy Roman Emperor and his allied princes as well as the Lutheran assembly of princes, agreed to this in a formal treaty.

Melethiel said:
The Catholic Church stole the Pantheon from the pagans. Should they give it back?

Haha! Bravo, love!

seajoy · Dec 7, 2010

What, exactly, do you want from us Lutherans here in the forum? You seem mighty cranky at us, for something we had nothing to do with from umpteen years ago. Also, there are now many synods of Lutherans - which ones are you mad at? All of them, or just the descendants of that Gustav guy you are talking about?

filosofer · Dec 7, 2010

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
This is an excellent point. Churches within each Prince-Elector's territory where retained as Catholic or converted to Lutheran use according to whether Catholicism or Lutheranism was to be the official religion of each territory. Both parties, the Catholic Holy Roman Emperor and his allied princes as well as the Lutheran assembly of princes, agreed to this in a formal treaty.

But stealing churches? There is more under the covers here than a church.

But 500 years ago? Hmmm, I have some Irish places that the English stole. You think they would give it back? That was only 300 years ago? And they Church of England?

henrikhankhagnell · Dec 7, 2010

Melethiel said:
The Catholic Church stole the Pantheon from the pagans. Should they give it back?

Please elaborate further on HOW these churches were "stolen." Did a bunch of Lutherans suddenly barricade themselves inside and refuse to let the Catholics hold Mass? Or was there a treaty involved? Because if so, that is not "stealing."

Seems to me that you have some kind of chip on your shoulder.

Gustav vasa stole this church but then many catholic were even killed. I mean that S:ta Birgitta was catholic so why should lutherans occupy vadstena klosterkyrka?
And yes i am angry with anti-catholic Sweden.

Radiata · Dec 7, 2010

Should I report this guy? I'm not talking about Gustav Vasa either.

henrikhankhagnell · Dec 7, 2010

Radiata said:
Should I report this guy? I'm not talking about Gustav Vasa either.

don't report me for asking a question! :preach:

AngCath · Dec 7, 2010

henrikhankhagnell said:
don't report me for asking a question!

But you have to admit that the question is rather absurd as none of us stole anything 500 years ago.

Radiata · Dec 7, 2010

And the way you go around throwing the blame around is pretty sad. Let's watch something more interesting.

YouTube - Batman ualuealuealeuale

henrikhankhagnell · Dec 7, 2010

Radiata said:
And the way you go around throwing the blame around is pretty sad. Let's watch something more interesting.

YouTube - Batman ualuealuealeuale

YouTube - The Catholic and Lutheran Churches focus on their ties during papal visit :groupray:

AngCath · Dec 7, 2010

Not to derail the subject, but what time is it in Sweden right now? Are you nocturnal?

henrikhankhagnell · Dec 7, 2010

Dunstan said:
Not to derail the subject, but what time is it in Sweden right now? Are you nocturnal?

klockan är 04:16 så jag måste nog sova nu.

doulos_tou_kuriou · Dec 7, 2010

filosofer said:
Just a note: The conditions of the HRE did not extend to the Scandinavian churches, so the part about the Peace of Augsburg really does not apply.

But stealing churches? There is more under the covers here than a church.

But 500 years ago? Hmmm, I have some Irish places that the English stole. You think they would give it back? That was only 300 years ago? And they Church of England?

But did not the Peace of Westphalia include Sweden?

stealing Churches

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