Diversities of Gifts, Minstries, Powers, Manifestation

Tobias said:

It's been a really long time since I've heard anyone teach on the Gifts. I do remember taking a giftings test at the Vineyard fellowship I attended over a decade ago. As usual with tests, I remember wondering if the wording of the questions really helped people sort out what their true giftings were.

I found a similar test online: Gifted2Serve - Online Spiritual Gifts Inventory - Questionnaire

It seems to be associated with Peter Wagner. It's based on 25 spiritual gifts. I took it and came up with some scores I did not really expect to see, at least not in this order. From highest working on down, I scored:

Discerning of Spirits
Wisdom
Faith
Teaching
Voluntary poverty
Prophecy
Knowledge




... Interesting!

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This looks really good to me. I am searching on teachings on the Gifts and this looks helpeful. I will read on. Thank you Holy Spirit.

Tobias said:

Kevin,

Sounds like we have worship in common too! I was on the worship team @ the Vineyard during the 90's. It was such a blessing! I can't say I'm all that talented, but I learned to flow in the Spirit of worship.


I was curious what you think of the test. Do you agree that there are 25 gifts? Do you think Wagner's test successfully identifies which ones we operate in?

I've never heard of voluntary poverty as a gift before. It seems too though, that if it is a gift, then it would include living in a class or status of people to which you were not accustomed to, for the purpose of the Gospel. Tied in with missions, but applicable in your home country. Like someone called into being a blue collar worker, when they seem more inclined to be white collar. And living in a suitable neighborhood, even if the pay is something near the same.

Also, the test didn't seem to make much distinction between five fold ministry gifts and the others. I've also heard of "Grace Gifts", different from Gifts of the Spirit. But like I say, it's been a long time since I've heard any teaching on this. With prophecy though, there has always been several different levels of that gift, from five fold Prophets, to regular prophets, to everybody encouraged to "pray that you may prophesy."


I seriously question too, if Wagner really knows what a true apostle is!

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What about variation in various gifts? I will read on and maybe come back to this.

Spirit Compass said:

My answers are numbered to correspond to your paragraphs and statements:

1) Yes, I believe all the gifts are meant for the body of Christ until his return. Yes, I also believe the test, which is a self-assessment then affirmed by another brother, a Son of God. The manifestation of these gifts can be complex, which is why the Church and its typical hierarchy want to devalue or de-emphasize other gifts.

2) The gift of poverty is actually cultural adaptation. If you are chosen and gifted to be a missionary-apostle (which is how Wagner explains the gift in his admistrator's guide) you would live among those to whom you have been sent and expect your income to be within that of those with whom you associate. No shooting stars in the kingdom would accept this kind of ministry.

3) Wagner has a Spiritual Gifts Mobilization Leader's Guide for those administering and overseeing the distribution of gifted workers in the body of Christ. The senior pastor at the Baptist mega-church I attend does this and refers to the gifts as your 'job.' I think that concept or attitude is demeaning and reveals the denominational attitude. I prefer the concept of 'A Divine Mission' and think that the devalution of the gifts given to the body of Christ makes the congregation sick and spiritually poor, even though today's mega-churches boast of their impressive size and community impact. The body needs workers, and the Spirit provides them in abundance. Prophecy is one of the complex gifts, as you have experienced.

4) Now that we are in the 21st Century I think that the apostel ministry is being transformed. Many of the end times ministries declare themselves as apostles and are personalilty-based. They have created the Egoist Movement that was forewarned in the last days. They are the shooting stars. We know them by their fruits. Wagner would not have foreseen the rise and impact of the World Wide Web, mobile telephones, and cyber-space networking. That could be a new ministry of an apostle. The forums here can manifest many gifts, and I think we are all learning how to implement our Divine Mission through it.

Peace and Light.

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Poverty is ancient in the Christian Church. Goes way back. I wonder if it was considered one of the gifts?

!

Peaceful Dove said:

!

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I'm new to all this stuff what is the difference betw een charismatic and wof?

Believer112 said:

I'm new to all this stuff what is the difference betw een charismatic and wof?

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WoF are charismatic, but not all charismatics are WoF.

WoF tends to lean towards a certain emphasis on particular doctrines that are viewed as . . . let me say this nicely . . . not main stream in their emphasis. Some are very extreme, some are not so much.

Charismatics who are NOT Wof, such as my self, on the other hand, believe in the gifts of the SPirit as active and part and parcel of a healthy church and indespensible for life and ministry.

I took that test and it was kind of fun. I've always been awful at evangelism, for example, so i'm not surprised that it was my weakest gift, hahahha. It's kind of encouraging actually. It's not my main thing so I don't have to stress about it so much and I can focus on the other things.

Here are my top ten gifts, lol...

1. Discernment of spirits
2. Faith
3. Ekballism (the ability to cast out demonic spirits)
4. Hospitality
5. Intercession
6. Mercy
7. Miracles
8. Prophecy
9. Administration
10. Wisdom

(6-10 were all scored equally strong in me)

My bottom two gifts are Evangelism and Voluntary Poverty (haha I know that's right)



That was fun!!

Spirit Compass said:

After a time of reading Corinthians again, I was made aware of how little teaching I have heard in the mega-church I have been attending the last eight years about the diversity of gifts, ministries, powers, and manifestations.

It is clear from Paul's writing that he knew his ministry was that of apostle. Chapter 1 declares that, and that the church at Corinth did not lack any of His gifts. I wondered how many apostles could say that about their congregations; how many pastors could affirm that. When I took employment in the ministry of education and administration, I offered the course in a charismatic fellowship. One of the elders complained that it was unnecessary.

If you've been in any renewal or charismatic movement, you know something about the teaching that became the renewal standard, Spiritual Gifts Discovery, by C. Peter Wagner.

Have any of you seen that workshop being offered in a renewal church near you? Does your charismatic fellowship use that during the year? At a regular workshop?

The Baptist church I attended for 8 years, as a worshipper in spirit and truth, had a curriculum option which I took, and used 19 Gifts of the Spirit by Leslie Flynn, followed with a spiritual gifts assessment approved by the senior pastor. Some of the gifts from Wagners discovery text were devalued. We were told those gifts no longer existed in the modern church. My involvement waned there. I sensed any attempt to go beyond their limitation would result in disapproval. I was told that I might be able to find someone who would admit to having one of the devalued gifts, but would have to fellowship in a non-approved, off-sight location.

What has been your recent awareness? Are church leaders tired of the spiritual gifts workshops or assessment, and relying on modern technology to build up the saints as the body of Christ? Has the i-Pod webcast become more important than the workshop on spiritual gifts? Is the modern church asleep in the light?

Suggested study and meditation: http://www.christianforums.com/t7480977/ Vine & Branches

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We both teach and encourage the gifts of the Holy spirit, and the ministry gifts in our church - have done since my childhood.

At Bible College in 1983 I had to go through Peter Wagner's book. I said it was a decieving and heretical approach to the gifts of God, and that such an analytical and psycological approach was demeaning to God and the Holy Spirit.

The manifestation of the Spirit is important in our meetings. The first part of 1 Corinthians 12 shows us how we may clearly observe this manifestation in the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit. Wagner confuses the gifts of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 12 [first part], with the gifts of Christ Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12 [latter part], and the gifts of God Romans 12. Lumping them as a whole in his book, he draws an incorrect conclusion. The result is restrictive rather than liberating.

One of the ministries of the Apostle is to facilitate growth and maturity in the walk of the Spirit. This includes the gifts. They're usually prophets as well, who have revelation and prophetic gifts that work toward this end.

There's no need to fear apostolic ministry (I'm not saying anyone is). Like all ministry we judge by the fruits, and we should be watchful for controlling spirits to enter in to the mix. But the norm is for very uplifting ministry that confirms you in your ministry, which everyone has. Many apostles don't announce their gifts, those speak for themselves powerfully enough on their own.

As far as Peter Wagner goes "Mr. C" as I like to refer to him, regardless of what controversy surrounds him for whatever errant ways he may have had (I'm not judging him), he still no doubt has an apostolic anointing. I've never read anything from him, but I've asked the Lord about certain people like him or those involved in Lakeland. After first being reluctant to approach any of their teaching, I realized that they are just like you or me. Even if they make mistakes or were party to something that went awry, the gifts and callings are without repentance and they still have their anointing. It's the enemy that wants to discredit because then he's successfully "removed" a big gun from the battlefield of your life. I understand the caution and I share it as well.

If you're not led to their teaching, don't pay it any mind, but be open because the Lord gives something unique to each of us and if we prejudge someone because they believe one thing a certain way, then we don't properly discern the Lord's body. I realize this is borrowing a term that is used in a different context scripturally, but the idea is the same.

What if your respected pastor had been involved with a well known ministry that espoused something controversial. Or you even? Would that invalidate their/your lives/life? Absolutely not! We can rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us and enable us to judge all things correctly. When we lay our own judgments at the feet of Jesus, we can see more clearly. If we answer a matter before we hear it, we behave foolishly (prov).

As one who spent a long time scarfing up teaching mp3s that includes some guys who are considered on thin ice publicly I realize that we can be blessed by the revelation for the body the Lord imparts to them (for us). If we're not humble enough to receive, we'll experience lack in some area of our lives, or suffer for our ignorance.

As for the gifts, I like what Norvel Hayes teaches. He says that although you might not operate in all the gifts of the Spirit in body ministry, you have access to them all in your personal walk and ministry. The Lord wants us to cultivate an expectancy,and He'll match our intent to keep a single eye open at His doorposts. In other words, He wants personal revival in our lives in every area. It's something He develops as the author & finisher of our faith, but when we're ready to get with the program, He's on board! Pray for me!

<I found a similar test online: Gifted2Serve - Online Spiritual Gifts Inventory - Questionnaire

While these surveys may be fun and interesting, I don't see them accurately depicting manifestations of the Holy Spirit. This is something that I would imagine a more evangelical camp would produce (No offense if that applies to someone here!).

<Discerning of Spirits

This is the ability to see and hear in the realm of the spirit.

<I can recognize the presence of evil in a person and deal with it through the power of Christ.

We can all discern people who exhibit fruit unlike Jesus, even demonic, but this is different from the gift.

<Wisdom

Word of Wisdom - A piece of God's knowledge of the future. Not at all even God's wisdom for the believer.

<Knowledge

A piece of God's knowledge about right now! It usually indicates something He is doing or wants to do if someone will unite their faith to that anointing.

<Faith

The gift of faith is God's faith to do something impossible and outside the believer's personal faith.

<Teaching

This is a ministry gift, not a gift of the Holy Spirit. The Word shows that some teach in a local body, yet there is a ministry gift where one is separated to the entire body as a teacher, with a special effectual anointing to do so.

<Voluntary poverty

This "worries" me! We know poverty is not of God. It's a spirit from the devil. They're probably talking about ministering mercy by the Spirit of God. Big difference!

Whatever anointing you regularly minister with, with the enabling of God is your gift or gifts. It's done without any "sweat" (curse) in the rest of Jesus. This can increase with your obedience. You can have your gifts added to or taken away for disobedience. I personally believe the gifts are spiritual talents. (Your five-fold ministry gift or calling/ministry is without repentance.) You can walk for years and God will separate you to full time ministry (after preparation) in one of the five-fold ministry offices.

I didn't start the gift of prophecy until the day "after" I stepped out for the first time trying to minister to someone in the Spirit. I was ineffectual, but by the next day, it didn't matter if it was received or not, I got ministered to by giving it, and I live for it now.

One thing I noticed toward the end of the Charismatic outpouring in the late '70s was the "rise" in "programs" that would supposedly help you find your "Spiritual Gift".

Normally they were "personal talent evaluation" programs, which really had NOTHING to do with the "Charisma" (Partially cataloged in 1 Cor 12), and more related to a humanistic "personality analysis".

SInce the "Charisma" aren't "Learned", and are totally independent of our personalities/talents, It's hard for me to see how they could be "taught" since they are NEVER the "Possession" of the Christian manifesting them, and aren't even present at times when they are not being manifested. It WOULD be useful, I think to do some teaching about "responding" to the Holy Spirit's Burden - for those who've never actually recognized it.

When I manifest Prophesy, or Interpretation, the Burden was simply there, and there was nothing to LEARN - simply Speak the words that flow through from the Holy Spirit, and when the flow stops - shut up and sit down.

Personal Ministry Fruit, on the other hand IS something that is related to the Person, and related to the "Fruit of the Spirit" in their lives - i.e. a "Good" tree bearing "Good" fruit.

I'd agree that there's not a LOT of teaching these days about the Charisma (which are increasingly ABSENT in Pentecostal churches as a whole).

SInce the "Charisma" aren't "Learned", and are totally independent of our personalities/talents, It's hard for me to see how they could be "taught" since they are NEVER the "Possession" of the Christian manifesting them, and aren't even present at times when they are not being manifested. It WOULD be useful, I think to do some teaching about "responding" to the Holy Spirit's Burden - for those who've never actually recognized it.

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People can be encouraged by the Holy Spirit to expect them to manifest. They can be encouraged to yield. Apostles and prophets are often used in this way to "father" people in their ministries. It's actually God Himself doing it since we can't do anything on our own.

People develop their own ideas about speaking in tongues and the gifts. The enemy chimes in to make people doubtful or timid. God wants all of His people prophesying and speaking in tongues.

They are definitely not natural abilities!

Having been a Full Gospel believer since 1974, I developed an interest very early with Full Gospel theology particularly as there did not seem to be a consistent and workable model within either the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements.

Even though we hold the high ground theologically in that I am convinced that since the mid 90’s, even though cessationism was removed as a serious form of theology we still do not seem to have developed a clear theology that is consistent with the Word.

Two of the major stumbling blocks that we have placed in front of ourselves has been with the errant ‘Five-fold’ ministry model and with how we have unwittingly confused the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) with the 8 congregational Offices (1Cor 12:27-31).

There have been many so called spiritual gift courses which have caused more harm than good and it has allowed us to confuse natural talents with those graces that the Spirit himself manifests through the individual believer.As you or someone else mentioned earlier, these causes may have allowed the Evangelicals to enter into the playing field but in doing so they have unwittingly removed the Spirit of God from his rightful role in the Gospel.

The following four points are in my view critical to our proper understanding of the Pneumatic nature of the Church:

1. There are only 9 Manifestations of the Spirit and no more.
2. There are 8 congregational Offices.
3. Eph 4 is not ‘another’ list of spiritual gifts but are representative of the five primary personalities.
4. In Romans 12 there is only one Manifestation of the Spirit mentioned, which is prophecy and the other attributes are not Manifestations of the Spirit.

Interesting. As I have studied those passages, I have come away with this concerning them:

1. There are 9 Manifestations of the Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians, but I do not see a cap there. I think the Spirit can manifest in unexpected ways, such as with the sound of a mighty rushing wind....
2. There are 8 ministries listed in 1 Corinthians.
3. In Eph 4 some of the ministries are listed, and the emphasis is upon Christ's "giving" those to the church.
4. In Romans 12 is what I call the personality construct of God; the gifts on this list are said to be distributed by the Father - they are inborn in people. I have done extensive study on this, and if I remember correctly, I posted about it earlier in this thread.. it's been a while....

"we still do not seem to have developed a clear theology that is consistent with the Word."

This is a true statement -

"Two of the major stumbling blocks that we have placed in front of ourselves has been with the errant ‘Five-fold’ ministry model and with how we have unwittingly confused the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) with the 8 congregational Offices (1Cor 12:27-31)."

True - the miraculous "gifts", and the Personal "Calling based" ministry gifts are separate. It appeared the the NON-Full Gospel churches started "seeking gifts" (which were only "natural talents" and not necessarily related to one's Spiritual Ministry) during the '70s - probably as a REACTION to the manifestation of the Gifts in the Charismatic groups.

"The following four points are in my view critical to our proper understanding of the Pneumatic nature of the Church:

There are only 9 Manifestations of the Spirit and no more."

This would NOT be true, and in examining the "list of 9" it's obvious that there are specific gifts, and also Categories of gifts given. There's ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to assume that there are only "9" manifestations - AND 1 Cor 12 isn't even ABOUT the Gifts - only about the proper ATTITUDE of the church to the "gifts".

There are any number of "Gifts", and what they ALL have in common is that they SAY NOTHING WHATSOEVER about the "quality" of the person who is manifesting them. They say NOTHING about his "Spiritual maturity", his "Spiritual knowledge", or even his "salvation". They are GIFTS - temporary empowerments - that display the POWER OF GOD - period.

Christians don't "HAVE" any of 'em, and are only Burdened to manifest them at the Holy Spirit's direction - WHEN, and IF HE wills. Some folks ARE used more regularly in specific giftings than others.

"There are 8 congregational Offices."

This is not true, since the list is a MIXTURE of "ministries" - some of which (Like apostle, or Teacher) is a maturity/Fruit of the Spirit "Calling"/"Office", and "Healings" is a specific temporary empowerment manifested for a specific situation.

"Eph 4 is not ‘another’ list of spiritual gifts but are representative of the five primary personalities."

There are certainly "5 specific area of Ministry" listed, and they'd be classified as "CALLINGS" not "Gifts" in the 1 Cor 12 sense. It's the PERSON who's the Gift" to the Body. But why you'd think they were related to "Personalities" is beyond me. I have the "calling" of a "Teacher", but since I'm NOT a person who likes being around other people, that's a bit of a "Personality contradiction".

"In Romans 12 there is only one Manifestation of the Spirit mentioned, which is prophecy and the other attributes are not Manifestations of the Spirit."

They're ALL "Manifestations of the Spirit", of course, but the only one that's a "Gifting" in the 1 Cor 12 sense would be "Prophesy". But "Callings" are as much "Manifestations of the Work of the Spirit" as the "Gifts are.

We LOVE to "Categorize things", and in the final analysis, it means nothing. What's IMPORTANT is to simply "Walk out" the ministry(s) that HE gives you.

In my Case, I have a calling as a Musician to assist/support in the musical portions of the service, a calling to "Governments" as an elected deacon in the body, and occasionally I still TEACH in the church.

"Gift-wise", I have manifested Prophetic utterance (but I'm not a "prophet") and Interpretation of Tongues (but I'm not an "interpreter").

Actually, the term "gifts" is an unfortunate and probably inaccurate translation. A more accurate rendering would be "abilities" or "tools". The term "gifts" have made it appear that they are optional "toys" for Christians to frivilously play with but not much more. In fact, they are God's tools of trade to enable sinners to know that Jesus is really alive and that the Gospel is really true.

It has also been said by a number of good sound ministries that neglect of God's tools in Christian fellowship and ministry comes from pride. It is the attitude that "we can do it all by ourselves, trusting in our own wisdom and we don't need the supernatural abilties from God any more". It is no wonder with that attitude that churches which ignore the supernatural "tools" that are part of the ministry of the Spirit, are failing and declining.

They ask for the Holy Spirit to move in their meetings, but they ignore the very means by which the Spirit does move, so their prayers are useless and a waste of time.

Sincere people who know they need to depend on God's supernatural power will pray that the Holy Spirit move in their meetings, and then they will open themselves to the nine tools of the Spirit to enable the Spirit to actually move.

Ignorance of God's supernatural tools will cause churches to be dry, dead, barren and lukewarm. The type of churches that God will spew out of His mouth in disgust - that He has provided effective tools for them to use, and because of their stinking ignorant pride, they shortchange their members with cessationist teaching and condemn thousands of souls to hell through a useless ministry based only on man's inadequate wisdom.

talithia (# 75),

There are 9 Manifestations of the Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians, but I do not see a cap there. I think the Spirit can manifest in unexpected ways, such as with the sound of a mighty rushing wind....

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With the sound of a mighty rushing wind this is more correctly referred to as a sign and wonder and probably more of a wonder than anything else.

Without going into too much detail, there is a huge difference between the Manifestations of the Spirit with that of Signs and Wonders.

Bob Caribbio (# 76),

True - the miraculous "gifts", and the Personal "Calling based" ministry gifts are separate. It appeared the the NON-Full Gospel churches started "seeking gifts" (which were only "natural talents" and not necessarily related to one's Spiritual Ministry) during the '70s - probably as a REACTION to the manifestation of the Gifts in the Charismatic groups.

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I think that we are pretty much on the same wavelength here.

This would NOT be true, and in examining the "list of 9" it's obvious that there are specific gifts, and also Categories of gifts given. There's ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to assume that there are only "9" manifestations - AND 1 Cor 12 isn't even ABOUT the Gifts - only about the proper ATTITUDE of the church to the "gifts".

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With 1Co 12 Paul provides us with a highly Trinitarian understanding of the Pneumatic nature of the Church;Paul&#8217;s careful construction of 1Co 12 and later with 13 and 14, shows us in a very clearly manner how the members of the Trinity are each involved in the life of the individual and the Church. With the Manifestations of the Spirit Paul gives us what I believe to be an exhaustive list of how the Spirit works from within the believer:It would be difficult to see how we could add to these MotS unless we were to begin adding in things such as x-ray vision etc. The range of the MotS seems to cover an amazing spectrum of the Spirits power and influence.

"There are 8 congregational Offices."
This is not true, since the list is a MIXTURE of "ministries" - some of which (Like apostle, or Teacher) is a maturity/Fruit of the Spirit "Calling"/"Office", and "Healings" is a specific temporary empowerment manifested for a specific situation.

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I think that we have agreement with your definition in that the apostle and teacher is a not a Manifestation of the Spirit (a.k.a. &#8216;spiritual gift&#8217, as the person/s who are ministering in these roles do so from a position that is based on temperament, disposition, personality and hopefully on a strong foundation built on the Fruit of the Spirit.
When it comes to the 8 Congregational Offices or roles/functions of 1Co 12:26-31, in my view four are similar to that of the apostle and teacher in that they are built essentially on the temperament of the individual and I agree with you that it is the person who is the &#8216;gift&#8217; though I tend to struggle with the phrase spiritual gift. I would define four of the eight Offices as being temperament/disposition based (in bold), the other four are built upon specific individuals operating with either one or more of the Manifestations of the Spirit &#8211; I have listed the appropriate MotS in italics:

There are certainly "5 specific area of Ministry" listed, and they'd be classified as "CALLINGS" not "Gifts" in the 1 Cor 12 sense. It's the PERSON who's the Gift" to the Body. But why you'd think they were related to "Personalities" is beyond me. I have the "calling" of a "Teacher", but since I'm NOT a person who likes being around other people, that's a bit of a "Personality contradiction".

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In my view the common and almost universal understanding of Eph 4 as being a list of &#8216;spiritual gifts&#8217; which stands against Paul&#8217;s list of the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12) has created an environment where many are allowed to say that Paul has created numerous lists and that they are not exhaustive. With reference to your remark about the evangelicals adding in natural talents to the MotS, this &#8216;multiple list&#8217; concept has unwittingly provided the Evangelicals with room to move which has been an unfortunate development &#8211; in essence, they have removed the Spirit and replaced him with human effort and skills.

Having now said this, if I am right and Eph 4 is not a list of &#8216;spiritual gifts&#8217;, then what exactly are they; if they are why would Paul be so sloppy when he has gone to so much trouble in 1Co 12 with how he has described both the MotS and Offices?

I have the "calling" of a "Teacher", but since I'm NOT a person who likes being around other people, that's a bit of a "Personality contradiction".

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From my experience your tendency to be more content with probably close friends and with smaller groups probably makes you an ideal candidate for being a teacher. I appreciate that most congregations will employ someone who usually has a great personality and who is ideally a people person as their senior minister; rarely (but not always) it seems that the true teacher at heart is someone who does not want to be the center of attention or a people pleaser &#8211; we can leave that to the evangelists!!

I tend to see someone who has a teachers heart as being more introspective and who is prepared to present the Word of God as they see it without watering it down to suit those who are merely Christ-followers and not Disciples.

Biblicist said:

I tend to see someone who has a teachers heart as being more introspective and who is prepared to present the Word of God as they see it without watering it down to suit those who are merely Christ-followers and not Disciples.

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I agree with this. Actually, teachers have a tendency to close themselves up and learn and learn (I should know!), but the grace of God is there for them in the teaching, the sharing; this is where they benefit the Body (Romans 12:7).

The people-people are the exhorters..... (Romans 12:8)