Sukkot and Jesus' birth

7steps said:

Yada Yahweh - Book II-Called-Out Assemblies -- Chapter 9-Sukah

Click to expand...

Do you have a website that you go to .. to get the kind of translation this website presents?

According to Edersheim, flocks for the Temple were in the fields year round at Migdal Eder.

And yet Jewish tradition may here prove both illustrative and helpful. That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, was a settled conviction. Equally so, was the belief , that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, 'the tower of the flock.' This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism, on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. The same Mishnaic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover -- that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest. Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak". (Afred Edersheim in The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah, p186-187)

Click to expand...

I am going to take one verse translated by the website you provided. Here is the traditional translation...

Leviticus 23:36 (New International Version)
36 For seven days present offerings made to the LORD by fire, and on the eighth day hold a sacred assembly and present an offering made to the LORD by fire. It is the closing assembly; do no regular work.

Leviticus 23:36 (King James Version)

36Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

And now from the hebrew words themselves according to this website...

Yada Yahweh - Book II-Called-Out Assemblies -- Chapter 9-Sukah

hiw' - Her
'asarsh - joyous assembly of people (participants in festive celebration)
lo' - do not
'asah - do (perform, fashion, create, produce, assign, or profit from)
kol - any
'adodah - of the work (labor, task, job, or duty)
mala'kah - of the heavenly messenger (service of God's representative)

Now help me with this... where is a website that does this kind of translation??. That I may see for myself...

chetermezacha said:

The text which mentions them return right after the snip and cut is in luke 2:39. And you are correct that I didnt address exodus 40 as it does not indicate it is a prophecy concerning the future, one a statue for all generations, a perpetual decree, so in this case for im-anu-el, sukkot takes priority of direction over the exodus verse. I think that sometimes midrashic explainations go too far when they apply meanings to text that clearly is just midrash, often in Talmud, as you know, this is evident. By watch periods I am assuming you mean the periods of the night watch? if this is the case this is in relation to Temple duty, as Yeshua states on many occations so relates to how his disciples act and perform, things they do, after he appears...as he said, I will be coming as a thief in the night, meaning around the 2nd or 3rd watch of the Temple duty.

Maybe you didnt mean the night watch? but in your original post this was never clearly defined (Dont expect you to put entire sermon down though friend). secondly in your original post you wrote:

"The question needs to be asked, is there anything that would indicate a tying in of this important Jewish holiday, the New Year, with a tabernacle. The answer is a clear yes when we look at Exodus 40. From here, we can rightfully infer, and based off of all of the evidence we have that Yeshua was predicted to be born on Aviv 1, and in the end, the prophecies came to pass. Yeshua was born on Aviv 1, 6 B.C., or March 20, 6 B.C."

your connection is to a new year, 1 aviv, to a tabernacle although this is based on the translation of the exodus 40 isnt it? after all, if does not say in the text that a sukkah was constructed but the Mishkan, the tent of meeting and the terminology (and tabernacling connnotatons that come with it) of a 'tabernacle' creates meaning to the text that isnt there when understood as the Mishkan was constructed, because Mishkan, unlike tabernacle, does not indicate a tabernacling with people. I understand the shekinah rested on the mishkan but surely this is the difference between 'meeting with' and 'dwelling with', clearly the birth of the messiah was more the dwelling with than the meeting with, wouldnt you agree?

All in all, I believe it s vital we read all text in the context and try to understand the period of year within the words and actions of people in the narrative. This is an important reason I have suggested to Christians to live a Torah lifestyle so they will automatical know the background when they read the messianic text. It is the same when reading the books of the prophets, they always need to be read in context to the king of the prophet's time and the situation at that time, without understanding the background we can take any verse, teaching, scripture and create something from it. When we read everything concerning the birth of messiah there is no doubt the feelings I have at the close of a year, the coming winter, the final offerings, the advent of yom kippur and sukkot, the smell of lulav the citrius fruit, the season of joy and G-d's closeness to us, all of these things and more come across in the biblical narrative of his birth and this also supports the more logical and logistical interpretation of when he was born, a date that cannot be mistake as we know the priest family of Jochanahs father and we know the time of year that family served in the Temple, these two facts along is enough to work out an accurate time.

Click to expand...

Problem is, Luke 2:39 doesn't seem to occur until AFTER Yeshua's birth, and after EVERYTHING was done according to the Torah (including Pesach). Also see Luke 2 - "22When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed (I.E. the circumcision), Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"[b]), 24and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."[c] " There is no issue here, as they are clearly in Jerusalem by the time of Pesach (besides Sukkot presents the same issue for this scenario with Yom Kippur). Given the size of Israel and that Bethlehem was 5 miles outside of Jerusalem (I've ran that in one day), I don't know why this presents an issue anyways .

No. 2, perfect opportunity for Mary to tell everybody about Yeshua right? We see this done here - "38Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem."

This is after his circumcision.

On Exodus 40, let us read the context. "
Exodus 40

Setting Up the Tabernacle

1 Then the LORD said to Moses: 2 "Set up the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, on the first day of the first month. 3 Place the ark of the Testimony in it and shield the ark with the curtain. 4 Bring in the table and set out what belongs on it. Then bring in the lampstand and set up its lamps. 5 Place the gold altar of incense in front of the ark of the Testimony and put the curtain at the entrance to the tabernacle.

6 "Place the altar of burnt offering in front of the entrance to the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting; 7 place the basin between the Tent of Meeting and the altar and put water in it. 8 Set up the courtyard around it and put the curtain at the entrance to the courtyard.
9 "Take the anointing oil and anoint the tabernacle and everything in it; consecrate it and all its furnishings, and it will be holy. 10 Then anoint the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils; consecrate the altar, and it will be most holy. 11 Anoint the basin and its stand and consecrate them. 12 "Bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water. 13 Then dress Aaron in the sacred garments, anoint him and consecrate him so he may serve me as priest. 14 Bring his sons and dress them in tunics. 15 Anoint them just as you anointed their father, so they may serve me as priests. Their anointing will be to a priesthood that will continue for all generations to come."

????This isn't about the Messiah???? I say this is clearly about the role of Mashiach ben Yosef being fulfilled!

As a brother who loves you in the Lord, I really hate to say this, but I believe you are utilizing a bait and switch tactic . The Sukka may indicate a dwelling that is centered around the Messiah as well. But this dwelling may indicate the permanent wedding...no? Is our God a God of confusion, or does he set up his days in an orderly fashion? Shall we go by the exact timetable of God's appointed times in Leviticus 23? I say we shall. I'm not utilizing midrashic commentary either. As I mentioned 2 Chronicles ties in with Luke. This is a better way to figure this out. The watch periods are mentioned in length by the Mishna. Kind of like Minkah hour, we know thats 3 p.m. because of the Mishna. The Mishna is valuable for either the Tabernacle argument or the 1st of Aviv.

As far as what you imply about the Mishkan and the Sukka, I would say once again, find this in relevance to Yochanan's Gospel. You will be unable to do this, I will assure you . That was the trick. The only thing that is of issue in this case regarding the birth of Yeshua is the word for tabernacled, which matches with dwelt in John. Thats it, nothing more and nothing less. Thats where you're getting confused I believe. You're reading stuff into the Gospel of Yochanan that is not there. And yes, reading in context is good, as Jonathan Cahn did. When I find out the title of the DVD, I will have it for everybody here. Needless to say, on Messianic subjects, Cahn is typically not the source to be questioned.

alilsa said:

O.k, my last post got buried in here. Anybody ever heard of this teachings? "So in at least 7 years from now, I can go to Jerusalem with Jesus and we celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles during the millenium? (Zechariah 14:16 has something about celebrating the feast of Tabernacles). Happy Sukkot and Simchat Torah! Incidently, I heard someone say that the star the wisemen followed were 4 planets the came in line and produced all kinds of signs in the heaven. The wisemen found Jesus when he was about 15 months old, during Hannukkah. The star went away after Hannukah. The king thought the signs in the heaven were for him and thought he was such a great king. The one that did the study said Jesus was born in the sign of Virgo, whenever that was because of Isaiah 7:14 said it was in the sign of the virgin. The man was on t.v last Christmas talking about it. I thought Exodus 40 was when they set up the tabernacle and it was about 2 weeks before Passover. I remember Purim is around March but Sukkot is usually in Sept. or Oct. here in the US., isn't it?

Click to expand...

Yeshua was around 1 1/2 years to 2 years old when the wisemen came to visit him. On "Virgo", I doubt very seriously there should be thought to be any correlation to this . There is no connecting point between Isaiah 7:14 and "the sign of the virgin" (this didn't exist in Jewish thought). Your sources belief is centered around Hellenism. The Jews did not utilize Astrological signs, but rather God's appointed times.

On Exodus 40...no that is incorrect. The 1st of Aviv is the Jewish calendar for the 1st of the year. See Exodus 12. Also on the 15th of Aviv, we have Pesach.

The beautiful thing about the correlation for Yeshua's birthdate being on the 1st of Aviv, is that this would then be the day they were expecting Mashiach ben Yosef to arrive (those who were looking for the Messiah). In the flocks of the shepherds, they went looking for the Passover lamb, and found THE Passover lamb, Yeshua.

If the original Church didn't divulge such information (about the date of Jesus' birth) and it isn't spelled out in the NT, what makes you guys think that seeking hints and mystical clues will get you any closer? Just deal with the fact that Dec 25 is the date that you've received, whether you like it or not. There's absolutely no merit in any of these guessing games.

hamashiachagape said:

Problem is, Luke 2:39 doesn't seem to occur until AFTER Yeshua's birth, and after EVERYTHING was done according to the Torah (including Pesach). Also see Luke 2 - "22When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed (I.E. the circumcision), Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23(as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord"[b]), 24and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons."[c] " There is no issue here, as they are clearly in Jerusalem by the time of Pesach (besides Sukkot presents the same issue for this scenario with Yom Kippur). Given the size of Israel and that Bethlehem was 5 miles outside of Jerusalem (I've ran that in one day), I don't know why this presents an issue anyways .

No. 2, perfect opportunity for Mary to tell everybody about Yeshua right? We see this done here - "38Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem."

This is after his circumcision.

On Exodus 40, let us read the context. "
Exodus 40

Setting Up the Tabernacle

1 Then the LORD said to Moses: 2 "Set up the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, on the first day of the first month. 3 Place the ark of the Testimony in it and shield the ark with the curtain. 4 Bring in the table and set out what belongs on it. Then bring in the lampstand and set up its lamps. 5 Place the gold altar of incense in front of the ark of the Testimony and put the curtain at the entrance to the tabernacle.

6 "Place the altar of burnt offering in front of the entrance to the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting; 7 place the basin between the Tent of Meeting and the altar and put water in it. 8 Set up the courtyard around it and put the curtain at the entrance to the courtyard.
9 "Take the anointing oil and anoint the tabernacle and everything in it; consecrate it and all its furnishings, and it will be holy. 10 Then anoint the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils; consecrate the altar, and it will be most holy. 11 Anoint the basin and its stand and consecrate them. 12 "Bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and wash them with water. 13 Then dress Aaron in the sacred garments, anoint him and consecrate him so he may serve me as priest. 14 Bring his sons and dress them in tunics. 15 Anoint them just as you anointed their father, so they may serve me as priests. Their anointing will be to a priesthood that will continue for all generations to come."

????This isn't about the Messiah???? I say this is clearly about the role of Mashiach ben Yosef being fulfilled!

As a brother who loves you in the Lord, I really hate to say this, but I believe you are utilizing a bait and switch tactic . The Sukka may indicate a dwelling that is centered around the Messiah as well. But this dwelling may indicate the permanent wedding...no? Is our God a God of confusion, or does he set up his days in an orderly fashion? Shall we go by the exact timetable of God's appointed times in Leviticus 23? I say we shall. I'm not utilizing midrashic commentary either. As I mentioned 2 Chronicles ties in with Luke. This is a better way to figure this out. The watch periods are mentioned in length by the Mishna. Kind of like Minkah hour, we know thats 3 p.m. because of the Mishna. The Mishna is valuable for either the Tabernacle argument or the 1st of Aviv.

As far as what you imply about the Mishkan and the Sukka, I would say once again, find this in relevance to Yochanan's Gospel. You will be unable to do this, I will assure you . That was the trick. The only thing that is of issue in this case regarding the birth of Yeshua is the word for tabernacled, which matches with dwelt in John. Thats it, nothing more and nothing less. Thats where you're getting confused I believe. You're reading stuff into the Gospel of Yochanan that is not there. And yes, reading in context is good, as Jonathan Cahn did. When I find out the title of the DVD, I will have it for everybody here. Needless to say, on Messianic subjects, Cahn is typically not the source to be questioned.

Click to expand...

Lots of points here but two i want to address. firstly i am not confused, where you get this from I do not know. In fact its very simple for me and I understand things quite fine, thanks. Secondly when I say you use midrashic explainaitions to the extreme i am not saying you quote midrash but you explain in a midrashic way, for example the gopsel of john is a midrashic explaination of berusheet. Sometimes midrash over takes the plain reading of a text and you have done this with exodus 40, yes those things can relate to messiah (specially his anoiting) but this does not indicate his date of birth. We cannot intellectualise his birth...his birth happened and we have to understand it, we cant package events into our perfect understand as our perfect way, and linear thought of mind is something which is laughable to the boss upstairs. Every single thing mentioned surrounding the birth of yeshua indicates it was during the season of joy, everything. Even the fact he was circumcised on the eight day of the succot, also called the festival of bringing in the water, because until all other times of year the burnt offering was not only with wine but also water, blood and water flooded out of that son of Israel in the hands of Simeon the Great. I can go on and on with the various indications but I think that would be useless in this case as you have your theory and its different from the orthodox which is great and post-modern. All i will say is this, before the messiah was born we could have debated, indeed the rabbi's did, when messiah was to be born, but once he was then who are we to argue? A plain reading of the text is obvious even to a child, only when picking it to bits can you squeeze it together like a jigsaw puzzle with broken pieces. you say, 'all that the Torah required' but take this out of context of the circumcision and apply it to events not even mentioned in the passage. and you, a person of understand, must realise we didtn just stay in Jersualem for pesach but for the omer until shavuot, you are suggesting they stayed in Judea for the entire first part of the year? You say you want order and the boss isnt one of chaos, of cause I am not saying this but you must not use a linear and restricted mindset when understand, I am talking like this as you seemed to want to educate me instead of present a case. I prefer to present a case and not education on how someone should be, but if this is your way I will tell you this, you must not think in linear fashion and to say he was born on 1 aviv, then he fullfilled pesach, shavuot....we are waiting for fulfillment of last festivals, is linear. I am not saying this is wrong, indeed it is right, but out linear mindset must and cannot package G-d into a easy picture of us. I say he was born, and part fulfilled, succot, I also say he only part fulfilled pesach....did he not say over the 4th cup of wine, I shall not take this cup until the coming of my fathers kingdom? Is not shavuot a festival of first fruits, meaning a part of the harvest of the spirit that is to come? indeed, just because one festival is obvious and evident it doesnt mean all is done away with...each is not, each season and each festival must be understood, not just in an intellectual way, nor even a observation way but in a deep customisation and I cannot believe anyone who reas those passages can mistake this, if they practise these times themselves. Its like reading the passages that tell us when Yeshua shouted from the Temple, I am the Light of the World, and not understand this in context to the festival of lights...
I guess we will have to disagree on this subject but I would appriciate you do not be partonising in this by suggesting I am confused as that is far from the point I am, this things I teach and talk about I have been born into understand and are as natural as the sunset each day.

yonah_mishael said:

If the original Church didn't divulge such information (about the date of Jesus' birth) and it isn't spelled out in the NT, what makes you guys think that seeking hints and mystical clues will get you any closer? Just deal with the fact that Dec 25 is the date that you've received, whether you like it or not. There's absolutely no merit in any of these guessing games.

Click to expand...

Think I will ignore this comment, if we believe everything our enemies tell us is true we will still be working for our freedom right? What is worse is when our own brothers use the words of those who hate us.

chetermezacha said:

Think I will ignore this comment, if we believe everything our enemies tell us is true we will still be working for our freedom right? What is worse is when our own brothers use the words of those who hate us.

Click to expand...

Having a hard time understanding exactly what you're talking about. I haven't seen a single thing in this thread to make me think that any of you has a clue about when Jesus was born. All I see is guesses and assumptions.

yonah_mishael said:

If the original Church didn't divulge such information (about the date of Jesus' birth) and it isn't spelled out in the NT, what makes you guys think that seeking hints and mystical clues will get you any closer? Just deal with the fact that Dec 25 is the date that you've received, whether you like it or not. There's absolutely no merit in any of these guessing games.

Click to expand...

Don't think it's a guessing game.
So we're suppose to just say, "oh well guess we have to share a pagan holiday and get on with it?"
Rather lame reasoning I'd say.

In addition to the aforementioned reasoning for making an educated guess that Yeshua was born on Sukkot there is the Daniel that the Messiah's ministry was to last 3 1/2 years. We know when Yeshua died and that he was "about 30" when he started his ministry. Not to hard to count back 6 months from Passover and arrive at Sukkot.

It doesn't really matter when he was born, if it did, then there would be a direct command to celebrate it as such and there is not. So celebrating it at any time is not of importance. The whole Dec 25th thing is just another occasion of people focusing in the wrong direction.

Visionary, shalom
I haven't finished reading this entire thread yet so this answer may be redundant; if so, accept my apologies.
I cannot remember if the NT is included in this software, but for the Tanach, it's quite useable:

It seems I cannot send you a link. If you will contact me, I'll be glad to send it to you (if you even still need one).