vineyard - by the numbers

What a bunch of nana's....

I don't know why that's the case, but I assume it's a precondition they agreed to when first taking the vineyard name.

How big is your church? When I am away from home, I usually look for a Vineyard church (even though my home church is not), and the ones I have been to were all pretty small (less than 100 members in a pretty large towns).

merryheart said:

sure, i guess so - but what an arbitrary and unscriptural method to use

everyplace i can think of in the Bible where men tried to measure the strength of a group of people by the numbers... well God calls it "not faith"

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I wouldn't necessarily call it unscriptural as much as non-scriptural. The Bible doesn't dictate how denominations set themselves up as far as organizational guidelines. They are free to do those things themselves.

But changing a denominational affiliation or the name on the sign out front doesn't impact the blessings God rewards for faithfulness. A church's standing under a denominational banner has no correlation to their standing with God, good or bad.

merryheart said:

well - the non-scriptural part is that the Bible is very clear that you should not place your faith in numbers - that God looks at strength differently... It isnt so much a "how to set up "divisions among you" - i mean denominations as a precept or a running theme.

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A denomination is not God, they have to have organizational guidelines in place or things could easily turn chaotic rather quickly.

Let's face it. If the leadership in your church had a real issue with that denominational membership requirement, then they would have raised issues with it from the beginning, but they didn't seem to do so based on anything I've read from you. So, I have to conclude they agree with the requirement.

It's too late to come back now and say it's not fair when it was once perfectly acceptable.

I'm not trying to be insulting or insensitive about this, by any means. But the way I see it is that your church agreed to this and it's their christian duty to keep their word, even if just for their integrity demonstrated to their congregation.

As time goes on, and if God sees fit to add to your numbers to the point the requirement is met, then perhaps they mey desire to regain their standing with the denomination, or maybe God has another plan for them down the road and this is the way He's bringing it about.

Bottom line for the church is honor your word and do what should be done. Trust God to take you where you need to go.

After reading I Corinthians chapter 1, it is hard to argue that it is important for Christian churches to have brand names to differentiate themselves from other churches.

Ironically, in the 1990's, I went to a small home gathering that faced something similar. A Vineyard church in one city started a church plant in a town as a home group. Another couple was talking with another Vineyard church in another town about starting one in the same city, and the leader in the group I was in gave the work over to them. But later, they could not be a Vineyard becasue they had not gone through the proper procedures for some reason. So they called themselves Vinelife. Many years later, someone else started a Vineyard church in the same city.

merryheart said:

i should also say - that the leadership isn't complaining about the requirement now - just me

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Gotcha. God knows what He's doing, even when we don't have a clue and awfully happy about that.

merryheart said:

sooo, this really anointed little vineyard church that i have been attending for the last three years has just been told that we can no longer call ourselves a vineyard church because we are too small! we can be "friends of the vineyard" but not the real thing.

i am so surprised to find such a method of deciding in a vineyard! if this were mainline denom, i would get it... but ...

we even have to change our name!

i believe that good can come out of this - but i am so disappointed in vineyard!

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How big is your church? My wife and I have been attending a Vineyard church for about 9 months now and it's fairly small... I've had conversations with my pastor though where he's said they don't associate themselves with the 'mainstream' vineyard churches.

Well that's weird. I was a part of a Vineyard church plant in '96 and we only had about 8-15 people for about a year and it grew very slowly -and is now a decent sized church. They never pulled the designation then.

merryheart said:

i dunno... about 30 to 50 adults...

we have 2 pick a new name a good name not already "picked over"

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That's probably roughly the same size as my church. I guess the congregation was double that size a year or so ago, but after my pastor was forced to confront the 'overseer' of the Vineyards here on the west coast because the overseer was in sin, he met with a lot of opposition in the congregation and more or less half of them left.

thWhat a very curious thing.

Well, I'd say look at this as being set free! Your little church can just be itself, pastor and people under the covering of God.

agree with The Lord Is My Banner. This could be an opportunity for your church, and could also be a means of sparing your church from something unforseen down the road.

Just step out with God and see where He takes you!

merryheart said:

sure, i guess so - but what an arbitrary and unscriptural method to use

everyplace i can think of in the Bible where men tried to measure the strength of a group of people by the numbers... well God calls it "not faith"

Click to expand...

I think what the Vineyard may require is a 'quorum'.

A quorum is the minimum number of members of a deliberative assembly (a body that uses parliamentary procedure, such as a legislature) necessary to conduct the business of that group.
Quorum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quorums may have a Biblical precedent. I think Jewish tradition requires a minimum of ten men (representing 10 families) to form a congregation. But I could be wrong about this.

I don't know what the Vineyard's minimum requirement is, but the principle is sensible.

I also think that churches may waive the minimum requirement for the first years to give churches a chance to 'get on their feet'.



peace,
Simon