When is your sin forgiven?

Forgiveness is a gift.  You can have a gift waiting at the post office and never go get it.  Therefore, you don't have it.  We obtain the gift of forgiveness when we repent.  Yes Jesus paid that debt a long time ago but many today do not have forgiveness because they do not want God.  They do not want to turn from their sin.

Acts 2:38 says to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.  Websters New World Dictionary defines remission as forgiveness, pardon.

Receiving forgiveness if a choice.  It is there if you want it but God is not going to shove it down your throat.

I still wonder why Paul always talks about hope and assosiates it with a future event (not sanctification)?

Hey Don, God bless you buddy!

 

It seems we have many points of agreement along the way to our differing conclusions; theology is fun but salvation rests upon Christ - Praise God!

 

On now to a comment for hesmyall, you write "Forgiveness is a gift.  You can have a gift waiting at the post office and never go get it.  Therefore, you don't have it." This logic is flawed; forgiveness is not a gift in the way that you analogise it. Forgiveness is a gift in as much as it is not merited; it is a choice made by the forgiver to freely forgive the one who has offended him/her. Yet genuine forgiveness from one person to another happens regardless of the response of the forgiven. Let me explain. If I offend you, yet you find it in your heart to forgive me, then in your eyes I am forgiven. Whether or not I accept your forgiveness, whether or not I am ever even informed of it, cannot alter the state of forgiveness that you see me in. I am forgiven, and that is that. My knowledge and/or acceptance of your forgiveness of me may affect my quality of life, but no more. Otherwise you are saying to me "I forgive you, but if you don't do this or that, I'll take my forgiveness back", or you are saying, "I will forgive you, if..."  And there is no such thing as conditional forgiveness.

 

Also, Jesus taught us to forgive one another without conditions. "How many times should I forgive my brother? Seven? No, says Jesus, seventy times seven." Yet you suggest the God who tells us to forgive without limits, would Himself forgive only upon merit? Are we to conclude that humanity is greater than God?

 

Blessings, Pete. 

Originally posted by john14_20
On now to a comment for hesmyall, you write "Forgiveness is a gift.  You can have a gift waiting at the post office and never go get it.  Therefore, you don't have it." This logic is flawed; forgiveness is not a gift in the way that you analogise it. Forgiveness is a gift in as much as it is not merited; it is a choice made by the forgiver to freely forgive the one who has offended him/her. Yet genuine forgiveness from one person to another happens regardless of the response of the forgiven. Let me explain. If I offend you, yet you find it in your heart to forgive me, then in your eyes I am forgiven. Whether or not I accept your forgiveness, whether or not I am ever even informed of it, cannot alter the state of forgiveness that you see me in. I am forgiven, and that is that. My knowledge and/or acceptance of your forgiveness of me may affect my quality of life, but no more. Otherwise you are saying to me "I forgive you, but if you don't do this or that, I'll take my forgiveness back", or you are saying, "I will forgive you, if..."  And there is no such thing as conditional forgiveness.

Also, Jesus taught us to forgive one another without conditions. "How many times should I forgive my brother? Seven? No, says Jesus, seventy times seven." Yet you suggest the God who tells us to forgive without limits, would Himself forgive only upon merit? Are we to conclude that humanity is greater than God?

Blessings, Pete.

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Excellent post Pete, excellent.

God bless

Originally posted by john14_20
Hey Don, God bless you buddy!

 

It seems we have many points of agreement along the way to our differing conclusions; theology is fun but salvation rests upon Christ - Praise God!

 

On now to a comment for hesmyall, you write "Forgiveness is a gift.  You can have a gift waiting at the post office and never go get it.  Therefore, you don't have it." This logic is flawed; forgiveness is not a gift in the way that you analogise it. Forgiveness is a gift in as much as it is not merited; it is a choice made by the forgiver to freely forgive the one who has offended him/her. Yet genuine forgiveness from one person to another happens regardless of the response of the forgiven. Let me explain. If I offend you, yet you find it in your heart to forgive me, then in your eyes I am forgiven. Whether or not I accept your forgiveness, whether or not I am ever even informed of it, cannot alter the state of forgiveness that you see me in. I am forgiven, and that is that. My knowledge and/or acceptance of your forgiveness of me may affect my quality of life, but no more. Otherwise you are saying to me "I forgive you, but if you don't do this or that, I'll take my forgiveness back", or you are saying, "I will forgive you, if..."  And there is no such thing as conditional forgiveness.

 

Also, Jesus taught us to forgive one another without conditions. "How many times should I forgive my brother? Seven? No, says Jesus, seventy times seven." Yet you suggest the God who tells us to forgive without limits, would Himself forgive only upon merit? Are we to conclude that humanity is greater than God?

 

Blessings, Pete. 

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1 John 1:9 states that "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Without confessing and forsaking our sins we will have to continue to carry them around.  Only by submitting to God in confessing and forsaking those sins can the blood wash them away.  Forgiveness is a promise.  It is up to us to claim that promise.

Also, it costs human beings nothing to forgive someone else...It cost Jesus His life to forgive us.  Also see Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.  That forgiveness is conditional on whether we obey and forgive others, it is not automatic.

Originally posted by Hesmyall
That forgiveness is conditional on whether we obey and forgive others, it is not automatic.

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Is it conditional when you forgive someone whose sin affects you?

God bless

Originally posted by Reformationist
Is it conditional when you forgive someone whose sin affects you?

God bless

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I live with someone whose sin affects the whole family.  God requires that I forgive him.  If I don't forgive him then I am in no position to ask God to forgive me.

 

Originally posted by Hesmyall
I live with someone whose sin affects the whole family.  God requires that I forgive him.  If I don't forgive him then I am in no position to ask God to forgive me.

 

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That's not what I asked you.  I asked if it is conditional when you forgive someone whose sin affects you?  Do you put conditions on your forgiveness, like "don't ever do that again," or, requiring a certain time of them "feeling bad" before you say, "Well, you've felt bad for a significant length of time so now I forgive you?"

God bless 

Originally posted by Reformationist
That's not what I asked you.  I asked if it is conditional when you forgive someone whose sin affects you?  Do you put conditions on your forgiveness, like "don't ever do that again," or, requiring a certain time of them "feeling bad" before you say, "Well, you've felt bad for a significant length of time so now I forgive you?"

God bless 

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No. God did not say I could do that.  But He did say that unless I forgive others I won't be forgiven.

Originally posted by Hesmyall
No. God did not say I could do that.  But He did say that unless I forgive others I won't be forgiven.

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So God said that you can't put conditions on forgiveness but He will put conditions on forgiveness?  Is this like the whole "Do as I say, not as I do" thing?

Pete, I gotta tell you man.  I am rapidly becoming a fan of your posts and the spirit of love in which they are obviously offered.

Blessings to you man.

God bless,

Don

Hi Don, what can I say? I humbly accept your compliment and warmly thank you for sharing your thoughts with us all.

May God richly bless you, Pete. 

 

Originally posted by Reformationist
So God said that you can't put conditions on forgiveness but He will put conditions on forgiveness?  Is this like the whole "Do as I say, not as I do" thing?

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No, I think this is the He is God and we are not thing.

It may not make us feel good about it but there are conditions to every promise God makes to us. 

Forgiveness of sin is conditional on repentance.  Acts 8:22  Repent therefore of this they wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

This is God's word not mine.  These are God's ideas and not my own.  I did not write the Bible, I am only expected to obey what it says.

Hello Mary - how are you today? I have a question; you say "It may not make us feel good about it but there are conditions to every promise God makes to us. "

How can you say this - is it not clear from the Old and New Testaments alike that God is a covenant God not a contract God. (see my former post) 

The Scriptures, when read as a whole, from cover to cover tell a story of what God has done for you, not what you must do.

God does not put conditions on His promises - He works in our best interests not because of what we have done but in spite of it!

The 'if' statements in Scripture are descriptive and not prescriptive.

While you still seem to be avoiding my questions, you have given me a couple of Scriptures to look at, and I have done this.

Acts 8:22 is a rather unique situation where a sorcerer is trying to purchase the gifts of God in order to further his own 'kingdom', certainly not a prescrition for the how the Christian life works.

The core of Acts 3:19  is "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" We read that at "Stop sinning, accept Christ and then God will forgive you" But clearly that is not what it says. It is an interpretation of the verse, but not what it actually says. I am very happy if you still wish to hold to that view, but I must ask that you admit that what you are believing is an interpretation. That's OK because that is what we all do, I am not saying what you are doing here is wrong.

I however, have a different interpretation of what the verse means. First, 'repent'. This does not mean to stop sinning; the Greek word is metanoeo and it means to change your mind, not your actions. Change your mind about what? Peter was talking to people who had refused to acknowledge that Christ was all sufficient, and were thus hanging on the Pharisaical notion that humanity has something worthy to offer God, and the keeping of the law could earn them salvation. Clearly, to repent means to change your mind of this silly notion.

Next we have 'converted'. The Greek word here is epistrepho and it means to 'turn around'. This is just another way of saying 'repent'. To stress the importance of what he was saying, Peter says the same thing twice using different words, a technique used commonly in Biblical times - he has not laid out a two stage process whereby God will now forgive us.

And finally, "that your sins may be blotted out" The Greek word here is exaleipho and it means to obliterate, to no longer exist. But what sin? The topic matter has not changed mid verse; the sin is the belief that your salvation ultimately depends on you and not on Christ. Thus when you see that Christ does not hand out salvation, but actually is your salvation itself, your 'sin' is obliterated from your life. I see nothing here speaking of a formula to gain forgiveness.

 

Hope this all makes sense, yours in Christ, Pete. 

Originally posted by john14_20
is it not clear from the Old and New Testaments alike that God is a covenant God not a contract God.

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Well said Pete.

God is a covenant keeper and man is a covenant breaker.  Thank God He remains faithful even when we aren't.

God bless,

Don

A covenant is an agreement just as a contract is an agreement.  God does His part and we do our part.

If repentance is not necessary for salvation does that mean that everybody is going to heaven?  Does that mean that God was just joking when He spoke of hell?

If God's promises are not conditional why did Jesus after healing a man tell him to "go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee"?

Originally posted by Hesmyall
A covenant is an agreement just as a contract is an agreement.  God does His part and we do our part.

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No.  A covenant is what a ruler makes.  When a nation would conquer another nation the leader of the conquering nation would establish a covenant.  It wasn't a negotiation.  It wasn't up for discussion.  The leader would say something like, "I will protect you from enemies and you will give me a share of your crops."  It wasn't like the leaders of the respective nations sat down and hashed things out.  I'll give you an example of a covenant:

Genesis 2:16,17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

This was not up for discussion.  God promised to give man dominion over his environment and demanded that man obey his Law.  Man broke that covenant.

Here is another example:

Genesis 12:1-3
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
        "Get out of your country,
        From your family
        And from your father's house,
        To a land that I will show you. 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>I will make you a great nation;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I will bless you
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And make your name great;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And you shall be a blessing.&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>I will bless those who bless you,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And I will curse him who curses you;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

This is what the Lord said would happen.&nbsp; A covenant is&nbsp;something that is established by the ruler.&nbsp; It is not an agreement that is made between two equal parties:

Genesis 17:7-10
And I WILL ESTABLISH My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.&nbsp; Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.&nbsp; This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;

He wasn't asking Abraham if these terms were agreeable.&nbsp; He was telling Abraham how it would be.

If repentance is not necessary for salvation does that mean that everybody is going to heaven?

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No.&nbsp; What is necessary for salvation is that it is ordained by God.&nbsp; He is the one who establishes the covenant.&nbsp; The Bible never says that all will be saved.&nbsp; It's not because God arbitrarily saves everyone.&nbsp; It's because God has not decreed to save everyone.&nbsp; Our repentence is a result of the enlightenment God gives us of what He has done for us.&nbsp; It is not a method to gain His favor.&nbsp; Any sacrifice on the part of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord.&nbsp; Prior to God saving us we are wicked.

If God's promises are not conditional why did Jesus after healing a man tell him to "go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee"?

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There are definite temporal judgments for our sin.&nbsp; If we do not handle our money in a godly way, well, we end up having none of it.&nbsp; If we handle our responsibility as a married person in an ungodly way we suffer the difficulties that arise because of that sin.&nbsp; As you point out, Jesus healed people and then told them to go and sin no more.&nbsp; He was telling them to understand what had been done already and to, now, live understanding what they had been given.&nbsp; Let their behavior represent their understanding of God's grace.

God bless

As long as you accept Jesus Christ as your savior your sins will be forgiven.

Thats the only way it will work because if you have just 1 small sin and you don't have Jesus as your savior you will have to pay for it.
The wages for sin is death,you go straight to hell(become lost).

I'd say N.T. books like John,Matthew and Romans are good.


In Christ,

Hector

Hi Don, very well said.

Here's hoping your day is joyful.

A covenant is a covenant and a contract is a contract - they are NOT NOT NOT the same thing!

Any attempt to make these words mean the same thing is the same as trying to make night and day mean the same thing - it can't be done.

Mary, how are you? I hope things are going well. With reference to your assertion that God is a contract God, you really must come to see that this view is not supported by Scripture but is something that we read into the Scriptures. We do that because that is what we experience in our lives - people engage us contractually. We then do the edxact opposite of what Genesis tells us is the truth; we paint the face of God with our human experience. Rather than a humanity created in the image of God, we have created a God in our image.

I can scarcely imagine anything sadder than this.

Don, you wrote earlier "God is a covenant keeper and man is a covenant breaker.&nbsp; Thank God He remains&nbsp;faithful even when we aren't." All I can say is Praise God and Amen to that brother.

&nbsp;

Don, bless you my brother, and Mary, I am still praying for your situation - may it improve and may&nbsp;you be richly blessed.

Pete.