The difference between a "Heresy hunter" and a "Pharisee hunter"

SavedByGrace3 · Apr 5, 2010

I saw IHOP on the list.
Now please.. heretical pancakes?

probinson · Apr 5, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
With a list like this I noticed 3 Jesus's and I was actually surprised that none of their last names were Christ. :o

But my goodness, even Mother Teresa?

Holy cow! I didn't notice that! But sure enough, I checked, and there is an article entitled "Mother Teresa of Calcuttas Blasphemy: Something Beastly for God"

probinson · Apr 5, 2010

didaskalos said:
I saw IHOP on the list.
Now please.. heretical pancakes?

I think that might be referring to the International House Of Prayer

Wirraway · Apr 5, 2010

"Fun" must be on the list because the author probably believes Jesus never laughed.

Tamara224 · Apr 5, 2010

There is no difference between going around calling everyone you disagree with a pharisee and going around calling everyone you disagree with a heretic.

Thus, the only difference between a Heresy Hunter and a Pharisee Hunter is that one stars with an "h" sound and one starts with an "f" sound.

Both are going around telling us what's wrong with everyone else, spending hours upon hours compiling lists of what makes everyone else wrong and the 'hunter' right.

If every disagreement you get into with someone ends with you calling them a pharisee (or a heretic) there's something wrong. And the something isn't everyone else.

Reminds me of something Jesus said about logs, specks and eyes.

probinson · Apr 5, 2010

Wirraway said:
"Fun" must be on the list because the author probably believes Jesus never laughed.

Actually, "Fun" is mostly some crudely drawn cartoons mocking people.

Wirraway · Apr 5, 2010

probinson said:
Actually, "Fun" is mostly some crudely drawn cartoons mocking people.

some people are too thin-skinned for their own good.

nephilimiyr · Apr 5, 2010

probinson said:
Holy cow! I didn't notice that! But sure enough, I checked, and there is an article entitled "Mother Teresa of Calcuttas Blasphemy: Something Beastly for God"

LOL, "Holy cow", that's a good one.

Yeah I know, I would think even the most anti-Catholic Protestant if they had to pick one Catholic who God would allow in heaven would say Mother Teresa would be that person.

Andy S. Wright · Apr 5, 2010

Wirraway said:
"Fun" must be on the list because the author probably believes Jesus never laughed.

Not sure of that but it sounds like the author of that list puts the "fun" in funeral.

Gxg (G²) · Apr 5, 2010

probinson said:
That’s a lot of scripture, but I hope it illustrates something quite vividly; Jesus NEVER sought out or “hunted” the Pharisees. They ALWAYS were the ones hunting Him.

* Jesus warned VERY STRONGLY against the “yeast of the Pharisees”.
In Matthew 23 and Luke 11, Jesus pronounced multiple “woes” upon the Pharisees. These were some pretty “judgmental” statements against the Pharisees.

* Pharisees are “sons of hell”, and they make their converts “twice the sons of hell”.
Pharisees find comfort in numbers. They seek to make people conform to their opinions and ideas. But Jesus said this;
Matthew 23:15 (NIV)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Not only were the Pharisees “hunting” Jesus, but they were also hunting “converts”.

* The Pharisees concerns were primarily with peripheral, non-essential outward appearances and behaviors.
If you’ll look back at the scriptures I posted earlier, you’ll see that the Pharisees were NEVER concerned with things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. They were concerned with remarkably minor things; Did you wash your hands before you ate? Are you hanging out with the right people? Did you follow the right procedure according to the law to heal someone?

The Pharisees sought to impose their own idea of what the law entailed and their traditions on people. Jesus said;
Matthew 23:4 (NIV)
They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

The Pharisees were constantly imposing rules and regulations on people, and would do NOTHING to help them live up to their man-made expectations. Jesus goes on to say how everything they do is done for men to see. In other words, they want people to acknowledge them and recognize them. They want you to know that they’re better than you.

None of these things carried any real importance. They were simply man-made rules to impose upon other’s freedoms.

* The Pharisees attributed the works of Jesus to Satan.
Matthew 12:24 (NIV)
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

John 9:16 (NIV)
Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath."

John 9:24 (NIV)
A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God," they said. "We know this man is a sinner."

The Pharisees tried to discredit Jesus by saying that He was working by the power of Beelzebub, claiming that He was not from God, and even calling Him a sinner. Incidentally, John 9:16 shows that they conclude Jesus is a sinner because “he does not keep the Sabbath”, and they concluded He did not keep the Sabbath because He had the audacity to restore sight to a blind man on the Sabbath.

But the point remains; The Pharisees clearly sought to quench what Jesus was doing by the power of God by saying that He was doing things by the power of Satan

EXCELLENT POSTING....and many thanks for making it..

Though I agree with everything it is that you are saying, I wanted to mention that I must say I also agree with many of the things others have mentioned with Jesus most likely coming from the school of the Pharisees as well...and hence, why one must be careful when it comes to critiquing everything of the Pharisee Camp--as in many ways, the camp was never meant to be what it had become in Jesus's day.

Some, in all realness, are more so in line with those in the scriptures who were believers/apart of the "Pharisee" school of thought ( Acts 15:4-6 )....as it was with Paul, who was a Pharisee ( Acts 23:5-7 / /Acts 26:4-6 Acts 26 / Philippians 3:4-6 / Philippians 3 /Galatians 1:13-15 ). And if that be the case, I don't have a problem. For not even Jesus nor scripture/Jewish culture condemned those holding to such...as one can be a believer within that system of thought/still trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. There's actually a solid article on the issue one can look up at a ministry known as "Follow The Rabbi"--under the name of "Pharisees or Sadducees" ( )

For even among others supporting Jesus were people for Judaism.... ones like Nicodemus-----IMHO, an excellent example of what a Pharisee ought to have been, ....AS HE WAS genuinely a seeker of truth (John 3:1/John 3:3 ff.), spoke out for justice on behalf of Jesus ( John 7:42 ) , and remained a follower of Jesus even after the disciples had fallen away (John 19:39 ). The other which came to mind would be Joseph of Arimathea, who was rich (Matthew 27:54 ) & a member of the Sanhedrin looking for the kingdom of God (Mark 15:39 ). He was almost certainly a Pharisee, & also did not consent to the decision to do away with Jesus (Luke 23:42 ) .......a disciple of Jesus "secretly, for fear of the Jews" (John 19:39 ) and he made final provisions for the body of Jesus.

Acts 13

After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak...".....2As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.......

6They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God.....Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun." Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. ........12When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

Acts 18:7-9

7Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.

Also, as others have said, its historically the case that many of the things Jesus said were in line with the camp of the Pharisees....and in many ways, Christ was also a Pharisee. On the issue of saying Jesus was a Pharisee in thought, I'd have to wonder how it was the case that Jesus may have either learned from Hillel via word of mouth or went to school with Pharisees to know of him when the Word says that He never studied techincally:

John 7:15
The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"
John 7:14-16 John 7

However, Many people take positions that agree or disagree with certain groups without ever being a formal participant. For instance, I agree with the ideas of the Democratic Socialist parties But my name is not on anything having to do with them...nor do I accept them at all points. Centuries from now, when someone digs up my PC and reads some of my commentaries on a variety of subjects, they might see the commonalities, and make the connection: "Was Easy-G a member of the
Democratic Socialist parties?"

The answer is, technically, "No". But there remains a commonality in the thinking and approach. Similiarly, I believe Yeshua applied the Scriptures in a manner much more similar to Hillel than to either Shammai or the Sadducees. So, my usual answer is that he was likely not officially a Pharisee, but he was definitely of that persuasion.

In the Book entitled King of the Jews by D. Thomas Lancaster, there's a chapter devoted to the idea that, theologically speaking, Jesus was most likely a Pharisee.

According to the book, we usually think of Pharisees as EVIL DUDES (even though Nicodemus was one of the followers of Christ who was good/had His Back, John 3 , John 7:39-59, John 19:38-40 . In general, being associated with the Pharisees is not a good thing . But, says Lancaster, perhaps we have misunderstood exactly what was going on with Jesus and the Pharisees:

Gospel scholars have recently come to the shocking conclusion that not all Pharisees were hypocrites. In fact, the majority of them seemed to be pretty decent fellows! ... The simple point is that Yeshua (not to mention His brother James and His apostle Paul) was, for all practical purposes, a Pharisee. His theology, His hermeneutic, His parables, His argumentation, His conclusions and even His dinner invitations were Pharisaic in origin. While we cannot be overly dogmatic that Yeshua was a Pharisee, there is no other sect or form of faith in all of human history with which He shared a closer affinity. He conducted Himself as if He were one.

At one point, the book goes on to point out that the Pharisees are often with Jesus -- in more ways than one:

The Pharisees themselves were never far from Yeshua theologically or geographically. He was often a dinner guest in their homes, and they were often critics of His ministry. At times, some Pharisees vehemently opposed Him. On other occasions, they cheered Him on while He thwarted the Sadducees or nailed home a point of Torah. On another occasion, the Pharisees are depicted trying to rescue Him from Herod (Luke 13:31).

Indeed, some of the Pharisees were critical of Jesus, but sometimes the questions they ask are simply that -- questions. They were not always trying to trap Him -- sometimes, they were genuinely seeking to know Jesus' theology. And, according to this book and other scholars, much of what we see Jesus do throughout the Gospels is in line with the Pharisaic tradition of the time. Jesus commends the Pharisees for tithing mint, dill and cumin -- something that was not part of biblical law, but was part of Pharisaic tradition (Matthew 23). Many of the parables of Jesus are actually old Pharisaic stories -- sometimes with different endings. Much of Jesus' thoughts on issues were in line with the teachings of the Rabbi Hillel -- a Pharisee.

nephilimiyr · Apr 5, 2010

Tamara224 said:
There is no difference between going around calling everyone you disagree with a pharisee and going around calling everyone you disagree with a heretic.

Thus, the only difference between a Heresy Hunter and a Pharisee Hunter is that one stars with an "h" sound and one starts with an "f" sound.

Both are going around telling us what's wrong with everyone else, spending hours upon hours compiling lists of what makes everyone else wrong and the 'hunter' right.

If every disagreement you get into with someone ends with you calling them a pharisee (or a heretic) there's something wrong. And the something isn't everyone else.

Reminds me of something Jesus said about logs, specks and eyes.

I know, it's a total turn off, at least when people get carried away with it. It would also be different if once the hunter found his target he would use love and kindness in how he deals with them.

Gxg (G²) · Apr 5, 2010

probinson said:
. You see, it wasnt good enough for the Pharisees that Jesus had performed a miracle. we dont even know where he comes from. They needed more. Who is this guy? What gives him the right to disregard the Sabbath?

Then the man gets bold;

John 9:30-33 (NIV)
The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

Essentially, this man is saying that the miracle that Jesus performed in restoring His sight proves that He is from God. He tells them that God doesnt listen to sinners, and that if He werent from God, He could do nothing. Try to tell some people that today, and they'll quickly tell you how false prophets are going to appear to deceive even the very elect if possible.

Even though it had never been heard of before, the miracle confirmed, at least for this guy, that Jesus was from God. This is a very strong and compelling argument. So naturally, the Pharisees disregard it completely, call him a sinner, and toss him out;

John 9:34 (NIV)
To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.

Jesus heard about this, and went and found the man;

John 9:35-39 (NIV)
Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him." Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

So the man believes in Jesus, because of the miracle Jesus performed for him. He then says that those who see will become blind. Interestingly, He says For judgment I have come into this world. So the Pharisees heard Jesus, and they get smart with Him;

John 9:40-41 (NIV)
Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

The Pharisees incessant need to be the set apart ones who are better than everyone else caused them to protest Jesus saying they were blind. So, Jesus basically says, OK. Youre not blind by your own admission, so youre guilty of sin.

So what is the point of all of this? Why have I taken the time to write all this? Because I want you to see how Pharisees work. Theyll claim the thing you experienced is not real, is not of God, is from a sinner. Theyll investigate and interrogate you, and no answer will suffice. Theyre convinced before they start that theyre right and youre wrong. If you disagree with them long enough, theyll call you a sinner and toss you aside.

This same thing happens today. There are people out there hunting for what they perceive to be wrong. They have set themselves up as experts, and theyll try to convince you that you need to listen to them and Give glory to God. But they dont really want you to do that. They want you to concede that what you experienced was not of God, simply because they say its not.

You see, youre not as smart as they are. They know better. Theyre not blind and deceived like you are. So you need to listen to them. You need to make sure that any and all experiences you have with God pass muster with them and meet their explicit approval. If you dont, well then, youre a sinner, just like the guy who healed you.

These are the people that Jesus stood

I think what it is that you're saying may be more so of an issue of corruption within a school of thought as opposed to condemnation of all of those associated with that school of thought. AS IT STANDS, John 7 shows clearly how the Pharisees were divided amongst themselves.....with some believing in Jesus as well/trying to defend Him rather than acting as some of those on a power-trip.

Of course, Jesus does call the Pharisees out quite often. the times Jesus gets angry with the Pharisees is when they elevate tradition above the Scripture (Mark 7, Matthew 15)....... And although Jesus seemed to follow many of the Pharisaic customs, He obviously held the Word of God above the traditions of men. While Jesus may have theologically lined up with many of the teachings of the Pharisees, He never did so to the detriment of the Truth.

Unlike the Pharisees, He did not allow Jewish tradition to be elevated to the same level as Scripture. He was quick to discard any traditions that contradicted the Word of God. He placed compassion above the stringencies of tradition, and He rebuked hypocrisy and pretense whenever He saw it. But He did all of this from within traditional Judaism and as a part of traditional Judaism.

Pharisee History

Also, what Jesus condemned was the prevaling mindset behind many of the "inqusitions" of the Pharisees-----and that was WILLFUL DISBELIEF..

To be technical, considering the full context of the verse
Matthew 16/Matthew 16:2

The Demand for a Sign

1The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

2He replied,[a] "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

The Yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees

5When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread. 6"Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

7They discussed this among themselves and said, "It is because we didn't bring any bread."

8Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Matt 16:12, concerning the teaching /doctrine promoted by the religious leaders (and which the "adulterous generation" was about) was with heart attitudes. Jesus noted elsewhere that the yeast/doctrine of the Pharisees was Hypcorisy---as in acting as if one desired one thing, when in reality another was going down...and one was not sincere in their actions or claims of their motives for things, as noted in Luke 12:1/Luke 12:1-3 / Luke 12.The surrounding context in Matthew 16:1-12 was one where the Pharisees and Sadducees demanded a sign from Heaven in order to test Him

Previously, theyd tried to explain away Jesus other miracles in Matthew 12 as luck, sleight of hand, coincidence, or the use of evil power. For this they were sure would be a feat beyond Jesus power.And although Jesus couldve easily impressed them, He refused because He knew that even a miracle in the sky would not be able to convince them that He was the Messiah

They had already decided in their hearts not to believe in Himdespite all the miracles, fulfilled prophecies, and godly character made evident in Christ alreadya and anything that He did would simply be for no other reason but their appeasement.

With this in mind, one can see that this was the Yeast that He immediately told His disciples to be on the lookout for..Yeast symbolizes evil, and just as only a small amount of yeast is needed to make a batch of bread rise, so the hardheartedness of the religious/political leaders could easily permeate and contaminate the entire society, making it rise up against Jesus if encouraged.

Gxg (G²) · Apr 5, 2010

Easy G (G²);54437973 said:
With this in mind, one can see that this was the Yeast that He immediately told His disciples to be on the lookout for..Yeast symbolizes evil, and just as only a small amount of yeast is needed to make a batch of bread rise, so the hardheartedness of the religious/political leaders could easily permeate and contaminate the entire society, making it rise up against Jesus if encouraged.

The disciples were running this very risk of hardening their hearts so hard that even the most convincing facts and demonstrations of THE POWER OF GOD AND HIS PROVISION BEING MADE APPARENT ALONGSIDE SHOWING HOW IT WAS HIS INTENTION to PROVIDE FOR HIS PEOPLE wouldnt impact them.

They had experienced so many of Jesus miracles, most recent of which was the feeding of the 5,000 people with five loaves and two fish--including other things such as the Lord walking on Water, Being Transfigured and being empowered to do signs/wonders on behalf of the Kingdom of God (Matthew 14:13-32/Matthew 14:24 , Mark 6:35-44, Luke 9:10-12/Luke 9:20, John 6:1- John 6:7),----and even after that, concerning the feeding of many, CHRIST DID IT AGAIN with 4,000 and yet here they doubted whether He could feed another large group too (Matthew 15:4 Matthew 15:32-39, Mark 8:1-10/Mark 8:26 ). For them to say How can this little wrong of disbelief possibly affect anyone? would be tantamount to beginning down the road of what the Pharisees and Herod did so often (Matthew 11:16-19, Mark 15:25-32, Luke 23:6-12, John 19:1-16)

---------

Mark 6
32So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. 33But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. 34When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.

35By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. "This is a remote place," they said, "and it's already very late. 36Send the people away so they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat."

37But he answered, "You give them something to eat."
They said to him, "That would take eight months of a man's wages[a]! Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat?"
38"How many loaves do you have?" he asked. "Go and see."
When they found out, they said, "Fiveand two fish."

39Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. 40So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. 41Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. 42They all ate and were satisfied, 43and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand.

Jesus Walks on the Water

45Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd. 46After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray.

47When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50because they all saw him and were terrified.

Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.

Mark 8/Mark 8:26

Jesus Feeds the Four Thousand

1During those days another large crowd gathered. Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him and said, 2"I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. 3If I send them home hungry, they will collapse on the way, because some of them have come a long distance."

4His disciples answered, "But where in this remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?" 5"How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.

"Seven," they replied.

6He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. When he had taken the seven loaves and given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to set before the people, and they did so. 7They had a few small fish as well; he gave thanks for them also and told the disciples to distribute them. 8The people ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 9About four thousand men were present. And having sent them away, 10he got into the boat with his disciples and went to the region of Dalmanutha.

11The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it." 13Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side.

The Yeast of the Pharisees and Herod

14The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15"Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod."

16They discussed this with one another and said, "It is because we have no bread."
17Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember? 19When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
"Twelve," they replied.

20"And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
They answered, "Seven." 21He said to them, "Do you still not understand?"

__________________

Of course, on the issue of "Yeast of the Pharisees" & unbelief, Jesus actually had to check the disciples many times over for their stubborn refusal to listen.

Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
Mark 16

John 20:31
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Gxg (G²) · Apr 5, 2010

Originally Posted by probinson
This same thing happens today. There are people out there “hunting” for what they perceive to be wrong. They have set themselves up as experts, and they’ll try to convince you that you need to listen to them and “Give glory to God”. But they don’t really want you to do that. They want you to concede that what you experienced was not of God, simply because they say it’s not.

You see, you’re not as smart as they are. They know better. They’re not “blind” and “deceived” like you are. So you need to listen to them. You need to make sure that any and all experiences you have with God pass muster with them and meet their explicit approval. If you don’t, well then, you’re a sinner, just like the guy who healed you.

These are the people that Jesus stood against, and these are the people we should stand against as well. We should “beware the yeast of the Pharisees” and purge it from amongst us. But you don’t have to “hunt” for them. They will find you as you seek after God. And when you dare to respond to them, they’ll say “how dare you lecture us”, call you hypocrites, and worse. They did it to Jesus, so we’d be foolish not to expect it ourselves.

[/quote]

Wanted to say that I think your post rises an interesting point----on what happens when a "Pharisee" comes after another deeming them a "herectic"...for often, Who was in the herectical position in Jesus’s day to begin with? The Pharisees or Jesus? The ones who were considered as holding the knowledge to define what’s orthodox, or the one who made the laws and was the Word of God (John 1:1) itself to begin with to begin with? Think about it, now, cause when Jesus came and talked about a new way to understand God’s law, He wasn’t really saying anything NEW. He was actually trying to bring people back to the original purpose (Matthew 5:17-18). He didn’t speak against the law itself that the Pharisees had set up, but rather the abuses and execeses to which it had been subjected (John 1:17)….

Notice that Jesus didn’t really challenge the orthodoxy of the Pharisees…Usually Jesus did not condemn what the Pharisees taught, but what they were–hyprocrites (Matthew 23:1-12). As a matter of fact, at one point Jesus confirmed a bit of the righteousness of the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20), for they were exacting and scrupulpous in their attempts to follow their laws…..but their righteousness wasn’t complete because they were content with obeying laws outwardly without allowing God to change their hearts……Jesus was saying that His listeners needed a complete kind of righteousness altogether (love and obedience), not just a more intense version of the Pharisees righteousness (i.e. legal compliance, righteousness that comes from what God does in us, not what we can do by ourselves, and righteousness that’s God-centered rather than self-centered,, with reverence for Him rather than approval from people as the goal)…..

When Moses, for example, said “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13), Jesus simply taught that we should not even become angry enough to murder, for then we have committed murder already in our hearts (Matthew 5:21-22)…….The Pharisees read this law and, not having literally murdered anyone, felt righteous…..They read God’s rules for living without trying to understand why He made them…..

Many of the Pharisees, the Real Terrorists/Herectics of their time (Mark 12:38-40) were ignoring God's heart and why there was so much mess going on. But Jesus still gave pause on many of the things they were for rather than destorying it all. If someone has a bad experience with someone but takes that further to say all of what they say was off, that's not an accurate representation......just as it wouldn't be accurate for Paul to act as if everything Jewish about the Judaizers had to be thrown out due to some of the errors they were spreading and how they were connected to Jewish Customs (As Paul was Jewish Himself)....or accurate to say EVERYTHING the Pharisees said was in error since not even Jesus did that. Matthew 23:1-12 says that clearly. The Pharisses were doing many wrong things and promoting many wrong teachings/intrepretations of Scripture……..but despite the extra-biblical traditions and practices, what was Jesus’s Solution? Ignore/not acknowledge what they did that was true becasue of the wrong actions they committed?

No, before denoucing them/calling out what they did bad, what Jesus did was simply warn them to do as they say in the RIGHT THINGS they were teaching but ignore/avoid the wrong applications/styles they were doing them in. (Matthew 23:3-4). He said, “Observe and do all they tell you to do, but do not do accordiing to their works……”

In other words, insofar as it accords with the Word of God/TRUTH, DON’T DISOWN IT BECAUSE OF THE SOURCE (Hyproctical people), but do it.

On the rest of your post, I think what you've said is amazing----especially when studying history and how often it was the case that many were essentially corrupt Pharisees, who messed things up in a myriad of ways. Though as it stands, the main danger isn't in all the things a Pharisee does---like serious study of the Word or PIETY. Rather, the danger can be found in the intentions of one's heart.

For if doing so with a heart born out of wanting more knowledge for it's own sake or to be superior, you'll corrupt that which is good-----just as has been the case throughout the course of history when the scriptures were meant for one thing and yet people, due to their motives/level of darkness, corrupted it. It's still amazing to me to see how the same Bible that discusses slavery (As the Hebrews did own slaves) was taken to justify every act of cruelty done in the New World/Americas during their time of slavery----as the Bible never supported the version of slavery they were for and claimed was "Biblical" (i.e. no chance for gaining freedom, not treating servants with respect and fairness as one would want themselves to be treated, KIDNAPPING/Destroying of families when selling slaves off, etc). And yet, when another with pure motives/right understanding got a hold of the Bible, they saw slavery in a differing light and used the scriptures to speak for the ABOLITIONIST movement to end it. And as a Black Hispanic, that's not said lightly.

For many, regardless of the issue, their motives corrupted how the text was to be seen.............just as has happened multiple times before.

Reminds me much of the movie "The Book of Eli", if you've happened to see it

In the event you've not seen the movie, here's a quick review:

Eli's world is a dry and weary one. There's no water, and he walks through the ash of a jagged place, where men eat men and the sky's torn in two.

Godforsaken, many would call this dystopian earth. But God is not gone, nor forgotten. For Eli carries, along with his gloves and guns and cruel, broad blade, something special. Something sacred.

A book. The Book.

In the age gone by, Bibles were burned by the bushel. They caused the War that tore a hole through the sky, the people said. It's a book of evil, the people said. It must be destroyed—wiped from the face of the earth.

But they didn't burn them all. Eli found one—or it found him—and for the last 31 years he's carried the thing, protecting it by day, reading it by night. He carries it west, always west, where the sun comes down from heaven and seems to set upon the ground.

Eli's not the only one who knows the power of the Book. In the heart of this parched land, a man named Carnegie has built a fiefdom around a precious spring. He's a petty despot with a legion of heavies and a yen for power. And for years he's been looking for the Book—a tool, as he sees it, to unite the weak and feeble-minded, and make him their master.

For in the movie, it was amazing seeing the differing dynamics of how one side wanted to use the Scriptures/TORAH for blessing others...and another, seeing the power of it to control/manipulate others, wanted to use it for evil ends. Eli and Carnegie want the Scriptures for very different reasons. Carnegie recognizes that the Bible can influence people's hearts and minds—a "weapon" to bend people's wills to his own. But Eli believes he is on a mission from God, following the instructions of the "still small voice" within to protect the holy book at all costs and save his devastated world with the divine wisdom it contains....and these differences in philosophy lead to conflict. Indeed, the Word of God/His Torah is a weapon and can be used for either good or evil-----just as it was in the days of Israel when perverting God's Torah/giving a bad witness to the nations of what God/Torah were about ( 1 Samuel 8:2-4 / /Jeremiah 3:20-22 /Habakkuk 1:3-5 / /2 Kings 17:4 )....and just as it was in the days of Christ when the leaders/pharisees took the Torah and perverted it into legalism that killed others because LOVE was not present in them ( Mark 7:10-12/ /Matthew 12:11-13 / /Luke 6:8-10 Luke 6 /Luke 13:15-17 Luke 13 )--with Love being the entire basis/fufillment of the Law. The same thing can be seen clearly when it came to the analogy Christ came in his teaching of the Good Samaritan---for when it comes to the Good Samaratin in Luke 10:29-36,/the issue of responsibility, its interesting that each of the kats who left the man on the road had something “legitmate” they needed to handle—like making it on time to the temple or going to fufill their duties as a Priest and a Levite keeping "Torah". And if they made it to their fellowship/gig in time to do their “responsibility”, cool—–but in the process, other responsibilities were circumvented in the process that may have been greater issues to the Lord... Matters of loving the weighter matters of law like Justice/Mercy and walking humbly rather than just following the outline.

For people who've supported a perverted version of Torah, as a double consequence, they created room for others dismissing the Torah ALTOGEHER or living in continual confusion over it because of how their only experience of it was the perversion they saw supported by others ( Galatians 1:6-8 ). And this is something I've seen often---especially as it relates to what can often be isolation and legalism happening in differing ranks

Luke 11:33-35 /

The Lamp of the Body

33"No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead he puts it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. 34Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. 36Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted, as when the light of a lamp shines on you."Six Woes

37When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised.

39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside the dish [j] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.

42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

Gxg (G²) · Apr 5, 2010

Yekcidmij said:
...........
It's not accurate to equate and stereotype Pharisees with "hypocrite", since not all of them were hypocrites. Many of them were simply pious Jews trying to live out their faith the way they knew how. Many of them, like in the days of Herod's allegiance with Rome, would rather have died than to serve pagan Rome. .

Many thanks for noting what it is that you did---as I agree to a large degree. For me, its interesting to see the many ways in which the Pharisee Camp/Mindset transformed into the things Jesus condemned....much as it is today with many ministries claiming they wanted to address "false teachings/maintain sound doctrine" and yet in the process, they became just as dark/evil as anything they were fighting against in the processs......or, having good intentions, got into trouble when they ignored God's process for dealing with issues. As noted before, there's actually a solid article on the issue one can look up at a ministry known as "Follow The Rabbi"--under the name of "Pharisees or Sadducees" ( )

As said there:

THE ORIGIN OF THE PHARISEES
The Maccabees' struggle against oppression by the Hellenistic Seleucid Greeks was ultimately a triumph of God's people over those who exalted human beings as supreme (167 BC). Among the Maccabees' strongest supporters was a group called the Hasidim, or the "pious ones." These Torah teachers and scholars joined Judah Maccabee and his rebels because the Seleucid authorities had outlawed the study of Torah. The Hasidim are called the "mighty warriors in Israel" in (1) Maccabees. Though noted for their fierceness in battle, ultimately they were devoted to obeying God alone in everything they did.

After the Maccabee victory and the cleansing of the temple, the Maccabees' successors, known by the family name Hasmonaean, soon became as Hellenized as the Greeks they had fought earlier. That presented a problem for these "mighty warriors." Some apparently opted to continue to battle the influence of paganism, whether it belonged to Jews or to pagans such as the Romans, who came in 63 BC. Around the time of Jesus' birth, this rebel group became a formal movement under die leadership of Judah of Gamla. They called themselves the Zealots.

Others decided that violence would not work. They believed that God had allowed (even caused) the foreign oppression because of the failure of his people to obey the Torah. This group believed that one should devote oneself to complete obedience to every detail of law?and to separate oneself from all influences or people that might interfere with that devotion. These Jews took the name "separated" or "the separatists" (perushim)?"Pharisee" in English. They committed themselves totally to God and assumed the responsibility to lead Israel back to him.

THE BELIEFS OF THE PHARISEES
The Torah was of great importance to the Pharisees. It was the focus of every part of their lives. They believed that Moses had given a two-part law: the written law of the Torah itself and additional oral commandments that had been passed through generations to help the faithful understand and apply the written law. The Pharisees continued to interpret and expand the Torah to cover every possible occurrence of unfaithfulness to the written law. This oral law became a complex guide to everyday life often beyond the comprehension of the average person. Yet its intent was to help people understand Torah, much as a creed or catechism is intended to help summarize and interpret the Bible today. It is important to recognize that the word "law" can mean either (or both) of these "Torahs" when used in the Bible. It is often the oral Torah that Jesus criticized, though he kept it in many respects.

The Pharisees had many beliefs in common with Jesus and the New Testament. They believed in the physical resurrection of the dead (the Sadducees did not) and a coming day of judgment followed by reward or punishment. They anticipated the Messiah at any moment. They believed in angels. They recognized a combination of free choice and divine control in human life. They thought of God as all-wise, all-knowing, just, and merciful. They taught that he loved his people, calling them to a life of obedience. The Pharisees believed that everyone had the power to choose good or evil, and die Torah must be his or her guide.

Because their lives revolved around the study of the Torah, the Pharisees made the synagogue their community center, though they supported the Temple as well. There were more than 6,000 Pharisees by Jesus' time, and they were the dominant influence on the people's spiritual lives. The "yoke of Torah" (or method of obeying) taught by the Pharisees was a heavy burden, sometimes obscuring the very law they sought to obey. The Pharisees desired to raise the spiritual character of the Jewish people to help them draw nearer to God (Ps. 73:28, 34:18; see also James 4:8 for a New Testament expression of the same idea).

HYPOCRITES AMONG THE PHARISEES
Most of the Pharisees were godly men who tried to be totally devoted to God in a hostile world without resorting to the violence of the Zealots. They were greatly persecuted by the Hasmonaeans and Herods, and they disagreed strongly with the Sadduccees, whose theology and Hellenistic lifestyle conflicted with the Pharisees' desire to submit totally to God.

Among the Pharisees, not all were godly and righteous. Though they set high moral standards, not all of them measured up. The Misnah, the written record of their oral law, contains many criticisms of the "sore spots" among them who were "plagues of the Pharisaic party" (Mishnah Sot. 3:4, 22b). Some were so zealous for their oral interpretations that they violated the very letter of Torah. Others were so focused on obedience that they did not notice or care about the needs of those around them (a problem still significant in many churches today). This overemphasis on tiny details of obedience, particularly to human tradition, at the expense of the care and concern for others that the Torah itself demanded (Deut. 10:19) was harshly condemned by the truly faithful among the Pharisees.

It is quite unfortunate, then, that history perceives this group as hypocrites and stubborn uncaring religious fanatics who rejected Jesus. Though it is unlikely this view will ever change, it is important to note both Jesus' strong condemnation of certain Pharisees and the specific application of that condemnation. Jesus never criticized anyone for being a Pharisee. He criticized "hypocritical Pharisees" (Matt. 23) and those who were "leaven" among the Pharisees and spoiled the whole group (Matt. 16:6,11). Jesus instructed his followers to obey what the Pharisees taught (Matt. 23:2?3) but not to practice their hypocrisy (Matt. 23:3?7). Many Pharisees supported Jesus, frequently inviting him to their homes (Luke 7:36, 14:1, 11:34) and even warning him that Herod wanted him killed (Luke 13:31). Some were not far from the kingdom of God (Mark 12:34) and others entered it as Pharisees (Acts 15:5). Paul spoke and wrote proudly that he is, not was, a Pharisee (Acts 23:6; Phil. 3:5).

This should not be interpreted as defending those who rejected and hated Jesus or worked for his arrest and conviction. Nor does it deny that Jesus strongly condemned the hypocritical Pharisees (most references to them make this point). It is intended to say that Jesus pointed out sin, especially hypocrisy, wherever he found it.

On the issue, there's a bit of irony in that in many ways, what the Pharisees condemned in Jesus was the very things THEY SHOULD have known about and were meant to be.....and the people today condeming the Pharisees in the name of being for Jesus forget that Jesus never disliked them fully either.

Its not enough to condemn a group if one will not show how that group came into being...and as it stands, I'm amazed at how much the concept of Hasidim (called "The Pious Ones")---of which the Pharisees were a branch of---had so many factors going into it. It all started with the desire of total resisting of Outsiders. The idea of "warrior priests" were in much favor---much like 2 Chronicles 23:1-3 / when there was a revolt to usurp the throne back from the false queen/daughter of Jezebel.

Again, the Pharisees began with a simple desire to resist assimilation/avoid doing many of the things that got them in trouble to begin with. But in their zeal, they became legalistic---making additions to the things God asked as a "just in case" policy...and as a result, got themselves into trouble....just as many do today.

As it stands, its a bit perplexing that so many condemn the Pharisees and forget the many ways in which we ourselves are like them----and for another twist, as messed up as many of the Pharisses were, there were MANY groups against them that were doing just as much damage....and forgetting how they themselves were all connected. In example, the Pharisees were actually a sister group to the ZEALOTS....terrorists in Israel and ones for Jewish Nationalism.

One of the ministries I frequent has more information on the issue that may help you, concerning your questions---as one can go online/look up a ministry known as "Follow The Rabbi: Zealots"( ) and "Follow The Rabbi: Sons of Light"( )..as they're dedicated for showing the scriptures through how 1st century Judaism would have understood it:

On the issue, its intriguing that you have one sister group going in one direction---condeming the other for the direction they're going in...and yet unable to see how they're the same, as Jesus condemned them as well when it came to many of their actions toward Roman Oppression...and went counter to their thoughts of retaliation when it came to his views on loving your enemies---and made enemies with them when His views didn't line up.

All of this seems to mirror what goes on today...especially in the rise of many "Counter-Heresy Hunter" MINISTRIES that are tired of many of the actions of others condeming the Body of Christ on Non-Essential issues...or having a "the ends justify the means" mindset when it comes to dealing with error (i.e. ungraciousness, boastful, overbearing, etc)/overidding many of the ways in which God said we were to deal with problems. But in the process, they do the same things they condemn in others condeming. The same can happen with groups that are very much against many of the "discernment ministries" today and "counter-heresy hunting" sites today----saying they're better because they focus on other issues. Some on Christians being for Social Justice, others for addressing Creationism vs Evolution, and many other things...but in their hearts, they're often corrupt since they're doing things in many wrong ways as well---or just incomplete for being so one-sided. All of the groups around are in "civil war", thinking they are all on the right side of the WAR.....and when Jesus is shown to both groups, often they ALL get ticked off.

That's what happened when all of the groups normally hating each other----from the Pharisees to the Herodians and Saducees--got together to find out how to Kill Jesus since they had a common enemy. And the Zealots, when they found out they could not control Him, got involved too. Its amazing....

JimfromOhio · Apr 5, 2010

Let's call this forum a place where discernment is discouraged and should be outlawed.

AudioArtist · Apr 5, 2010

JimfromOhio said:
Let's call this forum a place where discernment is discouraged and should be outlawed.

Sir, I rarely see that happening. Some posters' attempts at discernment are indeed argued with at times, but the very fact that those arguing with the discerners put some effort into their responses shows that it isn't being discouraged and outlawed, but rather challenged - which is always a good thing.

JimfromOhio · Apr 5, 2010

AudioArtist said:
Sir, I rarely see that happening. Some posters' attempts at discernment are indeed argued with at times, but the very fact that those arguing with the discerners put some effort into their responses shows that it isn't being discouraged and outlawed, but rather challenged - which is always a good thing.

Everytime there's one, discerners would be called certain names for causing "strife". No one cares to see different views and they rather not anyone to know those views.

AudioArtist · Apr 5, 2010

JimfromOhio said:
Everytime there's one, discerners would be called certain names for causing "strife". No one cares to see different views and they rather not anyone to know those views.

I think different views are very interesting. It only gets annoying when these different views are expressed in a sarcastic, cynical, jaded way and involve generalizing (or demonizing) entire groups of people (in the case of this forum, charismatics/pentecostals.)

Incidentally, I've never seen you do this.

Thus, even if I may perhaps disagree with your approach to the more supernatural Gifts/manifestations of the Spirit and how necessary they are for the Church today, I still think you are a highly valuable contributor to this forum.

Faulty · Apr 5, 2010

This place has no heresy-hunters.

Would you call a man who wakes up every morning to a deer standing on his front porch, with a big 'SHOOT ME' sign around its neck, a deer-hunter?

Same idea.

The difference between a "Heresy hunter" and a "Pharisee hunter"

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

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I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

Hiding In Plain Sight

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

I've Been Keepin My Eyes Wide Open

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Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

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Life of Trials :)

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