I'm praying for you Todd Bentley....

probinson

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Jesus is the one who said a kingdom divided against itself will not stand. The context for that staement was a response to being accused casting otu demons by the power of the devil. Notice Jesus' response was not merely to point out that he was not from the devil. He also corrected their false unbiblical teaching that the devil casts out the devil.

:thumbsup:

As for healings or signs and wonders , those can be false at times. Pharoahs magicians are one example.

I'm with you on the signs and wonders. That is what 2 Thessalonians 2:9 says. But I see no Scriptural basis for a "false healing", and certainly not for a healing performed by Satan.

:cool:
 
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probinson

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Scripture gives us a pretty clear picture that Jesus was a modest man, with zeal for truth, he did not live a exorbitant lavish lifestyle, he was honest, he did not draw attention to Himself He drew attention to God.

This is partially true, and partially false.

In another thread, I talked about Lazarus. Picture it; Here is Jesus, standing in the middle of a town where Lazarus has died and is lying in a tomb. People are everywhere. They know Lazarus is dead and in the tomb. And what does Jesus do? He proclaims with a LOUD voice, "Lazarus, come forth!" in the midst of all of that.

Now you can try to convince yourself that this did not draw attention to Jesus all you want, but just try to picture it, and just imagine how much attention this garnered. In fact, it drew so much attention to Himself that this was the one miraculous act that caused the Pharisees to begin to plot to kill Jesus (John 11:53).

Christians are Christ's ambassadors that means that we are to represent Him and His holiness as accurately as we can in speech, behavior, appearance and attitude. Over and over we are commande to imitate God, be pure, be holy, don'be like the world and be righteous.

This is also true. How do we "re-present" Jesus to the world? It's a question we should all ask ourselves often.

Jesus said;
John 3:17 (NIV)
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
He also said;
John 13:34 (NIV)
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Those are strong words. "As I have Loved you". How has Jesus Loved us?
John 15:13 (NIV)
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Jesus demonstrated His Love by laying down His life for his friends. Are we willing to lay down our lives for those people we criticize? If the answer is no, then we are doing a poor job of "re-presenting" Christ. And before anyone comes in with a super-witty, "You're one to talk" response, I'm talking about myself just as much as anyone else here.

These people do reach millions, but do they represent the Gospel and Jesus accurately? Sadly the answer is no.

But see, the thing is, why are you so worried about how others are representing Jesus? Shouldn't you be more concerned with how you are representing Jesus?

Jesus did not live in a palace and did not wear expensive jewelry.

True. But He did wear a seamless robe. That people fought over. And people regularly gave Him money. And He needed a treasurer.

He did not abandon his wife and children.

He did not have a wife or children, but if He would have, I agree that He would not have abandoned them.

He did not do the hokey pokey in the temple and He corrected those who were irreverent in the temple.

Well, the hokey pokey wasn't exactly around in Jesus' time, so I'm not sure that's a valid point.

Also, the people He corrected in the temple were the people that were trying to buy and sell doves for sacrifice in the temple. This had little to do with them being "irreverent" as subjectively implied in your post, and everything to do with the fact that these people thought they could just come into the temple and buy a dove to sacrifice to make things cool. They felt no need to bring their best to God, and tried to substitute an ill-gotten dove from the people in the temple. This is why Jesus overturned their tables and drove them out of the temple.

He did not sell His revelations from God, He had faith God would care for Him.

Very true. We should as well. Freely you have received, freely give.

Jesus did not facilitate adulterers and help them in a divorce and then their marriage, he called them to repentance.

Also true. I think people nowadays give up way too quickly and easily on their marriages. I do, however, believe that the grace of God is available to everyone.

Jesus did not falsely prophesy or advertise those who did.

No, but He chose some very imperfect people. Let me say that again; He chose some very imperfect people, one who even went as far as to betray Him. One who denied Him. Men who didn't even intially recognize Him when He rose from the dead. Men whom He regularly corrected and admonished for their "little" faith. These are the guys Jesus chose.

I think we need to use the strictest possible standards in understanding who Jesus is and how holy, holy, holy He is and then we will begin to understand where criticism comes from.

I think we need to start by realizing that the vast majority of what today's "discernment" ministries get all fired up about and "criticize" is peripheral and non-essential. Then we will begin to understand why the criticism is misplaced.

:cool:
 
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Dash Riprock

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:thumbsup:



I'm with you on the signs and wonders. That is what 2 Thessalonians 2:9 says. But I see no Scriptural basis for a "false healing", and certainly not for a healing performed by Satan.

:cool:
So Mr Bentley is not of a very similar denomination,or certainly your belief system,or camp?
 
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Simon Peter

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The context is really unimportant. The question is simple;

Do you believe there are "demonic healings"?

I do not, because I see nothing in scripture to support such an idea.

Pete,

I've made no mention of "demonic healings" in this thread and I don't see the relevance; and as you haven't answered my question, why should I answer yours?

If you want to answer my question, here it is again:

Are you saying that miracles are what matter, and it doesn't matter through who, or how they come about?

Because there's plenty of people who use occultic powers to bring about the supernatural; I'm sure they would love an invitation to your church if it makes no difference to you...


peace,
Simon
 
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KingZzub

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Come on Simon, you are not even comparing like with like here.

I have had a sorcerer come to my church to attempt to heal the sick. I booted him. He told me I was intolerant, and that he had as much right to be in the hall as I did. I told him that I put the advert in the paper and that I paid for the hall, so that was rubbish and that if he wanted to hire a hall I wouldn't be in the hall pestering him for a platform.

He then tried to curse me. I just laughed as he told me I would go blind.

You are trying to paint people like Pete and myself as being utterly lacking discernment just because we:

1. do not believe that anyone's ministry is discernment. your ministry to to build, encourage, comfort and increase the body. Now, as you do that there are times that you need to correct and train someone but just having a website or ministry where all you do is correct other people is not Biblical and not Christ like.

2. believe that many people are using the word discernment as a convenient cover for their envy and bitterness at many ministries. When someone spends 25 hours watching a TV show of a TV minister and does not focus on the many, many, many encouraging teachings and ministry but deliberately pulls one sentence out of context for the purpose of misrepresenting that ministry then they are wrong. They are out of order.

3. Believe that we should hold onto the good. If someone teaches 90% good and 10% wrong, I should go away and hold onto the good. That is Bible!

4. Believe that humility dictates that we are prepared to be wrong. If I listen to Benny Hinn and disagree with 20% of what he said, how do I know I am not wrong. How do I know my interpretation is not wrong.

5. Believe that so many peripheral issues are not a matter for discernment ministries.

Just because we believe that you are trying to wrongly paint us as being open to occultics minister in our meetings. Grow up.

Either you sincerely believe that we are open to the occultics to minister in our meetings (and I mean genuine occultics, not some minister you CALL occultic) and then you cannot read or you know fine well that this is not the case and you are bringing it up, if so then I cannot even guess at your motives for doing that but they cannot be noble.
 
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probinson

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I've made no mention of "demonic healings" in this thread and I don't see the relevance; and as you haven't answered my question, why should I answer yours?

Of course you don't see the relevance. It's damaging to your position, so it's not important. I get it.

If you want to answer my question, here it is again:

Are you saying that miracles are what matter, and it doesn't matter through who, or how they come about?

No. That's not what I'm saying at all.

When the blind man was healed, the first thing the Pharisees said was that Jesus was a sinner. Doesn't that at least give you pause? The very first thing the Pharisees did in response to a miraculous, never-before-seen act of God was to accuse Jesus of being a sinner. Sound familiar?

The man healed however, reasoned that if Jesus was not from God, He could not have performed his healing;
John 9:30-33 (NIV)
The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."
Now according to your beliefs, you would likely stop this guy and ask him the same question you asked me; "Are you saying that miracles are what matter, and it doesn't matter through who, or how they come about?"

But Jesus didn't respond that way. At all. Instead, he called the Pharisees "blind", and proclaimed them as being "guilty of sin".

See, if this really was the big deal you're trying to make it, Jesus might have said something like, "Just because I performed this miracle, you shouldn't be convinced by it. You know, there are lots of people in the occult who could do the same thing. They would love to do the same to deceive you."

But He didn't say that at all, did He? Of course not. That's what some people would have you to believe though; be wary of everything all the time. Even if you're healed, or your eyes are physically opened, it doesn't prove a thing. The man doing this may be a sinner!

:cool:
 
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Simon Peter

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You are trying to paint people like Pete and myself as being utterly lacking discernment just because we:

1. do not believe that anyone's ministry is discernment. your ministry to to build, encourage, comfort and increase the body. Now, as you do that there are times that you need to correct and train someone but just having a website or ministry where all you do is correct other people is not Biblical and not Christ like.

2. believe that many people are using the word discernment as a convenient cover for their envy and bitterness at many ministries. When someone spends 25 hours watching a TV show of a TV minister and does not focus on the many, many, many encouraging teachings and ministry but deliberately pulls one sentence out of context for the purpose of misrepresenting that ministry then they are wrong. They are out of order.

3. Believe that we should hold onto the good. If someone teaches 90% good and 10% wrong, I should go away and hold onto the good. That is Bible!

4. Believe that humility dictates that we are prepared to be wrong. If I listen to Benny Hinn and disagree with 20% of what he said, how do I know I am not wrong. How do I know my interpretation is not wrong.

5. Believe that so many peripheral issues are not a matter for discernment ministries.

Wow! You have put an awful lot of words in my mouth.

For the record, I've not said any of the above.

If anyone wants to know what I'm trying to say, please read my posts, not KingZzub's. :D



When the blind man was healed, the first thing the Pharisees said was that Jesus was a sinner. Doesn't that at least give you pause? The very first thing the Pharisees did in response to a miraculous, never-before-seen act of God was to accuse Jesus of being a sinner. Sound familiar?


No, not at all !

Please show me where I've accused Jesus of being a sinner. Because that is a very serious accusation indeed.



Simon
 
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Simon Peter

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So Simon, you didn't ask whether we would let anyone come and minister in our church?


WhatI asked was this:


Are you saying that miracles are what matter, and it doesn't matter through who, or how they come about?

Because there's plenty of people who use occultic powers to bring about the supernatural; I'm sure they would love an invitation to your church if it makes no difference to you...


My point was just a reminder that the scriptures mention many examples of false prophecy, false miracles, false signs and wonders. And therefore just because something supernatural may have happened in church, doesn't automatically mean the Holy Spirit is responsible.

Some appear to be saying that it's a sin to even question the source of something supernatural.


peace,
Simon


 
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KingZzub

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So you cannot see in what you said an implication that we would be willing to let people from the occult minister in our churches?

Someone thought I was being derogatory for using the second person feminine pronoun earlier today and you don't think that accusing us of using the occultic in our churches because we "just don't care" is in any way a problem?

Go figure.
 
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JimB

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He is Charasmatic. He is a born again Christian. So yes and yes.

Well, I am a Christian but this may explain why I no longer want to be called a Charismatic (and maybe why some do not want to be a Christian).


Oops, I stumbled into a Bentley thread again. s'long.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13
 
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Yitzchak

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Well, I am a Christian but this may explain why I no longer want to be called a Charismatic (and maybe why some do not want to be a Christian).


Oops, I stumbled into a Bentley forum again.

~Jim

Mercy triumphs over judgment. ~James 2.13

You may choose to identify yourself anyway that you like. It is difficult for me to go and spend time with my jewish relatives and bring up being a Christian when we all have memories of Christians throwing rocks at us on our way to synagoge and calling us- blank blank- jesus killers....Crusades, inquisition. But at the end of the day. I am not ashamed of the gospel and I know that the real issues are deeper than bad representatives of the faith.
 
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probinson

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No, not at all !

Please show me where I've accused Jesus of being a sinner. Because that is a very serious accusation indeed.

Oh brother. :doh:

Did I say you accused Jesus of being a sinner? No, I did not. Please drop the hyped up histrionics. Thanks.

What you are doing, however, is responding in much the same way as the Pharisees did.

:cool:
 
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Gregory Thompson

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You know .. i know that God knows those who are His . and no matter how much someone posting on the internet seems to be one of the tares masquerading as one of the wheat . there are no words . God knows what He's doing .. all i can do is .. :prayer:

:prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer:
 
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Simon Peter

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So you cannot see in what you said an implication that we would be willing to let people from the occult minister in our churches?

Ben, you read something into what I said, that just wasn't there. I apologise if my post wasn't clear.

What I was saying is that of course you wouldn't let people minister occult in your church (somehow the opposite of what you read!).
With that in mind, and the common Biblical references to false sign, wonders and miracles, shouldn't we be cautious about accepting every apparent supernatural incident as from God?

Some think it's wrong to question the supernatural. In light of scripture that's not prudent.



When the blind man was healed, the first thing the Pharisees said was that Jesus was a sinner. Doesn't that at least give you pause? The very first thing the Pharisees did in response to a miraculous, never-before-seen act of God was to accuse Jesus of being a sinner. Sound familiar?
...


Did I say you accused Jesus of being a sinner? No, I did not. Please drop the hyped up histrionics. Thanks.

What you are doing, however, is responding in much the same way as the Pharisees did.

Pete, you're basically accusing me of being a Pharisee. So I don't see how my response is "hyped up histronics", if anything it's a remarkably reserved response.

You don't see the irony? You're one of the biggest complainers when Christians dare to criticise other Christians, but somehow that doesn't stop you of accusing people of being Pharisees!
 
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Dash Riprock

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Oh brother. :doh:

Did I say you accused Jesus of being a sinner? No, I did not. Please drop the hyped up histrionics. Thanks.

What you are doing, however, is responding in much the same way as the Pharisees did.

:cool:
Would you say that most in the Mr bentley crowd,are similar in belief to yours?

I am trying my best to get a straight answer from you,
 
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