tongues...

zeke37

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I think the text clearly says that "tongues" were when a christian was speaking in greek or aramaic, or hebrew or latin or whatever and imagine a person from India was standing in the crowd and that person heard the christian speaking in Hindi...

Acts 2:3-11 KJV
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[6] Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[7] And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[11] Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

This doesn't describe what is seen today in pentacostal churches.
I could not agree with you more...

and 1Cor14 does not give license for what we see in those churches today either...we go to 1Cor12 first, to see what it means...diverse kinds of langauges....those of the world, to spread the Good News into.


if God wants to talk to you through a person's vocal cords, like Acts2, then you'll for sure understand it...

and those in Acts2 all understood the words in their own dialect...

the ones that mocked, did not agree...and obviously did not know that it was GOD speaking through them, (the Cloven tongues of fire).....
but they heard the message in their own dialect.....
 
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NorrinRadd

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for those who have been around public displays of toungues what has been spoken? Was there an interpretor?

It depends. Pentecostals traditionally believe there are basically two different "versions" of tongues -- one for prayer and praise, one for delivering words from God. (I don't share this view.) Supposedly the 1 Cor. 14 "rules" -- take turns, each must be interpreted, no more than three total -- apply only to the messages.
 
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NorrinRadd

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but again what is being said? You hear it every Sunday in an AOG, if people are actually speaking in tounges and Paul tells us that it needs to be interpretated.

So what is usuallly being spoken? Who is the interpretor, the Pastor? a layman?

The AG generally believes in two versions of tongues. "Message" tongues are interpreted -- by whomever the Spirit moves and gifts to interpret. "Prayer language" tongues are generally not interpreted.
 
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NorrinRadd

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I do agree that tounges still exist today. But what I also do believe that what is going on in Pentacostal rings are more of a self induced hysteria and learned behavior.

Clearly we have not attended the same Pentecostal churches. :)

I've attended or visited (multiple times) at least half a dozen churches where tongues-speaking was practiced. Even in the ones where things like "laughing in the Spirit" and getting "drunk in the Spirit" were encouraged, the tongues-speaking was generally not any sort of emotional frenzy.



If not then there is major abuse of the gifts. The gifts of speaking in toungues is not meant to be some sort of ID badge or Proof that you have the Holy Spirit...

I do have problems with the "initial physical evidence" doctrine. However, since most Pentecostals believe in a "second work of grace," they believe that tongues-speaking indicates the presence of the Spirit in the baptizing-and-empowering-for-service sense, not in the regenerating sense; one can "have" the Spirit, but not be "baptized in" the Spirit, they believe.

Unfortunately, the authors of Scripture did not use terms with precise consistency, and so one can easily get the impression that Luke (in Acts) wishes to convey the idea that it is appropriate to look for some kind of "inspired utterance" -- tongues and/or prophecy -- as evidence that a person has the Spirit at all.


but to so we can edify each other. And Paul even said not everyone will have the Gift.

Yes, one verse sort of sounds that way, while others sound very much like anyone can choose to speak in tongues.


But certaintly not so people can run around but no one, not a single person is being interpreted.



18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

And yet in all three instances in Acts, believers were gathered together, many spoke in tongues, there was no indication they took turns, and no indication anyone interpreted (unless "prophesied" in Acts 19 is Luke's way of saying "interpreted").

The Corinthian "rules" were not always followed, and Luke gives zero indication the disciples were "out of order" or (in your words) committing a "major abuse of the gifts" in the cases in Acts.
 
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sunlover1

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The reason for the gifts is the edification of the church or the COMMON GOOD. NOT to establish the apostles as the authority of the church. Contextually that holds NO water and jives not ONE BIT with Paul's teaching on the subject.
:wave:


Do u kno the linguistic history of the term that Paul CHOOSE to use? K, charis is the Greek word for GRACE right? Quite a forensic and theological term, ripe with meaning in HEAVY in concept thru out the NT. The GIFTS are CHARISmata . . . or GRACE GIFTS. ABSOLUTELY they are means of grace.
Interesting, thank you MTK.

I am sorry brother but My God is not the God of the science lab and beekers. To the contrary, and in firm opposition to your assertions about subjective reality, John states quite clearly:

1 John 1:1-4
what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- 3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
NASU

Here we have the SHEER FACT of John's experience as the BASIS for his writing what he does! and what is the outcome at the end? JOY . . . and EMOTION. Jesus was not a stoic on prozac! And we are not to be either.

The FACT is that w/o experience . . . any "objective" concepts that you have are meer motions in a class room. I KNOW My Jesus brother . . . PERSONALLY and EXPERIENTIALLY. Apart from the experience of one personally with Jesus the cross is MEANINGLESS. It is the EXPERIENTIAL REALITY of the atonement which makes one one with the covenant people of God.

cheers
[/QUOTE]
Way to bless the entire room MTK!!

:clap::amen::thumbsup:
 
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SummaScriptura

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I speak in tongues. I don't need to convince anyone, nor do I wish to. I don't speak in tongues to prove anything to others nor myself. I have been over all the scriptures countless times. There is not enough in the text to prove the point either way.

So, until the day of judgment, I'll leave you to yourselves.

This tongue-speaking, chiliast, dunker is outta here!
 
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sunlover1

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I speak in tongues. I don't need to convince anyone, nor do I wish to. I don't speak in tongues to prove anything to others nor myself. I have been over all the scriptures countless times. There is not enough in the text to prove a point one way or another. So, until the day of judgment...
I can relate to that SS.
As a tongue speaker myself, I studied
and studied to make SURE that it was
"of God" (non speakers scared the crap
out of me, causing me to doubt my own
experiences.
I do feel though that there is enough
in the text to prove it, At least I was not
able to 'dis' prove it when I attempted.

As the "least of the gifts" it sure is a blessing
to me! When I feel that unction to pray for my
family but have no idea why...I start in tongues,
.One could practically pray at
all times without ceasing!
I was praying while walking down the aisles of
the supermarket (very quietly) and then I thought
of how easy it would be to get in trouble or arrested
or something lol... so I reconsidered :blush:
 
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SummaScriptura

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Now that we're done talking tongues, let's talk about something near and dear to my heart...

...serpent-handling!

Here's me and my posse from last Sunday...

My friend Vern lost his arm some time ago due to doubtin'

geuu_01_img0158.jpg
 
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sunlover1

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Now that we're done talking tongues, let's talk about something near and dear to my heart...

...serpent-handling!

Here's me and my posse from last Sunday...

My friend Vern lost his arm some time ago due to doubtin'

geuu_01_img0158.jpg
LOL
Excellent, great subject.
Do ya'll provide some poison to drink too?
(Is it me or does that guy w/ the snake remind
you of a popular televangelist?)
Right?
:p
 
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NorrinRadd

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I agree. I believe "tongues" as they are practiced today are an emotional phenomenon which has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, nor with any language as has been used by God to communicate his Word.

1) In my experience in various Pentecostal and Charismatic churches beginning in 1984, the percentage of tongues-speaking events involving an agitated emotional state would be in the single digits.

2) Scripture does not present tongues as a means by which God communicates His word, so that part of your quote supports the idea that modern tongues *are* consistent with the Spirit giving the utterance, as in Scripture.


I have perused some of these studies, though they typically have quite a low sampling.

The findings I read were that there were no discernible differences at all, neither phonetically nor physiologically between glossolalia as practiced by Christians and glossolalia as practiced by non-Christians. No difference.

Which begs the question, if ecstatic utterances are not used for the original purposes for which the authentic works of the Holy Spirit were intended, what purpose do they serve?

IMO they are classic examples of the workings of a theology of glory - that which serves to exalt man and his works, rather than the true theology of the Cross by which humility and weakness are authentic expressions of our exalted Lord.
IMO, your view results from an unhealthy theology of abasement that rarely if ever mentions such things as the fact that believers sit enthroned with Christ in heavenly places.


I believe that in the absence of sacramental theology in some Christian traditions there has been an effort to employ ecstatic speech and emotional outbursts as a way to connect with God, or to prove or demonstrate a connection with God. They are means by which some attempt to reach up to God, to get a touch from God, or to experience the working of God in their lives in some extraordinary way. But this is not in accordance with what scripture teaches.
When I pray and praise in tongues, it is typically no more "emotional" than ordinary praying in English. When I do it, I have the sense that it arises from the fact that I *am* connected with and indwelt by God, not that I am making some "attempt" to "reach" Him. I have the sense that "extraordinary" as it may be, it is, or at least should be, something Xians "ordinarily" experience. I find that it is not just "in accord" with Scripture, but that Scripture teaches it is normative.



2 Cor. 12:12 The things that mark an apostle - signs, wonders and miracles - were done among you with great perseverance.
The purpose of these signs, wonders and miracles were to establish the authority of the apostles to believers, and to unbelievers as a validation of the proclamation of the Gospel.
Those did mark apostles. But Scripturally, those were not the *only* things that marked apostles, and they were not restricted to apostles.



They were never meant to be used as means of grace. Our Lord Jesus Christ himself instituted means of grace- the sacraments of holy baptism and holy communion...
And yet, in line with what MTK said, I have found only two occasions where "charis" or a variant occurs in the same context as baptism or baptize, and neither suggests that baptism is a "means" of charis. I have not found any for charis and the Communion teachings. OTOH, charis or a form thereof occurs regularly in the contexts of the "gifts" -- 1 Cor. 12, Rom. 12, Eph. 4.


- in order to provide us with objective means by which we can each experience God directly.
And yet Paul said it was via the Spirit that we experience the presence of God with unveiled face. 2 Cor. 3:17-18


The Holy Spirit touches us and enters us through the washing of regeneration in baptism.
If you mean water baptism, I can't find evidence in Scripture for baptismal regeneration.


Our Lord gives us the price of our redemption in our bodies for the forgiveness of sins as we receive his true body and blood along with the bread and wine in holy communion.

In his sacraments, God comes to each one of us individually and presents us the opportunity to experience him in a physical, tangible way, regardless of our emotional state, by faith alone.
And yet in Gal. 3, Paul appeals to the *experience* of the *Spirit*.


We have no need of emotional outbursts...
Nor do we need to eschew the occasional joyous leaping and spinning around -- Luke 10:21.


... or dubious ecstatic utterances. In fact, they lead us away from God and deeper into the emotional, fallible, subjective, experience-based religion favored by our flesh as evidenced by the fact that exactly the same phenomena frequently occur in false religions.
Oh, please. What is more fleshly and "experience-based" than churches that embrace rituals, ceremonial garb, soaring architecture, etc.?
 
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NorrinRadd

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Originally Posted by Mathetes the kerux
I would disagree emphatically. Based on a survey of the Greek text, the modifiers and nouns/pro-nouns used make a known Human language IMPOSSIBLE. The linguistic "shot to the skull" is the ioudian (judean) of those who were listening. You essentially, if they are known human dialects, have Judeans speaking Judean and the Judean who hear SUPRISED and IN AWE to hear fellow Judeans speaking to them in Judean . . . which makes no sense to the miraculous nature of the passage at hand. Even Kittel's TDNT (the foremost recognised linguisitc tool or Greek) agrees and they are no where NEAR pentecostal. If u want a detailed break down of the text I would be happy to post it for u . . .

The tongues in Acts and those of 1 Cor are the same. Tongues was not the vehicle for the Gospel in Acts, PETER'S preaching was. The content of the tongues in Acts is the same as that of 1 Cor . . . they were magnifying God (praise and worship if u will) by speaking of His glorious deeds.

Acts 2:11
speaking of the mighty deeds of God.
NASU

That is not the kerygmatic presentation of the Gospel.

Sorry
smile.gif

scripture says different


ACTS 2

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?


key passages are #6 and #8

The gifts of tongues at Pentecost was so the Word can spread across the world to people of different languages.
That is very clear.

it is different then the spiritual tongues Paul was referring to in Corinithians.
progress.gif

Nice cherry-picking of the "key passages." You left out 2:11, which tells the content of their speaking: "The mighty deeds of God." No Gospel there. And why would there be? The tongues-speaking was just among the believers; unbelieving Jews heard noise and came to investigate. When he became aware of their presence, Peter stood to address them. At that point he DID preach an evangelistic message, and there was no "tongues" associated with it. Likewise ch. 10 and 19 -- no evangelism via the tongues.
 
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heymikey80

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1. Are tongues, as a gift of the Holy Spirit, still present today?
As a practical cessationist, I think the Spirit gives gifts for specific purposes. I don't think He has a purpose for giving tongues to everyone or to every church -- just the church that needs it.
2. What relationship does the gift of tongues have with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
It's a gift of the Spirit. It isn't necessary to baptism of the Holy Spirit. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is often a squashed-together version of three things that in much earlier theologies were considered to occur separately in time: the regeneration of a person; the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; and the giving of gifts by the Holy Spirit.
3. Are there different types of the gift of tongues such as one form to be used to edify the church through interpretation and another form as a private prayer language to God or maybe another?
There's no indication of a difference from Paul, who seems to be the source of private tongues. The thought of a private prayer language does not appear to be strong in Paul -- in the verses cited, Paul's just saying when not to exercise the gift publicly.

Ultimately, Paul is not "big" on unknown tongues, for certain. He talks about it more to reduce its use in the Corinthian church, than to increase its use.
4. When should we be using or not be using the gift of tongues?
When it builds up the church.
 
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bling

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K, guess I have to go this route . . .


[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Tongues in Acts 2 . . .[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']The first thing to consider is the usage of glwssaiV lalien(speaking in tongues) in historical context. It is widely known that the ecstatic usage of tongues was widely practiced during the time of New Testament (NT) Palestine in the whole Mediterranian due to the so-called mystery religions/cults.

The Pythian and Delphic oracles were known to spout unintelligible prophecies that needed an interpreter when the women were said to be under the influence of a supernatural entity (pagan gods). This provides the usage of profhthV and glwssaiV lalien in Koine history in association with non-human unintelligible speech.

The phrase speaking in tongues, while not necessarily connoting ecstaic speech, does certainly INCLUDE this dimension of usage. Most limited lexicons give very brief and simplisitc overviews of the Koine Greek . . . the best, recognised universally, is G. Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT). I would suggest a view of the article on glwssa.

The historical concept of the profhthV and their speech and the contrast of the mystical concept of the pnuema verses the nouV pretty much seals the deal that the speech was not of the understanding . . . but from the place within that connected with what extends beyond the understanding. This can be defined as ecstatic.

So lets define ecstatic. A compound verb from ek (out of) and estemi (to stand) making ekstasiV, or literally out of stance . . . it has the connotation of out of NORMAL stance. Hence it has been used in reference to a vision (Acts 10:10) and amazement (Mark 5:42).

Our common conception of ecstatic, someone running around bumping into walls and frothing at the mouth is NOT what is in view . . . hence to read our current colloquial usage is folly. Truly, any gifting or move of the Spirit can be ecstatic if demonstrative enough to cause amazement . . . or even the specially edowed prophetic utterances whose source is not from "normalcy" but the supernatural working of the Spirit. This usage is in view when I say "ecstatic" . . . it is thoroughly biblical and wholesome.

To the text of Acts 2:

We have already established that there is an understanding of ecstatic NON-human language in the usage of the Konie glwssaiV lalien, although not a necessary understanding. The context will have to determine our understanding.

The first concept of import is in the word eterais (other) . . . the clear concept of the word includes something that was different than their normal tongue and something that was altogether new to them. Hence, whatever it was that they spoke . . . it was NOT something that they were familiar with . . . not something that was in their history of personal usage.

The second concept is that the speech was inspired by the pnuema (Spirit). Many studies have overlooked this vital concept. The history of the word is one of mystical and other-worldy usage. It is derrived from the pn a linguistic construct that pointed to the unknown and supernatural representing the rough breath and mystery the ancients associated with breathing and air. Hence, pnuema, connotes a supernatural unknown mysterious feeling.

The connection with pnuema and speech (laleo or cognates) cannot be overemphasized . . . the history of association from Plato and others in Ancient Greek of the mystery of speech inspired by the pnuema carries into the NT with the concept of the Holy Spirit of God. This connection wasn't unqiue to the Greeks . . . Hebrews associated the same mystery as did most ancient cultures.

This background lays the foundation for a type of speech which is obviously supernatural and patently *other* worldy. At this point it may still be known foreign languages supernaturally imparted, however.

The next touchpoint is the use of fonhV (sound). It is singular . . . not plural. That means that when the masses heard what it was that they heard . . . it was ONE loud sound . . . not many variable sounds. The sound of a group not individuals. This leads to the conclusion that what they gathered to was NOT a speech, per se, procession . . . but something much more awkward . . . obtruse.

Here is where the arguement begins to take more form, and from the Greek becomes quite clear. The text will be helpful:

Acts 2:6-8
6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. Acts
7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, " Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
NASU

NASU

The key is the singular and plural usage. "each one" ekstatoV eiV (each man singular) is the men hearing. Each individual heard them (autwn first [v. 6] plural and ekstatoV second [v. 8] SINGULAR) . . . AS A GROUP. The picture is of each man hearing them (plural) as a GROUP (singular). One hears ALL of them speaking in Parthian, while the man next to him hears THE SAME MEN (AS A GROUP) speaking in Mede AT THE SAME TIME . . . and it continues down the line.

Illustration: I am speaking in (whatever) and I have a Mexican, Russian and African all in front of me . . . the Mexican man is hearing me in Spanish, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME the Russian is hearing me in Russian WHILE AT THE SAME TIME the African is hearing me in African.

TDNT sees the sealing issue the Ioudaian (Judean's) as original (meaning it is in the original autographa). As such . . . this means that you have Judeans (local Jews) suprised to hear Judean's (the disciples) speaking Judean! BIG PROBLEMS. The resolution is that they are mystified because everyone is hearing their own dialects coming from the same men at the same time . . . which is physiologically impossible.

The case then becomes more of a miracle of hearing . . . than a miracle of speaking. The miracle is that the men gather at a strange sound, something uncommon (foreign languages are hardly uncommon) and are further dismayed as they are each able miraculously to understand this formerly strange sound in their own dialects AT THE SAME TIME AS THE MAN NEXT TO THEM from the WHOLE GROUP OF DISCIPLES.

Add to this that those who gathered and heard the noise and DID NOT understand accused the disciples of being DRUNK (ever heard a drunk man speak unintelligibly? I have) and you have a pretty solid case that the tongues of Acts 2 were ecstatic unintelligible languages who the Holy Spirit imparted understanding of to the men who would be converted.

[/font]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']So the case is pretty clear. I have laid out history, usage, the text, linguisitcs . . . if u can refute these . . . then have at it. I have yet to have anyone really sink their teeth in to refute it. The logic and hermeneutic is sound . . . have fun :)[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]

I do not want to pit my scholars opinions against your scholars opinions. Tongues means an unknown language to the audience, but does not need to mean a totally unknown language to all humans.

The sound of the wind was one sound but it does not say all got up and spoke in unisen making one sound.
The Jews could have heard these Galalians speak in perfect Hewbrew which was understood by most in Jerusalem, but was not used in Galalea at this time.

We have maybe 40,000 different copies of manuscripts in konie Greek, but that does not enable us to be that definitive of how 33AD Jews were using these words in Jerusalem.
 
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bling

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There are other examples of nueter words refering back to other masc and fem words . . . I just cant think of any. I have to get back to you on that.

As for oudeis . . . no one means no one. Like NONE come the the Father (john 14:6). The principle is that the speaker is NEVER understood unless the Spirit grants the interpretation; hence, w/o an interpreter . . . no body else understands. And, BTW, Corinth was a CULTURAL HUB. No doubt MANY nations were represented there. Probly evry nation of the known world at that point. The entire context of chpt 14 presumes the lack of ability of anyone present to understand the language hence why it brings confusion and hence why a gift of interpretation is needed.

As for grammar and Paul. The ONLY NT writer that has perfect grammar is Luke. John has HORRIBLE grammar and Paul is also not the best . . . he is merely good. Paul is most notorious for run on sentences. So he is not nearly as good as one might think.



No. Not all heard and understood . . . only those who would respond in faith heard and understood. Those who did NOT understand were those who mocked (oh they are drunk) thos who DID understand were those who HEARD and whose hearts were RENT. So you have the Spirit rendering faith to hear and recieve.

see my above post for a great breakdown of what seems the best solution to my studies.
There are good reasons for the way Paul wrote. Paul use all capital letters and no punctuation to conserve paper(skins) which was very valualbe. The people of the day would have been use to this.
 
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Thekla

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As for grammar and Paul. The ONLY NT writer that has perfect grammar is Luke. John has HORRIBLE grammar and Paul is also not the best . . . he is merely good. Paul is most notorious for run on sentences. So he is not nearly as good as one might think.

Maybe Paul had read Thucydides :D

Without commerce, without freedom of communication either by land or sea, cultivating no more of their territory than the exigencies of life required, destitute of capital, never planting their land (for they could not tell when an invader might not come and take it all away, and when he did come they had no walls to stop him), thinking that the necessities of daily sustenance could be supplied at one place as well as another, they cared little for shifting their habitation, and consequently neither built large cities nor attained to any other form of greatness.
The Internet Classics Archive | The History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides


Paul's grammar is not bad. His sentences are long; not the same thing as bad grammar.
 
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