LDS Tithing is not forced, however...
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Zechariah
Senior Veteran
Katya,
I have something to add.
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.
Please consider what God is wanting for us to get out of this message. I don't feel that it is a message of do what I say or die a fiery death. This is a message about the state of our hearts. In order for Christ to return, the Earth must be cleansed of all evil. The millenium will begin and Christ will personally reign on Earth. That cannot happen if great wickedness exists here. A purging is necessary.
The surrounding verses discuss the wicked and the proud. I believe that these specific words are chosen for a reason. Now consider what is being asked of the saints - to sacrifice and tithe. Those who sacrifice and tithe will be humble they will have thankful and giving hearts. These are the very traits we will need to have to meet our Savior in the flesh. Don't you agree?
Does it seem reasonable to you, that if you pay your tithing the sacrifice that you make will make you more humble; sacrifice can make your more thankful for the blessings that you do have, and the test of faith that it represents is helping you be more obedient. Especially, if it's something you don't want to do.
Maybe it would help your struggle with it if you consider it an "investment in your spiritual growth." I hope that helps some.
Thank you Ran, for those words of wisdom.
Having received a testimony of the law of the tithe as a very young child, I nearly always paid tithing faithfully. I say nearly always because there were times, when, under severe financial distress, my faith was sorely tried, with the seriousness of the situation almost overtaking me. Thankfully, though, the Lord taught me, and continues to teach me, that, no matter how precarious things may appear to become, as long I put my trust in him, there is no need to fear. As a result, we've been greatly blessed as we've obeyed the law of the tithe, and this has been especially evident during periods of hardship. And, as I have said before, it has been just as if the cruse of oil truly failed not.
The last quote below, in particular, has also been a teaching that has been a great strength to me. I have never doubted the truth of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Even so, being very aware that Satan needs not fight against our strengths, when he has our weaknesses to target, I knew that if he could not succeed at getting me to doubt, there was always my most challenging weakness, with that being pride, and with pride, far too often, comes apostasy, something I could have no greater dread of succumbing to in life.
But, at hearing that quote, I literally let out an audible exclamation of joy at the teaching, which has, ever since, given me a greater degree of comfort, assurance, and peace to the soul, than almost any I can think of.
When we stand fast in the Lord, he strengthens and protects us in our weaknesses.
"When I am weak, then am I strong."
Obedience to the Law of Tithing
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith
Obedience to the law of tithing affirms our loyalty to the kingdom of God.
God requires one-tenth of our increase to be put into His storehouse; and this is given as a standing law to all of the Stakes of Zion. 3
By this principle (tithing) the loyalty of the people of this Church shall be put to the test. By this principle it shall be known who is for the kingdom of God and who is against it. By this principle it shall be seen whose hearts are set on doing the will of God and keeping his commandments, thereby sanctifying the land of Zion unto God, and who are opposed to this principle and have cut themselves off from the blessings of Zion. There is a great deal of importance connected with this principle, for by it it shall be known whether we are faithful or unfaithful. In this respect it is as essential as faith in God, as repentance of sin, as baptism for the remission of sin, or as the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. 4
The law of tithing is a test by which the people as individuals shall be proved. Any man who fails to observe this principle shall be known as a man who is indifferent to the welfare of Zion, who neglects his duty as a member of the Church, and who does nothing toward the accomplishment of the temporal advancement of the kingdom of God. He contributes nothing, either, toward spreading the gospel to the nations of the earth, and he neglects to do that which would entitle him to receive the blessings and ordinances of the gospel. 5
The observance of the law of tithing is voluntary. I can pay my tithing or not, as I choose. It is a matter of choice with me, whether I will do it or not do it; but, feeling as I do, loyal to the Church, loyal to its interests, believing that it is right and just to observe the law of tithing I do observe iton the same principle that I think it is right for me to observe the law of repentance, and of baptism, for the remission of sins. 6
We who have not paid our tithing in the past, and are therefore under obligations to the Lord, which we are not in position to discharge, the Lord requires that no longer at our hands, but will forgive us for the past if we will observe this law honestly in the future. That is generous and kind, and I feel grateful for it. 7
I have said, and I will repeat it here, that a man or woman who will always pay his or her tithing will never apostatize. It does not make any difference how small or how large it may be; it is a law of the Lord; it is a source of revenue for the Church; it is Gods requirement, and He has said that those who will not observe it are not worthy of an inheritance in Zion. No man will ever apostatize so long as he will pay his tithing. It is reasonable. Why? Because as long as he has faith to pay his tithing he has faith in the Church and in the principles of the Gospel, and there is some good in him, and there is some light in him. As long as he will do this the tempter will not overcome him and will not lead him astray. 8
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith
Obedience to the law of tithing affirms our loyalty to the kingdom of God.
God requires one-tenth of our increase to be put into His storehouse; and this is given as a standing law to all of the Stakes of Zion. 3
By this principle (tithing) the loyalty of the people of this Church shall be put to the test. By this principle it shall be known who is for the kingdom of God and who is against it. By this principle it shall be seen whose hearts are set on doing the will of God and keeping his commandments, thereby sanctifying the land of Zion unto God, and who are opposed to this principle and have cut themselves off from the blessings of Zion. There is a great deal of importance connected with this principle, for by it it shall be known whether we are faithful or unfaithful. In this respect it is as essential as faith in God, as repentance of sin, as baptism for the remission of sin, or as the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. 4
The law of tithing is a test by which the people as individuals shall be proved. Any man who fails to observe this principle shall be known as a man who is indifferent to the welfare of Zion, who neglects his duty as a member of the Church, and who does nothing toward the accomplishment of the temporal advancement of the kingdom of God. He contributes nothing, either, toward spreading the gospel to the nations of the earth, and he neglects to do that which would entitle him to receive the blessings and ordinances of the gospel. 5
The observance of the law of tithing is voluntary. I can pay my tithing or not, as I choose. It is a matter of choice with me, whether I will do it or not do it; but, feeling as I do, loyal to the Church, loyal to its interests, believing that it is right and just to observe the law of tithing I do observe iton the same principle that I think it is right for me to observe the law of repentance, and of baptism, for the remission of sins. 6
We who have not paid our tithing in the past, and are therefore under obligations to the Lord, which we are not in position to discharge, the Lord requires that no longer at our hands, but will forgive us for the past if we will observe this law honestly in the future. That is generous and kind, and I feel grateful for it. 7
I have said, and I will repeat it here, that a man or woman who will always pay his or her tithing will never apostatize. It does not make any difference how small or how large it may be; it is a law of the Lord; it is a source of revenue for the Church; it is Gods requirement, and He has said that those who will not observe it are not worthy of an inheritance in Zion. No man will ever apostatize so long as he will pay his tithing. It is reasonable. Why? Because as long as he has faith to pay his tithing he has faith in the Church and in the principles of the Gospel, and there is some good in him, and there is some light in him. As long as he will do this the tempter will not overcome him and will not lead him astray. 8
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http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi25.htm
"When the scripture says the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, this is not figurative but literal..."
And I thought it was figurative! My bad!
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SECOND COMING WILL BE TOMORROW. I was asked, not long ago, if I could tell when the Lord would come. I answered, Yes; and I answer, Yes, now. I know when he will come. He will come tomorrow. We have his word for it. Let me read it:
Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day of tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. (Now there is a discourse sufficient on tithing.) For after today cometh the burningthis is speaking after the manner of the Lordfor verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, p. 1
Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day of tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. (Now there is a discourse sufficient on tithing.) For after today cometh the burningthis is speaking after the manner of the Lordfor verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, p. 1
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Thank you, Zechariah, for the informative citation from Joseph Fielding Smith. One sentence, in particular, caught my attention, as follows:
"I have said, and I will repeat it here, that a man or woman who will always pay his or her tithing will never apostatize. "
If I am not mistaken, there are several former LDS posters here such as MoodShadow who for up to forty years were very circumspect about tithing and yet left the LDS. Any comments? Was J. S. Smith speaking as a prophet or just opinion that no LDS who tithes will ever apostatize? In either case, it appears he was quite in error.
"I have said, and I will repeat it here, that a man or woman who will always pay his or her tithing will never apostatize. "
If I am not mistaken, there are several former LDS posters here such as MoodShadow who for up to forty years were very circumspect about tithing and yet left the LDS. Any comments? Was J. S. Smith speaking as a prophet or just opinion that no LDS who tithes will ever apostatize? In either case, it appears he was quite in error.
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Moodshadow
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I know you were asking Zech, not me, and he can and should respond for himself. But I'll stick in another penny's worth, if I may. We were indeed 100% faithful about paying our tithing and doing everything else it took to keep our temple recommends current. Another LDS president (David O. McKay, maybe? - not at all sure about that) said in essence that the family that consistently holds family hold evening will not apostatize. We did that, and I know many other LDS families who also did, and, like ours, they also did not all remain LDS. Five of our seven children soon became inactive after they left the nest, and I didn't find out about it until they learned that I was questioning myself. Only then could they get up the courage to break the news to me without fear of breaking my heart.
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An interesting point about tithing is that LDS like to quote Malachi 3:10 to bolster their teaching that tithes are commanded and they even go on to say that tithes are a requirement for eternal life.
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
Malachi 3:10
To whom was the Lord speaking in Malachi 3:10?
Malachi 2
1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. 3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand. 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Who had robbed the Lord and who was the Lord going to purify?
Nehemiah 13
4 And before this, Eliashib the priest, having the oversight of the chamber of the house of our God, was allied unto Tobiah: 5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests. 6 But in all this time was not I at Jerusalem: for in the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes king of Babylon came I unto the king, and after certain days obtained I leave of the king: 7 And I came to Jerusalem, and understood of the evil that Eliashib did for Tobiah, in preparing him a chamber in the courts of the house of God. 8 And it grieved me sore: therefore I cast forth all the household stuff to Tobiah out of the chamber. 9 Then I commanded, and they cleansed the chambers: and thither brought I again the vessels of the house of God, with the meat offering and the frankincense.
10 And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field. 11 Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place. 12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. 13 And I made treasurers over the treasuries, Shelemiah the priest, and Zadok the scribe, and of the Levites, Pedaiah: and next to them was Hanan the son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah: for they were counted faithful, and their office was to distribute unto their brethren.
Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible:
Nehemiah 13
Eliashib is fond of his new kinsman, pleased with his company, and must have him as near him as he can. He has not a room for him stately enough in his own apartment, in the courts of the temple; therefore, out of several little chambers which had been used for store-chambers, by taking down the partitions, he contrived to make one great chamber, a state-room for Tobiah, v. 5. A wretched thing it was, [1.] That Tobiah the Ammonite should be entertained with respect in Israel, and have a magnificent reception. [2.] That the high priest, who should have taught the people the law and set them a good example, should, contrary to the law, give him entertainment, and make use of the power he had, as overseer of the chambers of the temple, for that purpose. [3.] That he should lodge him in the courts of Gods house, as if to confront God himself; this was next to setting up an idol there, as the wicked kings of old had done. An Ammonite must not come into the congregation; and shall one of the worst and vilest of the Ammonites be courted into the temple itself, and caressed there? [4.] That he should throw out the stores of the temple, to make room for him, and so expose them to be lost, wasted, and embezzled, though they were the portions of the priests, merely to gratify Tobiah. Thus did he corrupt the covenant of Levi, as Malachi complained at this time, ch. 2:8. Well might Nehemiah add (v. 6), But all this time was not I at Jerusalem. If he had been there, the high priest durst not have done such a thing. The envious one, who sows tares in Gods field, knows how to take an opportunity to do it when the servants sleep or are absent, Mt. 13:25. The golden calf was made when Moses was in the mount.2. How bravely Nehemiah, the chief governor, threw him out, and all that belonged to him, and restored the chambers to their proper use.
More later.
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
Malachi 3:10
To whom was the Lord speaking in Malachi 3:10?
Malachi 2
1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. 3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. 4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand. 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?
Malachi 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Who had robbed the Lord and who was the Lord going to purify?
Nehemiah 13
4 And before this, Eliashib the priest, having the oversight of the chamber of the house of our God, was allied unto Tobiah: 5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests. 6 But in all this time was not I at Jerusalem: for in the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes king of Babylon came I unto the king, and after certain days obtained I leave of the king: 7 And I came to Jerusalem, and understood of the evil that Eliashib did for Tobiah, in preparing him a chamber in the courts of the house of God. 8 And it grieved me sore: therefore I cast forth all the household stuff to Tobiah out of the chamber. 9 Then I commanded, and they cleansed the chambers: and thither brought I again the vessels of the house of God, with the meat offering and the frankincense.
10 And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field. 11 Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place. 12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. 13 And I made treasurers over the treasuries, Shelemiah the priest, and Zadok the scribe, and of the Levites, Pedaiah: and next to them was Hanan the son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah: for they were counted faithful, and their office was to distribute unto their brethren.
Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible:
Nehemiah 13
Eliashib is fond of his new kinsman, pleased with his company, and must have him as near him as he can. He has not a room for him stately enough in his own apartment, in the courts of the temple; therefore, out of several little chambers which had been used for store-chambers, by taking down the partitions, he contrived to make one great chamber, a state-room for Tobiah, v. 5. A wretched thing it was, [1.] That Tobiah the Ammonite should be entertained with respect in Israel, and have a magnificent reception. [2.] That the high priest, who should have taught the people the law and set them a good example, should, contrary to the law, give him entertainment, and make use of the power he had, as overseer of the chambers of the temple, for that purpose. [3.] That he should lodge him in the courts of Gods house, as if to confront God himself; this was next to setting up an idol there, as the wicked kings of old had done. An Ammonite must not come into the congregation; and shall one of the worst and vilest of the Ammonites be courted into the temple itself, and caressed there? [4.] That he should throw out the stores of the temple, to make room for him, and so expose them to be lost, wasted, and embezzled, though they were the portions of the priests, merely to gratify Tobiah. Thus did he corrupt the covenant of Levi, as Malachi complained at this time, ch. 2:8. Well might Nehemiah add (v. 6), But all this time was not I at Jerusalem. If he had been there, the high priest durst not have done such a thing. The envious one, who sows tares in Gods field, knows how to take an opportunity to do it when the servants sleep or are absent, Mt. 13:25. The golden calf was made when Moses was in the mount.2. How bravely Nehemiah, the chief governor, threw him out, and all that belonged to him, and restored the chambers to their proper use.
More later.
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Ran77
Senior Contributor
It has been my experience that the Bible is intended for all of us. Regardless of who the Lord originally addressed in any of His messages, we are encouraged to search the scriptures and apply the lessons learned there to our lives. We are to make these personal for us. So, for me, I don't care who the verse was spoken to, I only care how it applies to my life.
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Zechariah
Senior Veteran
First of all, since none of us can know which, if any, of us are, were, or ever have been circumspect about tithing, or anything else, beyond our say so, one thing does not prove another, either way.
What's more, if one wishes to dismiss Joseph F. Smith as speaking as a prophet, on the appearance of a failed promise, he'd better be prepared to consider dismissing others, with things such as, "Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." Or, "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." etc., since we've all known examples of people to do these, without the accompanying promises being realized.
Secondly, such promises, whether for this life or eternity, have, at their foundation, the necessary principle of faith. Going through the motions keeping a commandment, without the necessary faith, will not bring the accompanied promise.
As, "...without faith it is impossible to please him..."
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First of all, since none of us can know which, if any, of us are, were, or ever have been circumspect about tithing, or anything else, beyond our say so, one thing does not prove another, either way.
What's more, if one wishes to dismiss Joseph F. Smith as speaking as a prophet, on the appearance of a failed promise, he'd better be prepared to consider dismissing others, with things such as, "Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." Or, "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." etc., since we've all known examples of people to do these, without the accompanying promises being realized.
Secondly, such promises, whether for this life or eternity, have, at their foundation, the necessary principle of faith. Going through the motions keeping a commandment, without the necessary faith, will not bring the accompanied promise.
As, "...without faith it is impossible to please him..."
I trust that you have read Moodshadow's response to my post. I think you can take up the issue of her faithfulness with her during the forty years she faithfully tithed to the CoJCoLDS.
Was J. F. Smith speaking as a prophet when he made that statement or is this another instance where what was one regarded as prophetic is now seen as merely an opinion of his?
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RufustheRed
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Did you even read the quote or click on the link that the OP was based on? After you do, why don't you tell us how it is out of context. It has been apparent for a long time that anything Phoebe Ann posts will meet with your ire, but at least post to the topic of the thread. (Of course, now I will be accused of being off topic myself, now. So be it.)
Cassiopeia said:
Which proves what? That you have heard all of the talks and read all of the literature coming out of the LDS church. Please comment on the quote in the OP.
Cassiopeia said:
Great, but that isn't what this says http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi25.htm
Cassiopeia said:
Totally of topic. We are here to discuss theology and/or beliefs. NOT people.
May I suggest that if you despise a person this much you, should put them on ignore.
Rufus (AKA Sven; AKA Mac)
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It has been my experience that the Bible is intended for all of us. Regardless of who the Lord originally addressed in any of His messages, we are encouraged to search the scriptures and apply the lessons learned there to our lives. We are to make these personal for us. So, for me, I don't care who the verse was spoken to, I only care how it applies to my life.
And it applies to your life very differently if you are LDS. You follow the commandment to a certain group of people who were told to tithe. Most likely you do not follow other instructions from the Old Testament. Example: "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts." (Proverbs 31:6)
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About Abraham and his tithe:
Hebrews 7
King James Bible
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
You will note that Abraham did not give Melchisedec a tenth of his own property, but gave him a percentage of the spoils of war.
When did Abraham do this? After he rescued Lot from Sodom.
Genesis 14
10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slime pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain. 11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way. 12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. 14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. 15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. 16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, 23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: 24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
Later tithes were included in the Mosaic Law to provide for the Levites. (Numbers, Chapter 18 explains this.)
Hebrews 7
King James Bible
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
You will note that Abraham did not give Melchisedec a tenth of his own property, but gave him a percentage of the spoils of war.
When did Abraham do this? After he rescued Lot from Sodom.
Genesis 14
10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slime pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain. 11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way. 12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. 14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. 15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. 16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, 23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: 24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
Later tithes were included in the Mosaic Law to provide for the Levites. (Numbers, Chapter 18 explains this.)
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Ran77
Senior Contributor
It doesn't say that Abraham didn't give a tenth of his own property. This is an incident and in this instance he gave a tenth of his increase, which were the spoils of war. To attempt to make a statement that he did not also give a tenth of his property is to read something into the text that isn't there.
Again, there is no text that states tithing didn't exist before this time. This is something that is being read into the text that isn't there. It is being given to Israel, but there is no indication that the righteous followers of God before this time did not practice tithing.
This is what it does indicate to the people:
Nehemiah 10: 37
37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
Numbers 18: 26
26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.
2 Chronicals 31: 5
5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
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RufustheRed
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Can/will you tell us when tithing was instituted? Do you have evidence that tithing was instituted befored it was written into the Mosiac law?
Can/will you tell if the tithes received by your church is to support the Levites who are the only ones authorized to enter the temple?
Thanks.
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The spoils of war were not his to give. These things had been stolen from Sodom and Gomorrah.
Au contraire. To say that he also gave a tenth of his personal property to Melchisedec is to add words to God's words about the matter.
Proverbs 30:6 says
"Add thou not unto his words , lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
There is no evidence that anyone paid tithes to Melchisedec before the one incident when Abraham gave him of the spoils of war. And that was 400 years before Moses.
This is what it does indicate to the people:
Again, the tithe in Israel provided food for the Levites, who served in the tabernacle and later in the temple. The following verses show that the tithe was edible:
Numbers 18: 26
26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Numbers 18:26 NIV:
Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering.
A tenth of a tenth was for the Lord. Aaron and his descendants would offer this portion.
27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. 28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest. 29 Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it. 30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress. 31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation. 32 And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die.
Leviticus 27 also explains what the tithe should be:
30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD. 31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. 33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
That, BTW, is 2 Chronicles. It is good that they obeyed the commandment.
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Cassiopeia
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Mac, I don't despise anyone.May I suggest that if you despise a person this much you, should put them on ignore.
Rufus (AKA Sven; AKA Mac)
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Zechariah
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But not by Abraham. What's more, when the king of Sodom offered Abraham the spoils in trade, he refused to take anything. Genesis 14
Have you also forgotten that Lot and his people had been taken captive, along with their goods being taken also, which Abraham brought back in the rescue?
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Ran77
Senior Contributor
Ok. Not my concern.
You have this backwards. I didn't make such a claim. However, you stated this:
"You will note that Abraham did not give Melchisedec a tenth of his own property, but gave him a percentage of the spoils of war."
Now, direct that verse you just quoted to this comment.
And there is no evidence that they didn't. Unless you consider the argument that God is unchanging and that it is likely that the worship of Him remained the same until the time of Christ.
And is there some significance to this? It seems a lot of scripture to prove a point I haven't argued against.
And the significance is what?
Yes, it is good to obey the commandments. Which is usually the point I am making. Glad to see you coming around finally.
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