Order without Intelligence

Tiberius

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There are lots of people here who claim that evolution can't be true because any ordered results must be the product of an intelligence. And that the processes by which evolution is claimed to operate are random, so they can't be responsible for the wide variety of life we see around us.

Well, there are two problems here.

Firstly, evolution is not random. True, some parts of it are. The variations that occur in individuals are random, but whether those variations are passed down to later generations is not. Any variation that improves the individual's chances of living long enough to reproduce are more likely to be passed on. And variations that make it harder for the individual to survive are less likely to be passed on, simply because the animal is probably going to die from its disadvantage before it can reproduce.

Secondly, it is entirely possible to have ordered results that have nothing to do with any intelligence. Natural processes alone can produce order that might seem, at first, to be the work of some intelligent agent. But it is not so, and the processes can be explained.

For example, why is it that when you open a box of cornflakes that all the big ones are on the top and all the little ones are at the bottom? It's because moving the box causes the cornflakes to shift around a bit. This opens holes. And the holes will start out small. Thus, the small bits will fall through them before the larger pieces. The end result is a box of cornflakes where the small bits are at the bottom.

So, is there anyone here who thinks I am wrong?
 

gaara4158

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The general response most theists will submit is that God is the one who set the natural laws so that these things would happen. I find this argument slightly more tiresome because it often leads to uniformity vs. chaos and presuppositionalism, two topics that require a great deal of explanation.
 
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Everlasting33

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Its just all a matter of perception. When I look at the human body, I absolutely see intelligent design. Atheists cannot since this undermines their entire worldview so its only natural for them to continue with their perspective.

While I can appreciate these forums, it can become frugal to defend a point since one rarely gives up a sincere perspective, especially on this topic or on morality.
 
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Wedjat

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Actually, the reason I don't see intelligent design in humans has less to do with my theological position and more to do with how stupid the design would have to be if we actually were designed.
I mean the eye is a structural nightmare, and don't even get me started on the trachea/esophagus
 
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Biologist

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Its just all a matter of perception. When I look at the human body, I absolutely see intelligent design. Atheists cannot since this undermines their entire worldview so its only natural for them to continue with their perspective.
Evolution isn't a matter of perception. It's quantifiable.
 
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Mike Elphick

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Its just all a matter of perception. When I look at the human body, I absolutely see intelligent design. Atheists cannot since this undermines their entire worldview so its only natural for them to continue with their perspective.

This 'worldview' thing is some nonsense conjured up by creationists! Just see how silly this concept is: -

Biblical Glasses
Biblical Glasses represent a worldview for all people and all time. Biblical Glasses contradict today's popular secular worldview known as post-modernism, humanism, or moral relativism.
CREATION - God created everything perfectly at the beginning
CORRUPTION - the first man rebelled against God (called sin) and corruption (death and disease) entered the universe
CATASTROPHE - God judged the Earth with a cataclysmic global Flood
CONFUSION - God gave different languages to people causing people groups to form and spread over the Earth
CHRIST - God, in the person of His Son, stepped into human history to become a man - the God-man
CROSS - Christ died on a cross to save people from their sin, and was raised from the dead
CONSUMMATION - one day the universe will be remade to be perfect again.

Secular Glasses
Secular glasses represent the beliefs that fallible humans use to try to explain how and why the universe exists. These beliefs cause us to see these facts in a particular way, to view them through the following account of supposed history:
EVOLUTION - the universe began without any supernatural intervention - life evolved on Earth by random processes
EVIL - death, disease, violence and suffering have existed throughout time
EARTH - the Earth has been molded by billions of years of processes - including laying down of the fossil layers
EVERYONE - all people and languages evolved from some ape-like ancestor
ETHICS - religion, and ideas of right and wrong, evolved
ESCAPE - death ends man's existence
END - the Sun will run out - life will cease - the universe may 'die.'
Biblical Glasses: Looking at Life through the Bible Christian Summary Timeline Apologetic Commentary

When I look at a living organism (it doesn't need to be human body) I certainly see design — that's because evolution is a design process in its own right. If I was scientifically naive and lacked knowledge of biology and evolution (like the ancient Hebrew writers of the OT), then I might very well have believed in special creation. But then I do have some knowledge in these matters and therefore I see the organism (whatever it is) in a wider context, not blinkered by ignorance. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but I've not seen any real evidence for 'Intelligent Design', only arguments from incredulity. To soften my argument a little for you, I accept that arguing from incredulity is a reasonable stance to take, except when there is an alternative explanation — as in the story of the 'irreducibly complex' bacterial flagellum.

While I can appreciate these forums, it can become frugal to defend a point since one rarely gives up a sincere perspective, especially on this topic or on morality.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'frugal', perhaps you mean 'futile', or maybe this is one of those transatlantic language issues :)
 
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Tiberius

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When I look at the human body, I absolutely see intelligent design. Atheists cannot since this undermines their entire worldview so its only natural for them to continue with their perspective.

You make it sound like atheists refuse to see the design because they don't want to have to acknowledge the existence of God. Speaking for myself, this is not true. I don't see design in the Human body simply because I don't see anything that is explainable only by design. Me not wanting to accept the existence of God has nothing to do with it.

In fact, if you were to say that I wanted to deny the existence of God, you would be wrong. I don't look at things with the idea, "How can I use this to say God doesn't exist." I just try to find the truth. And if that truth is that God exists, so be it. I just want evidence first. So far, I have seen nothing the requires the existence of God.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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There are lots of people here who claim that evolution can't be true because any ordered results must be the product of an intelligence. And that the processes by which evolution is claimed to operate are random, so they can't be responsible for the wide variety of life we see around us.
I am one of those people.

Well, there are two problems here.

Firstly, evolution is not random. True, some parts of it are. The variations that occur in individuals are random, but whether those variations are passed down to later generations is not. Any variation that improves the individual's chances of living long enough to reproduce are more likely to be passed on. And variations that make it harder for the individual to survive are less likely to be passed on, simply because the animal is probably going to die from its disadvantage before it can reproduce.
If evolution is not random then what is directing mutation and natural selection?

Secondly, it is entirely possible to have ordered results that have nothing to do with any intelligence. Natural processes alone can produce order that might seem, at first, to be the work of some intelligent agent. But it is not so, and the processes can be explained.

For example, why is it that when you open a box of cornflakes that all the big ones are on the top and all the little ones are at the bottom? It's because moving the box causes the cornflakes to shift around a bit. This opens holes. And the holes will start out small. Thus, the small bits will fall through them before the larger pieces. The end result is a box of cornflakes where the small bits are at the bottom.
"There is no unintelligent processes known to science that can generate codes and machines." -- Michael Egnor, neurosurgeon, February 5th 2009

So, is there anyone here who thinks I am wrong?
I do.
 
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Tiberius

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I am one of those people.

So I've gathered.

If evolution is not random then what is directing mutation and natural selection?

Same thing that guides the little cornflakes settling to the bottom of the box. Why do you find it so hard to see that order can arise without intelligent intervention...?

"There is no unintelligent processes known to science that can generate codes and machines." -- Michael Egnor, neurosurgeon, February 5th 2009

Appeal to authority? Why would a neurosurgeon know about how codes and machines are formed? And your idea of DNA and life being comparible to codes and machines is not really accurate, you know.

Why don't you study the work of someone who actually has to study this sort of thing for a living? Neurosurgeons aren't really the sort who go around studying DNA and the processes that guide evolution.



And yet you've not given me anything to make me think that your position is accurate.
 
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jamesrwright3

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You make it sound like atheists refuse to see the design because they don't want to have to acknowledge the existence of God. Speaking for myself, this is not true. I don't see design in the Human body simply because I don't see anything that is explainable only by design. Me not wanting to accept the existence of God has nothing to do with it.

In fact, if you were to say that I wanted to deny the existence of God, you would be wrong. I don't look at things with the idea, "How can I use this to say God doesn't exist." I just try to find the truth. And if that truth is that God exists, so be it. I just want evidence first. So far, I have seen nothing the requires the existence of God.

Atheists have invented multiverses to try to explain away a finely tuned universe that allows life to exist. They now are trying to say there are millions of universes and eventually some universe was going to "get it right".
 
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AV1611VET

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Atheists have invented multiverses to try to explain away a finely tuned universe that allows life to exist. They now are trying to say there are millions of universes and eventually some universe was going to "get it right".
An atheist will invent whatever it takes to explain a phenomenon.

Need more time? Invent eons.

Need more space? Just move the boundaries.

Then spend the rest of your life trying to fill in the gaps in the name of progress.
 
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Molal

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There are lots of people here who claim that evolution can't be true because any ordered results must be the product of an intelligence. And that the processes by which evolution is claimed to operate are random, so they can't be responsible for the wide variety of life we see around us.

Well, there are two problems here.

Firstly, evolution is not random. True, some parts of it are. The variations that occur in individuals are random, but whether those variations are passed down to later generations is not. Any variation that improves the individual's chances of living long enough to reproduce are more likely to be passed on. And variations that make it harder for the individual to survive are less likely to be passed on, simply because the animal is probably going to die from its disadvantage before it can reproduce.

Secondly, it is entirely possible to have ordered results that have nothing to do with any intelligence. Natural processes alone can produce order that might seem, at first, to be the work of some intelligent agent. But it is not so, and the processes can be explained.

For example, why is it that when you open a box of cornflakes that all the big ones are on the top and all the little ones are at the bottom? It's because moving the box causes the cornflakes to shift around a bit. This opens holes. And the holes will start out small. Thus, the small bits will fall through them before the larger pieces. The end result is a box of cornflakes where the small bits are at the bottom.

So, is there anyone here who thinks I am wrong?

Nice discussion. Another example, and a simple one at that, would be oil and water. Like things attract and one discovers the oil separate from the water. This exemplifies the intermolecular forces which create order.

Someone else suggested minerals as naturally occurring, yet highly organized materials. Another superb example! Consider the tetrahedral shape of silicates and the laminae of mica. Indeed, salt has a cubic structure. All these tertiary structures are naturally occurring. Infact, a snapshot of water exhibits a crystalline structure due to hydrogen bonding.

In biological organisms we have ordered proteins - beta pleated sheets, etc. that provide a tertiary structure able to interact with other biological entities. See the similar post concerning prion proteins.

The processes of order are well known, understood and are used in everyday life.

M
 
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AV1611VET

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AV! Thanks for the welcome my friend. I have thought of you often in the past year (all good!). It is good to see you :)

Happy new year!
Thank you, my friend!

God bless you, and have a very happy new year!
 
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Wedjat

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Atheists have invented multiverses to try to explain away a finely tuned universe that allows life to exist. They now are trying to say there are millions of universes and eventually some universe was going to "get it right".
Nice job on the blanket statement thrown over a strawman, I'm sure that makes him feel nice and cozy.
 
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MoonLancer

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An atheist will invent whatever it takes to explain a phenomenon.

Need more time? Invent eons.

Need more space? Just move the boundaries.

Then spend the rest of your life trying to fill in the gaps in the name of progress.
How funny it is that you have it backwards

I assume you the phenomena you speak of is evolution?

well deep time came about in 973-1037 and later in the 1700s. That's before the idea of evolution.
 
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