Evolution is a Fact

Sanguis · Nov 22, 2009

albomofo said:
Allow me to say again. I am not a creationist.

also rna/dna are not life. They are the building blocks of life.

The building blocks of life, yes. Watch the video I just posted.

genetic material are the building blocks of life in the same way that lego bricks are the building blocks of Legoland.

It's impossible to build this:

If you first don't build this:

If we have two "possibilities", the first is that some mystical, omnipotent being created the bricks, a being of which there's absolutely no evidence for, the other possibility is that the brick formed naturally (Ok, lego's a bad example, because lego is produced, but it's just a metaphor, don't look too deeply into that.), through natural processes that there's plenty of evidence for, which is logically, a lot more likely?

(It is worth nothing, however, that the Biblical account of creation says God made man instantly, without having to make the "bricks" first, or piece them together. Essentially, he created Legoland without making the bricks.)

AintNoMonkey · Nov 22, 2009

epic vid. good post.

Sanguis · Nov 22, 2009

AintNoMonkey said:
epic vid. good post.

Thanks. I'm surprised managed to find it, or type coherently enough. I'm 3/4 of my way through a bottle of vodka.

Thistlethorn · Nov 22, 2009

albomofo said:
When?? To my kwonledge it has never happened.

Didn't you read the link I gave you? It's right there.

albomofo said:
The latest journal on this subject says scientists hope to do this within the next ten years.

Which latest journal? Where did you get this information?

albomofo said:
I am Not a creationist either!! Do not take me for a simpleton you can shout down.

/Edited: Fair enough. You raise a lot of creationist talking-points, though.

albomofo said:
You ask me for evidence, I ask the same of you!

And I gave it to you in the link in my previous post.

albomofo said:
Jesus came and told us this is what happened. The new testament is a historical document. thats My evidence.

That's not evidence. That's hearsay. So, what's your evidence?

gipsy · Nov 22, 2009

Sanguis said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjOqWkV1_tk

CDK FTW!

Watching and learning things like the theories in the movie are really amazing. If I'd believe in a god, I'd be awed by the kind of planning it must have put in the creation to allow such wonderfull things to happen. If I compare this to a god simply poofing everything into existance, I'd say shame on such a loser of a god ...
I'd say, if you want to believe in a god, then believe it's a being who created all these incredible mechanisms and not one fat loser simply saying "let there be light".

Sanguis · Nov 22, 2009

Yeah, the Bible isn't evidence for anything other than human gullibility.

laconicstudent · Nov 22, 2009

albomofo said:
"But it did happen. Those saying that it didn't are lying creationists. "

When?? To my kwonledge it has never happened. The latest journal on this subject says scientists hope to do this within the next ten years. I am Not a creationist either!! Do not take me for a simpleton you can shout down. You ask me for evidence, I ask the same of you!

Unfortunately, Evolution happens. http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899

albomofo said:
Sorry you wont like this at all but:

Originally Posted by
God Created life.

Evidence please.

Jesus came and told us this is what happened. The new testament is a historical document. thats My evidence.

No. That's an appeal to authority.

Meshach · Nov 22, 2009

Sanguis said:
The building blocks of life, yes. Watch the video I just posted.

genetic material are the building blocks of life in the same way that lego bricks are the building blocks of Legoland.

It's impossible to build this:

If you first don't build this:

If we have two "possibilities", the first is that some mystical, omnipotent being created the bricks, a being of which there's absolutely no evidence for, the other possibility is that the brick formed naturally (Ok, lego's a bad example, because lego is produced, but it's just a metaphor, don't look too deeply into that.), through natural processes that there's plenty of evidence for, which is logically, a lot more likely?

(It is worth nothing, however, that the Biblical account of creation says God made man instantly, without having to make the "bricks" first, or piece them together. Essentially, he created Legoland without making the bricks.)

And when you veiw "lego land" do you come to the conclusion that it came about by mindless random mutations? Can one square inch chip of a lego block encode the information in over seven billion Bibles like one square inch of DNA can? Where does that information come from?

Ursie · Nov 22, 2009

Thank you for the lively discussion folks. It is always enlightening to see how possible it is to have a discussion. Usually, on topics so hotly debated, the fact is that they cannot be debated effectively without someone getting testy. Thaumaturgy, I am not a science, nor do I intend to become one so that I can effectively debate you. I am not, however, uneducated. I am simply not educated in the same fields as you.

However, given the lack of familiarity of all the correct terms and the reasons behind them, I will concede that you have the upper hand in the debate.

I will not however, concede that you are right. I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt. All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this, no matter how much you wish it were so.

I hope you all enjoy your time debating this issue. For myself, I regret the waste of time.

AintNoMonkey · Nov 22, 2009

Sanguis said:
Thanks. I'm surprised managed to find it, or type coherently enough. I'm 3/4 of my way through a bottle of vodka.

Not my substance of choice (i prefer a more...evolved? intoxicant), but well played. Way to put those organic molecules to their best use.

MoonLancer · Nov 22, 2009

Ursie said:
I will not however, concede that you are right. I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt. All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this, no matter how much you wish it were so.

You would rather be created from a pile of mud? btw you got here because your parents had sex, and a life form known as Ursie was born and learned to be self aware as she aged. If your not open to facts that's intellectual suicide. Might as well curl up in a fetal position and repeat over and over what you want to be true.

Nathan Poe · Nov 22, 2009

Ursie said:
Thank you for the lively discussion folks. It is always enlightening to see how possible it is to have a discussion. Usually, on topics so hotly debated, the fact is that they cannot be debated effectively without someone getting testy. Thaumaturgy, I am not a science, nor do I intend to become one so that I can effectively debate you. I am not, however, uneducated. I am simply not educated in the same fields as you.

No reason why you can't be -- you don't need a PhD to learn the basics.

My field's not even science, and I've learned plenty just from these boards.

However, given the lack of familiarity of all the correct terms and the reasons behind them, I will concede that you have the upper hand in the debate.

It's not about being a good debater (which many creationists are), it's about having the facts straight.

I will not however, concede that you are right. I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt.

More like a monkey's distant cousin -- would you be interested in learning more about the actual science behind evolution?

All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this, no matter how much you wish it were so.

What makes you say that?

I hope you all enjoy your time debating this issue. For myself, I regret the waste of time.

Sorry you consider an attempt to learn a "waste."

gipsy · Nov 22, 2009

Ursie said:
Thank you for the lively discussion folks. It is always enlightening to see how possible it is to have a discussion. Usually, on topics so hotly debated, the fact is that they cannot be debated effectively without someone getting testy. Thaumaturgy, I am not a science, nor do I intend to become one so that I can effectively debate you. I am not, however, uneducated. I am simply not educated in the same fields as you.

However, given the lack of familiarity of all the correct terms and the reasons behind them, I will concede that you have the upper hand in the debate.

I will not however, concede that you are right. I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt. All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this, no matter how much you wish it were so.

I hope you all enjoy your time debating this issue. For myself, I regret the waste of time.

Wow ... what you're saying can be compressed into "you're not saying what I want to hear, so I've only wasted time" ... if this is what you believe your "god" is telling you to do, then I'm really sorry for you.
I was raised as a christian and I attended church almost every week, but never I was told not to listen to other opinions. If this is how your church is treating you, I'm truely sorry for your lack of understanding of christianity ...

AintNoMonkey · Nov 22, 2009

Ursie said:
I will not however, concede that you are right. I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt. All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this, no matter how much you wish it were so.

This is merely an argument from incredulity. You don't KNOW how you got here! Particularly since you haven't studied the mechanisms of evolution. You're acting like a child.

"Ursie, you are here because of evolution! Here's the evidence!"

"NUH-UH! I DON'T 'BELIEVE' THIS, SO IT'S NOT TRUE!"

Pathetic.

I implore you, please, oh please, at least look at the evidence. Spend a week or two just trying to learn the arguments. Then decide. If nothing else, you'll come away knowing better how to defend creationism. But if all goes well, you'll come out understanding why people are calling evolution a fact these days. Learning never hurts. So please go learn!

MoonLancer · Nov 22, 2009

Meshach said:
And when you veiw "lego land" do you come to the conclusion that it came about by mindless random mutations? Can one square inch chip of a lego block encode the information in over seven billion Bibles like one square inch of DNA can? Where does that information come from?

no no no, do the watch one.

laconicstudent · Nov 22, 2009

Ursie said:
However, given the lack of familiarity of all the correct terms and the reasons behind them, I will concede that you have the upper hand in the debate.

I will not however, concede that you are right.

Interesting conclusion. You admit that you are clearly in a losing position, but still think you must be right?

Ursie said:
I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt.

You know the process by which God created and know how to refute all the evidence to the contrary? Do tell.

Ursie said:
All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this

I hate to prove you wrong.... but:

Journal of Evolutionary Biology - Journal Information
Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli â€” PNAS
Evolution of Penicillin-Binding Protein 2 Concentration and Cell Shape during a Long-Term Experiment with Escherichia coli -- Philippe et al. 191 (3): 909 -- The Journal of Bacteriology
Mechanisms Causing Rapid and Parallel Losses of Ribose Catabolism in Evolving Populations of Escherichia coli B -- Cooper et al. 183 (9): 2834 -- The Journal of Bacteriology

Blood -- Red blood cell changes during the evolution of the sickle cell painful crisis

Evolution of HIV Resistance Mutations in Patients Maintained on a Stable Treatment Regimen After Virologic Failure

Presence of a mitochondrial-type 70-kDa heat shock protein in Trichomonas vaginalis suggests a very early mitochondrial endosymbiosis inâ€‰eukaryotes â€” PNAS
A mitochondrial-like chaperonin 60 gene in Giardia lamblia: Evidence that diplomonads once harbored an endosymbiont related to the progenitor ofâ€‰mitochondria â€” PNAS
Mitochondrial Evolution -- Gray et al. 283 (5407): 1476 -- Science

The Ardipithecus ramidus Skull and Its Implications for Hominid Origins -- Suwa et al. 326 (5949): 68 Data Supplement - Author Summary -- Science
The Pelvis and Femur of Ardipithecus ramidus: The Emergence of Upright Walking -- Lovejoy et al. 326 (5949): 71 Data Supplement - Author Summary -- Science
The Great Divides: Ardipithecus ramidus Reveals the Postcrania of Our Last Common Ancestors with African Apes -- Lovejoy et al. 326 (5949): 73 Data Supplement - Author Summary -- Science
Reexamining Human Origins in Light of Ardipithecus ramidus -- Lovejoy 326 (5949): 74 Data Supplement - Author Summary -- Science

ScienceDirect - Trends in Biochemical Sciences : Metabolic symbiosis at the origin of eukaryotes

Evolution of the vacuolar H+-ATPase: implications for the origin of eukaryotes â€” PNAS
LETTERS

I'm sorry. But no, you are flat out wrong. The quantity of objective science in support of Evolutionary Theory borders on the obscene.

Ursie said:
, no matter how much you wish it were so.

See above. Humans have filled libraries with the research that supports Evolution. You may deny its existence if you wish, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

Cabal · Nov 22, 2009

Ursie said:
Thank you for the lively discussion folks. It is always enlightening to see how possible it is to have a discussion. Usually, on topics so hotly debated, the fact is that they cannot be debated effectively without someone getting testy. Thaumaturgy, I am not a science, nor do I intend to become one so that I can effectively debate you. I am not, however, uneducated. I am simply not educated in the same fields as you.

However, given the lack of familiarity of all the correct terms and the reasons behind them, I will concede that you have the upper hand in the debate.

He's going to remain in that position though until you learn the actual facts and science behind evolution.

I will not however, concede that you are right. I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt. All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this, no matter how much you wish it were so.

It's really not a matter of wishing. And no offence, but given your ignorance of science and how it's conducted, you're really not in a position to state whether it's objective or not. Science has no attachment to evolution, it's the theory that fits the observations best. An extreme focus on creationism however can make one dependent on its statements in order to justify one's faith, which is a precarious position to be in.

I hope you all enjoy your time debating this issue. For myself, I regret the waste of time.

How do you think the people you were discussing with feel after you just essentially state "well actually I don't know much about this topic but YOUR WRONG"?

laconicstudent · Nov 22, 2009

I must confess, I've never actually seen such a severe confirmation bias articulated quite so plainly.

Pwnzerfaust · Nov 22, 2009

Meshach said:
And when you veiw "lego land" do you come to the conclusion that it came about by mindless random mutations? Can one square inch chip of a lego block encode the information in over seven billion Bibles like one square inch of DNA can? Where does that information come from?

The problem is, legos aren't self-replicating, so they don't experience mutation and natural selection. This has been stated dozens of times before.

laconicstudent said:
I must confess, I've never actually seen such a severe confirmation bias articulated quite so plainly.

I have, once. I spent upwards of four hours providing evidence for evolution and refuting creationist arguments for a friend of mine who's a literalist YEC, only to have her tell me, after all that, that no matter how much evidence for evolution there is, she refuses to believe it. And she's not stupid, either.

Really a disheartening thing to see a mind so wasted.

Sanguis · Nov 22, 2009

Ursie said:
Thank you for the lively discussion folks. It is always enlightening to see how possible it is to have a discussion. Usually, on topics so hotly debated, the fact is that they cannot be debated effectively without someone getting testy. Thaumaturgy, I am not a science, nor do I intend to become one so that I can effectively debate you. I am not, however, uneducated. I am simply not educated in the same fields as you.

However, given the lack of familiarity of all the correct terms and the reasons behind them, I will concede that you have the upper hand in the debate.

I will not however, concede that you are right. I know how I got here, and it wasn't because a bunch of muck, turned into an ameoba, which turned into a fish until finally I became a monkey's aunt. All the 'facts' in the world will not convince me because there is no objective science going into any of this, no matter how much you wish it were so.

I hope you all enjoy your time debating this issue. For myself, I regret the waste of time.

It's quite clear you don't even remotely understand anything you've been trying to refute. Everything you said there makes about as much sense as trying to cool a can of beer in a volcano. I highly recommend doing some impartial research in the things that you don't understand, such as evolution, or abiogenesis. I can promise you that it won't be a waste of time, and you'll come out the other end a lot more educated in everything about biology that you clearly don't understand.

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