The Court in Revelation 11:2

Tyndale said:

LLoJ, which of the translations would you say follow the greek more accurately?

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I have found that Rotherham's is very good though it uses a different text than the KJV [I believe it uses the same text the NASB uses]. It uses way too many punctuation marks though....

You can compare that version with others here along with 3 of the greek texts.......

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

LittleLambofJesus said:

I agree, but then I view all of Daniel and the Olivet Discourse as fulfilled. The question is, if that is true, what else is left?

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I do not see it fulfilled.. now I do see where people over the centuries have pointed to the prophecies and seen something that they could identify with the prophecy, but what is about to transpire will make all of that which has passes pail in comparison to what is coming to pass.

THe outer court has two very distinct items, and they are the sacrifice altar and the laver where the priests wash before entering into the Holy Temple.

Symbolically the sacrficial altar is where Yeshua died for our sins.. aka the cross.. which many believers still cling to.. and do not travel very far in understanding from it... [not arguing that it shouldn't be the key to our faith]

Symbolically the laver is like the baptism before entering into Temple of God. ...and these two symbolic steps all christianity agree upon... both are necessary and are the foundation of all chrisitanity's faith.

THey are both made of brass the symbol of sin.. and they are both in the outer court. They are the first step of faith.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

I believe just like it was in the days of Moses, when it is time to break the snake on the cross, for it has become an idol in itself, and people have lost sight that God is leading us into more understandings and wisdom and we should not still be in the elementary teachings... but spiritually maturing. I athink we will find it in the Holy Temple of God in Heaven where our High Priest has invited us to come hither... in visions and dreams to deeper understandings of His Word... beared deep and pushed away as too Jewish. [not that there is rubbish in Judaism too that Yeshua warned us against]

The reason that those that were in the temple are marked and that they are protected is because of what they believe vs those in the outer court. THat is why you find most of the gentiles in the outer court... they don't get the messages God has prepared for His people..

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK0.htm#S11But the court which is without http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK20.htm#S2081the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:

Wasn't Peter given power to preach unto the Gentiles when he preached the first sermon to them in the house of an Italian soldier named Cornelius:

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in EVERY nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted of him" (Acts 10:34-35).

LittleLambofJesus said:

That is where you and I disagree

Luke 21:20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies then be ye knowing! that nigh Her desolation.
21 Then they who are in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains, and they in midst of Her let be coming out! and they who are in the fields no let them be entering into Her; 22 that days of avenging these are to be ful-filled all the things having been written.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye flee ravine of mountains of Me, that He shall touch to ravine of mountains to 'Atsel, and ye flee as which ye fled from faces of the quake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes YHWH, Elohiym of me, all of holy ones with Thee. [1 Thess 3:13]

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The verse that you quoted from Matthew, and the bowls of God's wrath which are to be poured out are two separate events. The attack on Jerusalem was exclusive to the Jews, it was part of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel. The bowls of God's wrath which are yet to be poured out will fall upon a world which has finally and totally separated itself by God, and gone to kill His people.

Tyndale said:

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK0.htm#S11But the court which is without http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK20.htm#S2081the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:

Wasn't Peter given power to preach unto the Gentiles when he preached the first sermon to them in the house of an Italian soldier named Cornelius:

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in EVERY nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted of him" (Acts 10:34-35).

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... until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled...

visionary said:

... until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled...

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...which has been fulfilled

Stryder06 said:

The verse that you quoted from Matthew, and the bowls of God's wrath which are to be poured out are two separate events. The attack on Jerusalem was exclusive to the Jews, it was part of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel.

The bowls of God's wrath which are yet to be poured out will fall upon a world which has finally and totally separated itself by God, and gone to kill His people.

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That depends on one's view of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation being the same event or not

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015/http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7276015&page=2
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

LittleLambofJesus said:

That depends on one's view of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation being the same event or not

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015/
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

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Not necessarily, it's more about understanding which events are the same, which ones have come to pass, and which ones are yet to come.

Stryder06 said:

Not necessarily, it's more about understanding which events are the same, which ones have come to pass, and which ones are yet to come.

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How much of the Olivet Discourse do you feel is fulfilled? Just curious

Another interesting word that is unique is #4930 which is used only 6 times.

It occurs only in Matthew of the Gospels and 1 time in Hebrews though #4931 is another variant of it.

The prefix "sun" is used before the root word.

Strong's Number G4930 matches the Greek συντέλεια (synteleia), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "tell us when? shall these be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age"?

Hebrews 9:26 Since it was binding Him ofttimes to be suffering from down-casting of world, now yet once upon together-finish/sun-teleia <4930> of the ages, into a setting aside of sin through His sacrifice, hath He been made manifest;

LittleLambofJesus said:

How much of the Olivet Discourse do you feel is fulfilled? Just curious

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I've never heard of this Discourse, what Gosples are they from?

Stryder06 said:

...which has been fulfilled

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I would love to have a new thread just on the subject of how one could see the time of the gentiles being fulfilled... and what evidence there is ..via what we see around us.. and in scripture...

Tyndale said:

I've never heard of this Discourse, what Gosples are they from?

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Olivet discourse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Olivet discourse is a biblical passage found in the Synoptic Gospels of Matthew (24), Mark (13) and Luke (21). It is known as the "Little Apocalypse" because it includes Jesus' descriptions of future events, the use of end times language, and Jesus' warning to his followers that they will suffer tribulation and persecution before the ultimate triumph of the Kingdom of God.[1]

It occurred just prior to the narrative of Jesus' passion beginning with the Anointing of Jesus. In the narrative is a discourse or sermon given by Jesus on the Mount of Olives, hence the name. According to most scholars, the versions of the discourse in Matthew and Luke are based on the version in Mark

LittleLambofJesus said:

How much of the Olivet Discourse do you feel is fulfilled? Just curious

Another interesting word that is unique is #4930 which is used only 6 times.

It occurs only in Matthew of the Gospels and 1 time in Hebrews though #4931 is another variant of it.

The prefix "sun" is used before the root word.

Strong's Number G4930 matches the Greek &#963;&#965;&#957;&#964;&#941;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945; (synteleia), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "tell us when? shall these be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age"?

Hebrews 9:26 Since it was binding Him ofttimes to be suffering from down-casting of world, now yet once upon together-finish/sun-teleia <4930> of the ages, into a setting aside of sin through His sacrifice, hath He been made manifest;

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Just so we're on the same page, you're talking about Matthew 24 right?

visionary said:

I would love to have a new thread just on the subject of how one could see the time of the gentiles being fulfilled... and what evidence there is ..via what we see around us.. and in scripture...

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I don't think another thread is necessary. Just look at the time specified in the book. They are to tread it for 42 months, not until the messiah returns. What else is suppose to happen for 42 months?

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Now 42 months equals 3.5 years, and 3.5 years equals 1260 days. From comparing these verses we can see that the gentiles in question are those who will (have) persecute(d) the saints.

Please see post #5 above.

Bible2 said:

Greetings.

The outer court of the temple is the main idea of Revelation 11:2a,
which refers to the outer court of a third Jewish temple which the
ultra-Orthodox Jews will build on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
When they are subsequently attacked and defeated by the
Antichrist (Daniel 11:22), he could force them to hand over the
outer court to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al
Aqsa Mosque at the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume
worship there. (The ultra-Orthodox Jews could have destroyed the
Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque and built the outer court
of the Temple to cover the entire Temple Mount.)



Revelation 11:2b doesn't refer only to the outer court of the Temple,
but to the entire holy city of Jerusalem being trodden under foot by
the Gentiles for 42 months, the same 42 months as the world-reign
of the Antichrist, the beast (Revelation 13:5-7). The treading down
of Jerusalem by the Gentiles in Revelation 11:2b is the same future
treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Luke 21:24.



Actually, Revelation chapters 11 and 13 have never been fulfilled
(just as all the rest of Revelation chapters 6-22 has never been
fulfilled), just as the tribulation and second coming of Jesus in Luke
21 (and Matthew 24 and Mark 13) has never been fulfilled.

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Hello,

Well I don't think I choose the proper words in saying that the outer court wasn't the main point, and I appreciate you pointing that out. However the rest of your post is subjective, and would honestly require another thread. I'm not a believer in the idea of an anti-christ power ruling the world for 42 months. Nor do I believe that the Jewish people are going to rebuild the temple or anything of that nature.

God told Daniel that Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

With the death of Christ and the stoning of Stephen, the Jewish people cut themselves off from Christ as His special people. At the end of the 490 years the message went to the gentiles and now we are neither jew nor greek, rather all of us are called and have been chosen to spread God's word.

Stryder06 said:

I'd suggest looking at the following. The court isn't the main idea of Revelation 11:2, rather the time that it shall be tread underfoot. Compare the 42 months to Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:6, 14

This time has come and gone.

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Greetings. The Court is the subject of this topic though and that is all I want to discuss on this thread for now.
If it is located just outside the Sanctuary, wouldn't that in some ways denote the Court where the Laver and Altar of Sacrifice is? Where were the Sacrifices performed in the NT as that is rarely, if ever, shown being performed? Thanks......

Matthew 26:3
Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the Court/Fold/aulhn <833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas

Revelation 11:2
and the Court/Fold/aulhn <833> within/*out of the Sanctuary, be thou Casting-Out/ek-bale <1544> (5628)! out-side/exw <1854>, and no her thou should be measuring............

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.



.

Stryder06 said:

I don't think another thread is necessary. Just look at the time specified in the book. They are to tread it for 42 months, not until the messiah returns. What else is suppose to happen for 42 months?

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Now 42 months equals 3.5 years, and 3.5 years equals 1260 days. From comparing these verses we can see that the gentiles in question are those who will (have) persecute(d) the saints.

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Interesting how you tie "gentiles be fulfilled" with the 42 months of Rev 11... What do you think had been happening for the last 2000 years when the gospel of Christ has been in gentile hands and understanding? Is that not the time of the gentiles? You see I believe we need to discuss this further and in a separate thread.

visionary said:

Interesting how you tie "gentiles be fulfilled" with the 42 months of Rev 11... What do you think had been happening for the last 2000 years when the gospel of Christ has been in gentile hands and understanding? Is that not the time of the gentiles? You see I believe we need to discuss this further and in a separate thread.

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Greetings.

How does the Messianic denomination view that Court and does it have any relation to the Olivet Discourse [which I view as fulfilled btw]? Thks.

Luke 21:5 And certain saying about the Temple that to stones ideal and devoted-things it hath been adorned He said.......

Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

I can not speak for MJ because as you know we are a very diverse lot... what I can say is that...

Zechariah 3:8
" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men, symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

Colossians 2:17
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Rev 11:2 talks about the outer court which is where the people there are not receiving the last seal from God, it is given over to the gentiles, and it is where you find the persecuted being executed. Symbolically, they are the beheaded souls that cry under the altar.

Several things can be gathered from these two verses... one it is better to get spiritually to the place where you are in God's temple worshipping Him. Second, there comes a time when it is not safe to be in the outer court worshipping.

What is the difference between these two groups of believers? I took a look at all the articles in the outer court and saw that they were those two main focuses of christianity. .. that of the sacrifice of Christ and baptism.. all symbolically there... in the temple is another focus, that I am sure the mature in Christ are to reach.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

What I found in the inner Holy sanctuary is the shewbread table, the menorah, and the altar of incense before the veil that separates the holy from the most holy. the shewbread is where you find the twelve loaves of bread, symbolically representing the twelve tribes, and also the bread of life, the Word of God. The menorah is the holy spirit, the seven churchs, the seven angels, seven stars...

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The altar of incense... is where prayers are offered up...

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

I believe that Revelation will have a reality soon... those in the temple have heeded the call... come up hither.... in vision...

Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 17:1
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

Just as the two witnesses are given the scroll to eat and with this new understanding of what is soon to come to pass... they "witness" rather than prophesy, because it happens that rapidly.

Revelation 10:11
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Remember the Lord promises that nothing come to pass that he has not already told his people first.

Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.