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Just to once again bring home the point of the opening post, here is yet another report of an outrageous bombing incident. Imagine storing explosives, including suicide vests as reported elsewhere, in a school for young children and brainwashing them into believing that indiscriminately killing people is somehow justified.
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From the BBC, July 13, 2009:
Deadly blast in Pakistani village
Officials say a large quantity of explosives were involved.
At least nine people, seven of them children, have been killed in an explosion at a house in Punjab province in Pakistan, hospital officials say. Police said explosives appeared to have detonated in the home of a cleric who taught religious education to children.
Police say about 50 people were hurt in the blast near Khanewal south-west of Lahore. Many other houses collapsed.
District co-ordination officer Kamran Khan said that the blast went off in a teacher's house, where Koranic lessons for children were regularly held. Mr Khan said: "The blast was heard over a vast area and from the extent of damage it has caused it looks like a large quantity of explosives was involved. "The people of the village say they saw a flame rise to the sky and then the ground shook like in an earthquake."
Police say there was an ammunition dump in the home located in the Mian Channu area of Khanewal district. But officials said they do not know what caused the explosives to go off. Diggers uncovered a steel trunk from the debris of the house which contained pamphlets, CDs and audio tapes. The tapes were said to be mostly of sermons by clerics linked to the banned Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LJ) group, a Sunni extremist organisation close to the Taliban and heavily involved in sectarian killings in Pakistan.
The BBC's M Ilyas Khan in Islamabad says this would suggest the arms dump belonged to Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and that the place was being used by the militant group to indoctrinate children.
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From the BBC, July 13, 2009:
Deadly blast in Pakistani village
Officials say a large quantity of explosives were involved.
At least nine people, seven of them children, have been killed in an explosion at a house in Punjab province in Pakistan, hospital officials say. Police said explosives appeared to have detonated in the home of a cleric who taught religious education to children.
Police say about 50 people were hurt in the blast near Khanewal south-west of Lahore. Many other houses collapsed.
District co-ordination officer Kamran Khan said that the blast went off in a teacher's house, where Koranic lessons for children were regularly held. Mr Khan said: "The blast was heard over a vast area and from the extent of damage it has caused it looks like a large quantity of explosives was involved. "The people of the village say they saw a flame rise to the sky and then the ground shook like in an earthquake."
Police say there was an ammunition dump in the home located in the Mian Channu area of Khanewal district. But officials said they do not know what caused the explosives to go off. Diggers uncovered a steel trunk from the debris of the house which contained pamphlets, CDs and audio tapes. The tapes were said to be mostly of sermons by clerics linked to the banned Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LJ) group, a Sunni extremist organisation close to the Taliban and heavily involved in sectarian killings in Pakistan.
The BBC's M Ilyas Khan in Islamabad says this would suggest the arms dump belonged to Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and that the place was being used by the militant group to indoctrinate children.
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SiderealExalt
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My guess is if it involves admitting that there are peaceful, law abiding, loving folk who are faithful Muslims in the world. They won't admit to it. To do so would undermine the image they wish to make.
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humblemuslim
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To call a duck a duck is not an attack, it is identification.
There is no verse that says all non-muslims are liars. The verses are specifically speaking of certain groups of nonbelievers.
To call a duck a chicken would be mistaken identification. If you want to call it an "Attack" so as to make it sound worse than it really is, go ahead. The word is not necessarily an incorrect description, but it is a purposely negative chosen one.
Much like if I call a person a pansy rather then a pacifist. If you prefer to select the nasty synonym that is fine, but it does not necessarily show well.
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humblemuslim
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Man oh man are they going to be disappointed when they get to heaven. Considering that not a single Qur'an verse supports this conclusion it is their own fault for being gullible.
Neither gender receives 72 virgins according to the Qur'an. The verses that speak of pure companions do not speak of sexual intercourse, which is no doubt the thoughts of those who would be gullible enough to trust someone telling them they will get 72 virgins in the first place. Impure thoughts lead to impure actions. Case and point --> Perverted thoughts ---> Suicide and murder.
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Montalban
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The Houri (wide-eyed virgins) are mentioned in the Koran
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who kept their duty will be in a place secured.
SHAKIR: Surely those who guard (against evil) are in a secure place,
044.052
YUSUFALI: Among Gardens and Springs;
PICKTHAL: Amid gardens and watersprings,
SHAKIR: In gardens and springs;
044.053
YUSUFALI: Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other;
PICKTHAL: Attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.
SHAKIR: They shall wear of fine and thick silk, (sitting) face to face;
044.054
YUSUFALI: So; and We shall join them to fair women with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes.
PICKTHAL: Even so (it will be). And We shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes.
SHAKIR: Thus (shall it be), and We will wed them with Houris pure, beautiful ones.
044.055
YUSUFALI: There can they call for every kind of fruit in peace and security;
PICKTHAL: They call therein for every fruit in safety.
SHAKIR: They shall call therein for every fruit in security;
044.056
YUSUFALI: Nor will they there taste Death, except the first death; and He will preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire,-
PICKTHAL: They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell,
SHAKIR: They shall not taste therein death except the first death, and He will save them from the punishment of the hell,
And in Suras 55:46-78
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
Which is the reward you get promised here...
004.074
YUSUFALI: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
PICKTHAL: Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
SHAKIR: Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
009.111
YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
SHAKIR: Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
Unless of course, you believe that there's a different reward as well as the Houris?
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humblemuslim
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My objections to the common/stereotypical understanding that some people joke about:
1. No where is 72 mentioned in relation to the pure companions.
2. No where is intercourse mentioned. Just because someone is said to be a virgin does not mean their purpose is to relinquish it.
3. I have yet to see a mention that would dictate an understanding of men receiving women only. In other words, every verse proposed to have the meaning that men will receive pure women as companions can easily be extended to mean the righteous will receive righteous companions.
Let's look at the literal translation of 44:54 as an example:
Qur'an Literal Translation 44:54 said:
Arabic:
http://submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat44_files/44_54.gif
Let us take a look at the verse's meaning. For the sake of time I am going to quote a transliteration:
Kathalika wazawwajnahum bihoorin AAeenin
Kathalika => Thus
wa => and
zawwajnahum => We will Marry them
Important to note that "zawwajna" can also indicate to companion, to pair, to mingle with, and so forth.
bihoorin (This is the word being understood to mean female/woman/etc.) => To have eyes with white portion intense white and black portion intense black; [...] Intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous blackness of the iris. Pure and clean intellect; Purity and beauty. As regards the word Hur in its feminine connotation a number of commentators, among them Al-Hasan of Basra, understood it as signifying the righteous among the women. The term can apply to the righteous of both sexes.
AAeenin => Eye/Look/Lovely/Wide-Eyed/Lovely black eyed
I am using "Dictionary of The Holy Qur'an (Arabic-English)" by Abdul Mannan Omar to retrieve this information.
So the perverse understanding that some people are talking does not agree with the verse's meaning. Are companions mentioned? Yes. In the way people make it sound? No.
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humblemuslim
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It refers to the gullibility of those who believe others without reading the Qur'an themselves or coming to their own understanding and just blindly following that of others.
You can find the story of Adam and Eve according to the Qur'an (The link also has some Hadith quoted so be aware of that) in the link provided. No talking snake in the Qur'an account.
The Story of Adam (All parts) - The Religion of Islam
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humblemuslim
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Where is the number 72 mentioned in the Qur'an?
The "unique" position that no one seems willing to challenge...I wonder why. Laziness? Agreement? Doubt? Whatever the case may be, I am not going to change my view until I see a convincing argument. "The Hadith says so" is not one for the reasons I continue to repeat:
1. Where does God support *INSERT SPECIFIC HADITH*?
2. How can someone who calls themselves a muslims honestly take the word of man over the word of God?
3. The Hadith not only contradicts the Qur'an, it contradicts itself in many places where Hadith have been deemed "Unauthentic". Who is to say for sure the ones considered "Authentic" are any more true?
So is the rest of my argument agreeable to you? Disagreeable? Why or why not?
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I am not going to argue with you on your 'Quran-only' belief, although I do hope you spare some thoughts on the possibility that the same hadith you wish to omit 'may 'and possibly 'are' the true sayings of the same Prophet that you loved. In this case, you could possibly say the Prophet was wrong?
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Montalban
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I welcome your comments here.
I for one don't believe HumbleMuslim's views - that he promotes as being that of 'Islam' are necessarily of the majority. However I do understand that there's a group within Islam that rejects all the Hadith. Though I can't recall now what they're called.
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humblemuslim
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Well it does in one understanding of the verse. The Arabic words are not quite so strictly adhering to that meaning. Refer to post #389. If you have questions, ask and I will do my best to address them.
Well for me all details mentioned are important to challenge if I do not agree with them. If the number is not important, then it should not be mentioned in the argument to begin with. I agree, the number of virgins is irrelevant.
Few reasons -
1. The Hadith is not consistent with itself.
2. The Hadith is not consistent with the Qur'an.
3. The Hadith was collected after the prophet passed away without the express desire for it to be collected in the first place. This means the prophet was not around to verify anything. Not to mention the amount of time the elasped between the death of the prophet and the collection of the Hadith is not known for certain. More time would yield more problems.
4. The Hadith is a collection of hearsay. Some collectors were more strict than others in what they accepted, but none-the-less many strange, contradictory, and outrageous passages still made it through.
5. The Qur'an and God do not endorse any specific Hadith, or the Hadith in general although some verses are used to attempt this link.
These are my main reasons. Some of these reasons are better than others, but this is why I do not bother myself with the Hadith. I feel my time is much better suited studying the Qur'an and what God has revealed to us.
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humblemuslim
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I consider the possibility, but the shear effort required to honestly undertake the Hadith would divert my attention away from the Qur'an. That is something I am not willing to do. There is much study I need to do with the Qur'an first before concerning myself over anything else requiring as much effort as the Hadith would. The language barrier and massive nature of the collection would make the task not only daunting, but with questionable benefit at the end of the labor.
The prophet was a messenger and human, we agree on this. So as to not idolize him, I can very well accept that he might, and did in fact, error in his lifetime. The Qur'an mentions it.
Qur'an English Translation 66:1 said:
The prophet delivered the Qur'an to humanity which was delivered to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel which was given to him by God. The Scripture in which there is no doubt, which we agree on.
Qur'an English Translation 2:2 said:
Therefore, I find that I would rather spend my time with the Scripture where there is no doubt rather than rummaging through a far more massive collection of passages full of doubt.
I must be clear. I have no problem with Hadith that hold agreement with the Qur'an, much like I have no problem with Old Testament passages that hold agreement with the Qur'an. Or New Testament passages. Or Veda passages. Or anything else claiming Spiritual Truth.
As for things the Qur'an remains silent on, I believe these things are fine to follow (Including very specific steps to Prayer), yet if these details were required by God, surely God would have said so in the Qur'an.
As for those that disagree with the Qur'an, well obviously I do not accept them
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