Feeling really anxious and sad

RachelZ · May 20, 2009

Hey all...hope you are all doing at least a bit better today. Went for a therapy session yesterday and one of the things that came up is that as a child it seems I was prolly stopped from saying how I felt about stuff that was going on - some of that was prolly out of a sense of wanting to protect me from myself...ie if you react to unjust treatment you'll get more of the same and worse. As a result I don't allow feelings but they get stuck and result in anxiety. The thing is I woke this morning I think it was and just keep thinking that if that is the case maybe that explains all the anxiety I get especially re. my relationship. ie I can't allow the real negative feelings so they result in confusing anxiety. Now I'm just thinking that that proves that although the anxiety is abnormal the negative trigger is real. I feel horrible and sad...I feel like there is no solution to my issues...I feel like there is a conviction about this that is saying it isn't just OCD. Most people here seem to say despite how they're feeling that they know deep down the thoughts aren't real and that a positive reality is actually the truth...why can't I say this? I feel so sad. Sorry...thanks for reading...take care, Rachel

Caty · May 20, 2009

Rachel I can't say much that I've felt the same way, I'm kinda over the thoughts now but I think that you do know the thoughts are not from you. Anxiety can make us think our "feelings" are real. I'll pray for you. Do you think that anxiety can make us have feelings we fear, I know that it plays off of fear, but can it make us have feelings we fear??

kaykay9.0 · May 20, 2009

Hi, Rachel,

And yes, I'm still posting...after my supposed retirement!

:o

Here's the deal, I think~ Yes, there are things in most all of our pasts that have influenced how we react to things today. Things that cause reactions that are not related to OCD. Everything is NOT OCD. We ARE, after all, complex people who are a lot more than the sum of our OCD struggles.

That said, I have interacted enough with you just here on the internet to know that you do struggle with OCD and no, I'm not "diagnosing" here,:o but actually I think you struggle with it pretty badly. (When I was seeing a psychiatrist, he explained that in his opinion OCD tended to be on a spectrum from very mild to very severe.)

So I'm not sure exactly what is upsetting you here, but IF I'm reading you correctly you are concerned that your relationship issues are NOT OCD, but real. To this, I would just say that the issues and feelings may have some root in reality, and there may be some things that you and your husband can and should work on. This is true for most every marriage. But I think your fear about your marriage being out of God's will, somehow is PURE OCD.

The way I view this is like most other "OCD issues." They have some grounds in truth or reality, but then the OCD takes that and distorts and/or exaggerates it to the point that it becomes nonsense and error.

ObsessedButBlessed · May 20, 2009

Actually Rachel, I think you are right: you don't allow negative feelings, and you get anxious if you feel them, because you think you shouldn't feel them, and feeling them is indicative that there is a bigger problem. This causes more anxiety and obsessing about whether or not the feelings actually mean something.

This is what I have been trying to reiterate all along! Placing emphasis on feelings - ANY feelings, but especially negative ones - just reinforces their importance. It creates anxiety, worry and doubt. Why do I feel this way? Does it mean that something's wrong? Does it mean x, y or z?

Exposure is great and I am a big fan of it but I believe the bigger component to overcoming OCD is acceptance. You must allow yourself to feel negative things. Like, one of my biggest anxiety and ruminating triggers with the relationship obsessions were if I felt annoyed with my husband. I thought that if I felt annoyed then that was an indication that I didn't love him. And the more I focused on whether or not I felt annoyed, the more annoyed I felt. And the more I was convinced or scared that it meant that I didn't really love him, our marriage was all wrong, and I'd be forced to get a divorce.

So I ALLOWED myself to feel annoyed with him. I'd say "alright, I accept the feeling of annoyance. I will still act lovingly, but it's ok that I feel annoyed. No big deal." NO BIG DEAL. It suddenly became not a big deal. And then... walla. I wasn't feeling annoyed anymore. And what was that? Happiness? Feelings of love? Whoa. It actually worked.

I really think the key is just allowing yourself to feel these feelings. So you feel anxiety? Ok, no big deal. You feel it. Accept it. Let it be there without making a big deal out of it. Of course there is the ruminating component with it... I think there are several strategies that can work with obsessing. I like playing the Gotcha! game that I have explained before... when you catch yourself obsessing, tell your OCD you caught it, thanks for the warning, but I'm going to focus on the topic of my choice right now. It takes some practice, but it works. Or, the "worry time" trick: telling your OCD that you'll worry about it at 8:00 pm for 30 minutes. Then you can worry about it all you want at that time, but not until then, and not after then.

Yeah, you don't allow feelings. Of course you don't! I was the same way. Feelings are convicting, even though they shouldn't be. But we make them out to be SO important and truth-indicative, when they are just plain old feelings.

I'm serious about this acceptance stuff. It is everything that Claire Weekes talks about. It seems silly, it seems like it won't work, but the more you practice it, the more it works. When your brain is sensitized like it is in a terrible OCD state, these feelings seem monumental and overwhelming. But working with acceptance will de-sensitize your brain.

Come on, try it. What have you got to lose?

I know you will say "but when I try to do that, then I get a doomed feeling of it being not OCD and reality!" So what? It's another feeling. Accept it. Accepting it doesn't mean it's true or reality. It just means you're not fighting it, not making it important anymore, not emphasizing it. You feel it. You allow yourself to feel it, and you move on.

keryakos · May 20, 2009

express them rachel lie is too short not too of course be carefull to hurt anyone but when you are angry you can say what you mean ..you are allowed in fact holding back does cause anxiety

RachelZ · May 20, 2009

Thanks everyone...you guys are truly amazing! I guess when I said I don't allow negative feeligns and they get stuck in anxiety I was saying what I kinda think the therapist might be getting at...whether it's true or not...well I'd like to say I dunno but actually it may well be. If I even get a bad thought looking at a photo of someone I love eg they don't look that nice in the picture, then I have in the past spent ages focussing on the picture trying to neutralise the thought and feeling pretty anxious to boot. The therpist didn't say it exactly as I have...but I think the jist was that I can't allow certain feelings or reactions and then it results in for example the horrible feelings I get in my arms. (Sorry that was a load of clarifying there...can you tell I'm anxious or what! LOL!)

Caty thanks...and in response to your question I think anxiety prolly can generate feelings we then fear. Certainly I have wondered sometimes if the feelings have come on before the thoughts!

Hey KayKay...someone on the radio yesterday I think it was said we don't retire, God retyres us! That's not to say I don't respect your decision...just thought it was quite a good quote. I totally believe that sometimes God moves us on from things sometimes...maybe it's your time to be retyred here or elsewhere...I dunno...all I can say is it's lovely to have you around as long as you feel you can be. Thanks for your encouragement. It helps that you feel I do have OCD and that you see it as being pretty bad. It's hard to be objective when you're in the middle of it. What you say makes perfect sense and is, as ever, a balanced perspective. It's funny but it feels like you and ObsessedButBlessed know me better than a lot of people over here do...thanks for you input...I will try and allow it to sink in.

Hey ObsessedButBlessed...how did you know I would react like that to a suggestion of acceptance? Like I just said to KayKay, you know me well!! I will try...otherwise what's the point in seeking your advice and you giving up your valuable time to give it? My body is saying "no, it's not OCD, don't hide from reality!" What gives me a glimmer of hope is that it seems that your body and mind have done the same thing and yet you fought it and won! If nothing else I'm gonna commit to just trying to act lovingly despite the anxiety...just for tonight...please pray for me that I will be strong enough and that I will somehow be able to find a way to trust God as being loving and patient. That is so hard too...God is either a terrifying person who despises me or I have a terrible picture of Him...I hope the latter is the truth!

Thanks Keryakos...I value your post especially because I know you're really struggling! I agree that it is right to be honest when it's needed without hurting people unnecessarily!

Thanks again...I really value you people here...thank You God for all these people...take care, Rachel

kaykay9.0 · May 20, 2009

Praying for you, Rachel. :prayer:

And yes, I am still trying to get off the forum! I left another forum about 2 years ago and it took me about 2 weeks to wean off that time! LOL! Let's just say that I guess I don't go "cold turkey!" ^_^

ObsessedButBlessed · May 20, 2009

RachelZ said:
Hey ObsessedButBlessed...how did you know I would react like that to a suggestion of acceptance? Like I just said to KayKay, you know me well!! I will try...otherwise what's the point in seeking your advice and you giving up your valuable time to give it? My body is saying "no, it's not OCD, don't hide from reality!" What gives me a glimmer of hope is that it seems that your body and mind have done the same thing and yet you fought it and won! If nothing else I'm gonna commit to just trying to act lovingly despite the anxiety...just for tonight...please pray for me that I will be strong enough and that I will somehow be able to find a way to trust God as being loving and patient. That is so hard too...God is either a terrifying person who despises me or I have a terrible picture of Him...I hope the latter is the truth!

I am not sure anyone here could say with full 100% confidence and NO DOUBT that they believe their problems are related to OCD. Otherwise we wouldn't have OCD. We'd convince ourselves it's OCD and we wouldn't be anxious about it anymore, you know?

Don't get too worried if you find yourself trying to accept feelings and then getting freaked out, or if you find yourself resisting the feelings without realizing it. This stuff takes practice. I started out by simply saying to myself "I accept this feeling of __________". When I would get worked up or feel anxious, I'd stop and remind myself "I accept that it's ok to feel anxiety." I absolutely worried that it wasn't OCD and I was just in denial or kidding myself or delaying the inevitable. But every time that question popped up in my head, I'd tell myself I'd answer it later. I wasn't going to try and figure that out right now... I was just going to focus on the present, work on accepting my feelings, and so on. See, when you're in this state and your nerves are sensitized to these feelings and thoughts, you can't distinguish reality vs. OCD. It's important to not to, either, because doing that just re-emphasizes the thoughts and feelings as something to pay attention to. Make room for the feelings, but don't overvalue them.

As always, I think taking Dr. Weekes' advice is the way to go.

RachelZ · May 22, 2009

Thanks again for your replies...hey KayKay if truth be told I think we prolly need that weaning time too...it would have been very hard to lose you suddenly!! Thanks for your prayers!

Thanks ObsessedButBlessed...it helps to hear how you dealt with it not just cos of the helpful advice but cos it is reassuring to hear someone else describe what I go through! Yes Dr. Weekes did seem to have her head screwed on didn't she...sorry if that's not an American saying...it means she talked sense! Do you mind me asking and no worries if you do, did you find the OCD stuff more difficult when the thing you were freaking out about may have had an essence of reality about it? What I mean is those things that may not be 100% perfect in a relationship making you feel like that proves it's not right and stuff like that? Prolly asked you that before...sorry if I have.

Take care and hope you and KayKay have a great weekend...Rachel

ObsessedButBlessed · May 22, 2009

RachelZ said:
Thanks ObsessedButBlessed...it helps to hear how you dealt with it not just cos of the helpful advice but cos it is reassuring to hear someone else describe what I go through! Yes Dr. Weekes did seem to have her head screwed on didn't she...sorry if that's not an American saying...it means she talked sense! Do you mind me asking and no worries if you do, did you find the OCD stuff more difficult when the thing you were freaking out about may have had an essence of reality about it? What I mean is those things that may not be 100% perfect in a relationship making you feel like that proves it's not right and stuff like that? Prolly asked you that before...sorry if I have.

Take care and hope you and KayKay have a great weekend...Rachel

Aren't all obsessions a little rooted in reality? I mean, it's very realistic that my marriage isn't perfect - no marriage is. And it's very realistic that my relationship with Christ isn't perfect - no relationship is (on my end, not His!) But I know what you are asking. If we had a fight or disagreement while I was in the middle of OCD, yeah it made it that much worse and that much more convincing. If something wasn't going perfectly then yes it made the feelings more intense and the worries more unbearable.

Not having OCD much about my relationship now allows me to see those things at surface level - disagreements, an imperfect relationship (which is good, I argue, because it challenges us and allows us to grow both in maturity and our relationship) - these are things that normal people in long term relationships deal with. Did you know that on Monday, it was my birthday and my husband forgot to wish me happy birthday? LOL! I was kind of grumpy about it! But I teasingly reminded him and I was able to move on from it once he apologized. Birthdays were always very important in my family when I was growing up so it truly is a NEED for me for my husband to make a big deal out of my birthday. It is just very important for me. But you can bet your buckets that if I was obsessing about it I would have had a much harder time letting it go. We just tend to see things through OCD goggles that turns small mistakes and accidents into large catastrophes.

Yesterday, I was listening to some secular music and I spiked about not being a Christian because I was listening to it. That steamrolled into something bigger. For maybe an hour or so I battled the thoughts and feelings about not being saved and obsessing if God abandoned me. Here is how I got around it - first, I prayed that God would show is grace and mercy to me because I have sinned throughout the day. Then I asked the Holy Spirit to guide me through these feelings and remind me of the Gospel of forgiveness and assurance of our salvation. After I finished praying, whenever I spiked or got a bad feeling, I started saying "I accept the feeling of being unsaved. I will live in the uncertainty of my salvation," then focused back on the baseball game I was watching. Within maybe half an hour, the thoughts had lessened and I was focusing less on my emotions. Every time I caught myself thinking about it or checking how I felt, I said "I accept this feeling of uncertainty, and I will focus on the task at hand." This morning I feel right as rain.

It's a LOT easier for me to get through these situations now that I have been practicing it for awhile, but it does take some determination. You can totally do it!

RachelZ · May 24, 2009

Hey ObsessedButBlessed, thanks for your reply and sorry it took a little while for me to get back to you on it...it helps to know that you experienced something along the same lines. I'm so please that you're managing to apply the ERP etc and that it's helping...a huge well done to you for that!! Oh and also, Happy Birthday for Monday...I hope you ended up having a nice day! I can understand what it is you're doing when the OCD spikes flare up, ie alowing them and living with the uncertainty...I just struggle to know how to really do that myself. Even as I had just sat down at the PC to come on here it came back to me what I felt the therapist might be saying is the case and my intepretation of that - ie that if he thinks I have squished feelings down and they've then come out as anxiety then doesn't that mean it's not OCD it's me squishing unpleasant feelings to do with unpleasant things and then feeling anxious rather than dealing with reality. If that's the case then it's not OCD I'm dealing with it's anxiety brought on by supression. That freaks me out re. the ROCD - it also totally doesn't help me work on the God stuff...don't know whether that's scrupulosity or what. I fear that my life is allways going to be stuck in a place of unproductive fear and stuckness...(not quite a proper word but it'll do!) I don't know if this will make sense or not but I think about this stuff and I kind of feel lightheaded. The idea of my worst fears being true and/or the idea of attempting to live as if my worst fears are OCD leave me feeling like someone has just told me some terrible news that my brain can't quite compute. I listen to people like you and KayKay...Seajoy, mitzi when she was around, annerobert, pj and JayAngel and I'm sure others as well so apologies if I've left you out...and I just wonder how I can ever get to a place where I can trust God's loving kindness enough to talk like you guys talk. I'm afraid of treatment in case I ignore my concience and God's voice but I'm also afraid of living a life in which I look back on and have regrets and sadness. I want to be a proper Christian...one who is walking closely with God...one who is useful and who He would feel He could call a friend. How can I have that kind of relationship with Him when I'm so afraid of Him? When My concience and sense of conviction and dread are such that I had to give up reading daily bible reading notes cos I would get so anxious. I worry that the OCD is all an excuse...that if I try and live as if I had it then God will be angry that I didn't do more with my life but used excuses and fear to get out of holy living. How can I trust that God will be OK with me when, as RobertZ has posted elsewhere, there are passages where it talks of Him laughing at sinners when they meet with judgement? I can understand that hell is the consequence of sin...it says God doesn't want anyone to perish...so how can He laugh at people who do? When my son has to be discpiplined he may deserve it but I would still much rather not do it and certainly wouldn't laugh at His misery. I'm not saying I'm better than God...I just don't get how I can rest in His mercy when part of His character is such that He can laugh when people die in their sins. Now I'll feel guilty for speaking bad of God...I can't win!! Sorry God.....

Sorry...gone on as ever...thanks again for replying...hope you're having a lovely weekend...take care, Rachel

SoldierOfSoul · May 24, 2009

Thanks SoldierOfSoul...really appreciate your reply. I just wish I had your conviction. I just feel I am somehow wrong...that somehow there is something not right that needs to be put right. In order for me to trust God I have to also trust a. my interpretation of scripture, b. my discernement of what is my conscience and what is not and c. my ability to be guided by and hear the Holy Spirit. I trust none of those things so how can I trust God? Thanks again...take care, Rachel

I will not let you get away so easily Rachel! Lets get to the bottom of this. You believe Jesus died for your sins, that He is God almighty who came in the flesh, died, and rose again on the third day right? Yes, sure you do, so what more can you do, He has done it all already! (this is the foundation of your faith)

Your OCD will get you to continually doubt everything in your walk with Christ, but you must come to the realization that He is in control of your walk with Him and not you.

I don't mean to seem like I know your situation and what you are going through, I don't. But I do believe that the most important possible thing in the world after we receive Jesus into our hearts is to completely rely on His finished work on the Cross. There is nothing that we can add to our salvation other then having faith in all that He has done for us.

As for your thoughts, I believe we must do as the bible says and bring all thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ in our lives. If something is against the gospel of Christ we must reject that thought and replace it with what the Word truly says. As for your interpretation of the scriptures that is the Holy Spirits job and not ours, if when you are reading a certain passage and a thought pops in your head that you know does not go with the rest of the bible it is not from the Holy Spirit. You must rely on your foundation in Christ as your interpretation of the Bible, He is meek, peaceful, loving, longsuffering, merciful, He hates sin, loves the sinner, loves the Father, loves the Holy Spirit, loves His sheep and most importantly loves you!

If your mind wants to interprete the scripture in a way that takes from these attributes of our Lord then you know that it is not from the Holy Spirits leading.

Your conscience is faulty because of your disorder that you suffer from, but the Holy Spirit will lead you as to what will glorify Christ and what will not. You will make it Rachel! Jesus did not promise us a easy race, but I pray that His peace will guide you in all that you do. God bless you!

kaykay9.0 · May 25, 2009

RachelZ said:
Hey ObsessedButBlessed, thanks for your reply and sorry it took a little while for me to get back to you on it...it helps to know that you experienced something along the same lines. I'm so please that you're managing to apply the ERP etc and that it's helping...a huge well done to you for that!! Oh and also, Happy Birthday for Monday...I hope you ended up having a nice day! I can understand what it is you're doing when the OCD spikes flare up, ie alowing them and living with the uncertainty...I just struggle to know how to really do that myself. Even as I had just sat down at the PC to come on here it came back to me what I felt the therapist might be saying is the case and my intepretation of that - ie that if he thinks I have squished feelings down and they've then come out as anxiety then doesn't that mean it's not OCD it's me squishing unpleasant feelings to do with unpleasant things and then feeling anxious rather than dealing with reality. If that's the case then it's not OCD I'm dealing with it's anxiety brought on by supression. That freaks me out re. the ROCD - it also totally doesn't help me work on the God stuff...don't know whether that's scrupulosity or what. I fear that my life is allways going to be stuck in a place of unproductive fear and stuckness...(not quite a proper word but it'll do!) I don't know if this will make sense or not but I think about this stuff and I kind of feel lightheaded. The idea of my worst fears being true and/or the idea of attempting to live as if my worst fears are OCD leave me feeling like someone has just told me some terrible news that my brain can't quite compute. I listen to people like you and KayKay...Seajoy, mitzi when she was around, annerobert, pj and JayAngel and I'm sure others as well so apologies if I've left you out...and I just wonder how I can ever get to a place where I can trust God's loving kindness enough to talk like you guys talk. I'm afraid of treatment in case I ignore my concience and God's voice but I'm also afraid of living a life in which I look back on and have regrets and sadness. I want to be a proper Christian...one who is walking closely with God...one who is useful and who He would feel He could call a friend. How can I have that kind of relationship with Him when I'm so afraid of Him? When My concience and sense of conviction and dread are such that I had to give up reading daily bible reading notes cos I would get so anxious. I worry that the OCD is all an excuse...that if I try and live as if I had it then God will be angry that I didn't do more with my life but used excuses and fear to get out of holy living. How can I trust that God will be OK with me when, as RobertZ has posted elsewhere, there are passages where it talks of Him laughing at sinners when they meet with judgement? I can understand that hell is the consequence of sin...it says God doesn't want anyone to perish...so how can He laugh at people who do? When my son has to be discpiplined he may deserve it but I would still much rather not do it and certainly wouldn't laugh at His misery. I'm not saying I'm better than God...I just don't get how I can rest in His mercy when part of His character is such that He can laugh when people die in their sins. Now I'll feel guilty for speaking bad of God...I can't win!! Sorry God.....

Sorry...gone on as ever...thanks again for replying...hope you're having a lovely weekend...take care, Rachel

This business about God laughing about a sinner going to hell? Robertz is interpreting a passage from Proverbs which is actually, if you read it, personifying "wisdom" not God. If you read it in context you will see what I am saying. It is written as a literary device. It's basic concept is about the folly of spurning wisdom. Proverbs is all about wisdom. I think it is a reaaaaaaal stretch and I have argued with Robertz about this repeatedly to extrapolate that this is saying that God is laughing at people who spurn salvation. On the contrary, Ezekiel 33, I believe, says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they should turn and live. Of course, it's possible that I could be wrong. It has happened once or twice.... but in this case let me just put it this way...I have struggled with OCD too and I find many scriptures passages "scary" but this is NOT one of them because I am pretty confident in what I think in this case about what this passage is about.

RachelZ · May 26, 2009

Thanks SoldierOfSoul and KayKay...sorry I didn't reply before...haven't had a chance to.

Thanks for your response SoldierOfSoul...I appreciate what you're saying and I agree in my head that my salvation is down to God not me. My gut feeling though is that there is something wrong that I need to fix. I think I can say I believe I'm saved...hopefully...but the bible does speak of people entering heaven like someone who only just escapes the flames of hell. And even if I'm saved I don't want to live my life under God's wrath. I worry about things I've done and I also worry about getting interpretation of scripture right. I know people say it doesn't really matter that one church has different beliefs to another as long as Jesus is the central point. But I think there is a radical difference if you chosse to live you life for example as a charismatic as opposed to a presbyterian. (Sorry don't know if American presbyterians are the same as Welsh ones but the Welsh ones don't believe the gifts are still for today.) I worry that I'm somehow not in God's will and I don't seem able to feel his love and mercy. I know the treatment is just accept the feelings but if it's not OCD but my inner conscience at work then that is a dangerous path to take.

Hi KayKay...thanks for your take on this...I haven't gone and looked up that verse yet but I hear what you're saying. I guess though that even if it is not talking about salvation, God still laughs at the misfortunes of people. I should read it though before I comment further. I think all this just gets caught up in the ROCD stuff and then it all seems such a confusing mess. I have my therapy appointment today so at least I can clarify with him what set this all of. Blagh...wish there was a smiley for banging your head against a brick wall!!

Thaks again...hope you both have a fab day...take care, Rachel

Ames x · May 26, 2009

I will be praying for you Rachel x

kaykay9.0 · May 26, 2009

RachelZ said:
Thanks SoldierOfSoul and KayKay...sorry I didn't reply before...haven't had a chance to.

Thanks for your response SoldierOfSoul...I appreciate what you're saying and I agree in my head that my salvation is down to God not me. My gut feeling though is that there is something wrong that I need to fix. I think I can say I believe I'm saved...hopefully...but the bible does speak of people entering heaven like someone who only just escapes the flames of hell. And even if I'm saved I don't want to live my life under God's wrath. I worry about things I've done and I also worry about getting interpretation of scripture right. I know people say it doesn't really matter that one church has different beliefs to another as long as Jesus is the central point. But I think there is a radical difference if you chosse to live you life for example as a charismatic as opposed to a presbyterian. (Sorry don't know if American presbyterians are the same as Welsh ones but the Welsh ones don't believe the gifts are still for today.) I worry that I'm somehow not in God's will and I don't seem able to feel his love and mercy. I know the treatment is just accept the feelings but if it's not OCD but my inner conscience at work then that is a dangerous path to take.

Hi KayKay...thanks for your take on this...I haven't gone and looked up that verse yet but I hear what you're saying. I guess though that even if it is not talking about salvation, God still laughs at the misfortunes of people. I should read it though before I comment further. I think all this just gets caught up in the ROCD stuff and then it all seems such a confusing mess. I have my therapy appointment today so at least I can clarify with him what set this all of. Blagh...wish there was a smiley for banging your head against a brick wall!!

Thaks again...hope you both have a fab day...take care, Rachel

I just can't let this go....I don't believe that this passage indicates that God laughs at people's misfortunes either. Making God be "Wisdom" in this passage is just totally, like I said, before, stretching the literary device of personification. Maybe I wouldn't belabor the point, otherwise, but I think it's important for you to understand this so it doesn't become an additional stumbling block for you in your image of who God is.

RachelZ · May 27, 2009

Thanks KayKay for your concern and for your response. I've looked at the verses properly in several translations and to be honest I'm torn. At one point I was very much inclined to agree with you that it is a literary description of wisdom. It seems like it may be a way of describing how we should seek wisdom before we need it not wait till we are in desperate straits...maybe because it is far less likely that we will have sudden wisdom when we are confused and desperate whereas if we try and attain wisdom when we are calmer it is more likely to sink in and become part of who we are...if that makes sense. Therefore rather than it literally laughing at us it will just seem like that because we can't grasp hold of it. I guess a bit like if we're having problems getting an item say a car to start and we start talking to it and saying "stop being a pain you wretched thing...don't DO this to me...now I'm late!" We know that the car isn't REALLY being a pain or maliciously causing us to be late but it just feels like that cos we're angry. OK so that was my less anxious interpretation...then I read it again and it seemed like maybe it could be starting off talking about wisdom but then it finishes up by applying it to God's call on our lives. When I looked at it like that it did seem like maybe God does get to a stage where He laughs and says "Forget it kid...I gave you plenty of opportunity to go the right way, don't expect my mercy now!"

I truly don't get God...every time I feel a little bit like He might be someone not to just feel terrible about it gets blown away by deep convictions that say He is Holy and Righteous and very hard and to cap it all extremely disgusted with me.

Thanks again...hope you're doing OK and that the weather where you are is not as wet and blustery as it is here...I've heard we're in for a hot summer but this is Britain and I'll believe it when I see four hot days in a row!! LOL. Take care, Rachel

kaykay9.0 · May 27, 2009

I looked at that piece of scripture again, Rachelz, after reading this post to see if there is something I was overlooking, but I still see it as "wisdom" doing the talking here, not God. Yes, I understand that some people would say wisdom=God, but I STILL think this is overstretching the literary device of "personification" here.

Furthermore, when you look at other scriptures such as the one in Ezekiel 33 where God Himself is speaking, not some "literary device" He says that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And we have the familiar one in 1 Timothy in which the scripture states that He wants ALL men to be saved and in one of the Peter letters (dont remember which) where it says essentially that He is longsuffering because he wants ALL to come to repentance. I think these scriptures indicate the heart of God.

I don't plan to argue anymore about it (if I can resist!) but simply to say that I still don't agree with that interpretation and believe it's a mistake to exegete that scripture in this manner.

I think it is difficult to understand God (what an understatement~~as if anyone ever could!) but you know what I mean, about reconciling His love with His holiness. But again, His own description of himself is longsuffering, slow to anger, merciful. I think when tempted to view Him otherwise, we need to bear in mind how He described Himself.

RachelZ · May 27, 2009

Thanks KayKay and to be honest I think you're being wise taking those other scriptures as an indication of what God's heart is like. It would seem more likely that in light of scriptures saying that God doesn't want anyone to perish that the proverbs passage is not speaking of God's heart. Otherwise the bible would be saying that whilst God doesn't want people to perish He laughs when they do which is a contradiction and would indicate an unbalanced mind rather than a perfect God...if that makes sense. Thanks again KayKay...God bless and take care, Rachel

ObsessedButBlessed · May 27, 2009

I don't quite know if "repressed feelings" come out as anxiety. To me that sounds like some pop-psychology, can you imagine if a gay spiker read that? lol - repressed feelings of being gay coming out as anxiety... I guess it can happen but I think the difference between someone who is really repressed and someone who has OCD is the process of "coming out" rather than the need for relief from anxiety. Have you ever felt like if it wasn't for your feelings, everything would be fine? If it just weren't for your darn feelings of anxiety, doubt, fear, guilt, etc., then you'd be able to move on with your life, happy and content? People with "repressed feelings" aren't like that.

It is clear you have OCD.

Did you try accepting the feelings? Maybe you didn't get it right 100%, but were there times you found yourself anxious or obsesing and saying "I accept this feeling of _______?" Even I have had to pull out the stops lately.... something's got my OCD a-twitter lately so I've had to practice, practice, practice acceptance!

Feeling really anxious and sad

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