Being "drunk in the spirit"?

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JimB

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Andrew Strom is a good, honest man of God, I had a talk with him a month or so ago. He came out of all that false stuff, such as Toronto Blessing, Vineyard, etc., etc.

Yes, good videos, and straight to the point.

Andrew has much on his site.

Blessings.

Actually, the Toronto “Vineyard” is no longer a Vineyard, and hasn’t been for almost 15 years. The church is now called Toronto Airport Fellowship. The Association of Vineyard Churches and the Toronto Church decided to part company in 1995 because of a disagreement over the excesses coming out of the Toronto “Blessing.” That’s why in the Vineyard we call it the Toronto Mixed Blessing.

For an objective account of the split, go here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1996/january8/6t1066.html

And for the record, so I will know where you stand, what exactly is your theological/scriptural objection to the Vineyard? What is it, in your mind, that makes the Vineyard “false stuff”? I really am curious.

For the Vineyard USA statement of faith and theological and philosophical statements go here: http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/about/what-we-believe

~Jim
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

 
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Elijah2

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Actually, the Toronto “Vineyard” is no longer a Vineyard, and hasn’t been for almost 15 years. The church is now called Toronto Airport Fellowship. The Association of Vineyard Churches and the Toronto Church decided to part company in 1995 because of a disagreement over the excesses coming out of the Toronto “Blessing.” That’s why in the Vineyard we call it the Toronto Mixed Blessing.

For an objective account of the split, go here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1996/january8/6t1066.html

And for the record, so I will know where you stand, what exactly is your theological/scriptural objection to the Vineyard? What is it, in your mind, that makes the Vineyard “false stuff”? I really am curious.

For the Vineyard USA statement of faith and theological and philosophical statements go here: http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/about/what-we-believe

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

By my experience with John Wimber in 1994!:)
 
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JimB

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By my experience with John Wimber in 1994!:)

Are you saying that you object to the Vineyard as a movement because you had a bad experience with an individual, John Wimber, fifteen years ago? :scratch: John Wimber was not then nor has he ever been "the Vineyard" and not every member of the Vineyard always agreed with him.

FYI, the majority of Vineyard churches and pastors today (me included) were not in the Vineyard during the lifetime of Wimber and the Vineyard of today (for good or bad) is not what it was at the time of Wimber’s death in 1997. Change happens.

~Jim

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
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STRICTLY SCRIPTURE

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I don't have much experience with physical drunkenness to talk about, but there is one instance that stands out in my mind when discussing this. Once at work, I unknowingly had several pieces of birthday cake that had been "washed" with liquor. I noticed that the buzz I got off of it was rather similar to the one I get sometimes when the Holy Spirit is present.

The big difference though, was in how I couldn't just shake it off when I needed to get back to work. It was chemically induced, and apparently had to work it's way through my system... which takes time. Being "drunk in the Spirit" is altogether different, in that the moment you need your senses, or the instant God wants you to go do something for Him (like talk to another person), your mind becomes sufficiently clear enough to do so. There is also typically a rather quick "letdown" as the service is wrapping up, where clarity of mind comes back and driving home is quite safe.

The situation with the liquor filled cake is one I will remember, because that afternoon I had to work on top of a 14 foot ladder. I didn't have that much of a buzz from the alcohol, but every time I tried to just shake it off it wouldn't work the way I'm used to with the Spirit.

When I read about the day of Pentecost and all the apostles being accused of drunkenness, then Peter stands up and delivers a historic sermon; I personally see no evidence that he wasn't "plastered" on the ground just two minutes beforehand. There is no time frame necessary to go from being blitzed in the Spirit to being back in your own right mind. :cool:
Thank you for your reply.The scriptures do not say that anyone was plastered on the ground.:)Why is it that no where in the bible does it teach this,In fact Paul warned about a church full of people speaking in tougues,would look like crazy people if the unsaved walked in.He seemed to want order.Thank you.
 
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STRICTLY SCRIPTURE

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I believe that's the exact same point I was making. It was assumed that the apostles were not drunk in the Spirit because Peter was able to stand up and preach a sermon. But that's not how it works, not in my experience anyway. :cool:

All we know for certain is that he did refute the suggestion that they were drunk with wine. Was that because they were acting drunk with slurred speech and staggering about, or because they were speaking in tongues? From what I recall, the tongues they were speaking were understood as actual languages; which doesn't indicate drunken behavior to me! Maybe they were barking like dogs??? :D

I still say that there is a time and season for everything. God *may* cause people to act drunk, crawl around on the floor, and moo like cows. If people are doing these things out of the flesh, then the results will be evident. But if people are following the Spirit of God, then the results should prove that God had good reason to ask this from His people.

A really big part of leading God's people is the ability to know what God is doing while it is happening, long before the final results are tallied up.
I would have though you would have learned after being a fan of Bentley.:)
 
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STRICTLY SCRIPTURE

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Vineyard is legit man.

The movement has got me repenting, im saved, im on fire for Jesus and i bear fruit for him, i have been a part of healing the sick, casting out demons, prochecying (I thik I have practiced every Spiritual gift so far....) been a part of giving prophetic messages to churches in 3rd world countries, which has lead to 100's being saved.
i have been saved about 18 months as well, in my town the Vineyard is doing okay.

That there is bearing fruit, i don't say it with pride, its just what i have been a part of... i know why it happened, Jesus, without him i or you can't do a thing of value ya know.

God bless you.

check out the the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the sinful nature.
You are to young in the Lord to be wielding gifts.First you must have a solid foundation of servanthood.:)Jesus washed the feet of the disciples,and was one who served.

Philippians 2:5-7
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
 
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STRICTLY SCRIPTURE

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I don't doubt that those who participate in being 'drunk' in the spirit have their hearts set on Christ (intention-wise, that is), but it's my opinion that they are being led astray by false spirits. In this video, the folks here aren't being immoral or anything that would contribute to sin, but why would god want us acting like animals, or have our bodies twitch and convulse, while throwing ourselves on the floor? Perhaps this is extreme, but from what I have read, this is exactly what the 'Toronto Blessing', or 'Father's Blessing' (and whatever 'blessing' you want to call it), is all about.

youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=m2MBKJkFrbM
(obviously, I've had to modify the url due to my low post count. Perhaps someone else can post it if they like).

Here is John Scotland. Is this the type of pastor that I would want ministering to me? This reminds me more of my alcoholic past, and the sinful life before coming back to Christ. It takes him forever to get to the scripture because Scotland is so 'drunk in the spirit'.
youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=pU9ZOINBdi0
(again, url obviously modified)

*note that I'm not saying that these folks aren't Christians, but that they are being mislead by a false spirit.
Good post!I dont see how barking like a dog,and acting like a lower creation glorifies Jesus.Roosters were often used in witchcraft.
 
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JimLandress

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So my fiancée and I have taken issue with things that are going on in our church and places of worship, some people talking about "being drunk in the spirit". I've felt a major check in my spirit over the concept of this, and the phrase alone bothers me. Whenever I hear that I immediately think of Ephesians 5:18. Where it makes a distinction between being drunk and then being filled with the Holy Spirit.

However, we've encountered a few people who continually mention being drunk in the spirit and it just sounds wrong to me. One of our friends claims he's found scripture supporting this. I haven't talked to him personally about it yet so I don't know which scripture he may be referring too but it sounds like it could possibly be a misinterpretation. The whole topic has led to some heated discussions and arguments between my fiancée and a friend of hers as well as myself and one or two others.

What do you guys think?

I agree, I think just because you are in the spirit doesnt mean you connected with god or the light but conected with your higher spirit, wich in turn can contact to god (or others mabey) this is were being drunk in the spirit or half hazard, uncontrolled is probally not very responsible and also could be harmfull to ones health
 
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STRICTLY SCRIPTURE

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I dont see from this passage where people get the idea that they were drunk or slain.They were not even in the temple,where the glory was.Then the glory of the Lord filled the temple,and they could not perform their duties,thats all.Not because they were drunk.

11 The priests then withdrew from the Holy Place. All the priests who were there had consecrated themselves, regardless of their divisions. 12 All the Levites who were musicians—Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives—stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets. 13 The trumpeters and singers joined in unison, as with one voice, to give praise and thanks to the LORD. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang:
"He is good;
his love endures forever."
Then the temple of the LORD was filled with a cloud, 14 and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the temple of God.
 
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Tobias

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I would have though you would have learned after being a fan of Bentley.:)


I still am a fan of Todd Bentley! :cool: And of Samson, King David, Saul, Balaam, Jonah, and everyone else who also has been able to move in the Spirit despite their personal hangups! I imagine we can agree that integrity is a major issue with those whom God chooses to use. Yet for me, it is a matter of letting God be the one to decide who He will use, and for how long He will use them.

I will not cower in the corner because yet another person who was powerfully used by God proved to also be human.
 
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Tobias

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I agree, I think just because you are in the spirit doesnt mean you connected with god or the light but conected with your higher spirit, wich in turn can contact to god (or others mabey) this is were being drunk in the spirit or half hazard, uncontrolled is probally not very responsible and also could be harmfull to ones health

Good point Jim.

Being "drunk in the spirit" is not an experience limited to only Christianity. It is an altered state of consciousness, which we can (if we want) trigger without the Holy Spirit even being present. When done in the flesh, it does detract from what God wishes to do in the service.

That is why I have been capitalizing "Spirit", when talking about being "drunk in the Spirit." God has shown up in so many different ways over the years, and Man has always tried to repeat the circumstances thinking He will come once more. But we cannot command His presence; we can only invite.

So just because there's the fake, doesn't mean that there never was the real. Just because God didn't show up during worship service, doesn't mean that He never has or does show up during worship. Because He didn't show up during the preaching, doesn't exclude Him from anointing the next sermon, or that all sermons in the past never were inspired by Him.

God does use altered states of consciousness sometimes when ministering to us. One result of this is "drunken" behaviour. Just how much we can promote this kind of behaviour and God still plays along, I'm not sure. But there is the real, and there certainly is the fake.

Some fake it, hoping beyond all hope that God will met them there. Others fake it to be seen by men. I will not condemn anyone for taking whatever means they feel are necessary to get in touch with God. And as for those who fake spiritual things to be seen by others, I readily forgive them; knowing that this is one of the great temptations we all have to face in life.
 
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Peaceful Dove

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Slain In The Spirit

Francis MacNutt addresses many of the dangers and misconceptions associated with being slain in the Spirit that some of you mention in this discussion.

The power of suggestion – there are a percentage of people who respond to suggestion strongly, but he doesn’t think that accounts for the majority of people who are knocked out by the Power of God. “… resting in the Spirit cannot be due altogether to the power of suggestion, since people so often fall without ever having heard of it before.” Francis reports that many ministers and some priests, too, were surprised when they saw this happening to people in their prayer gatherings.

Some ministers who need proof of their holiness probably give off that message to folks who comply by falling down. Also, people feel falling is a sign of their holiness and may be tempted by this pride issue to fake fall. Francis recognizes this but concludes:

“…I believe that if the minister of prayer is a committed Christian, with reasonably pure motives, and if the people seeking healing have a basically pure motivation, most of what we see take place will be under the influence of the Holy Spirit—accompanied by the mixture of psychological phenomena that we will always find in our fallen human condition.” p. 26

What is the fruit of being slain by the Spirit?

Francis has received hundreds of letters and personal testimonies of people sharing about the great blessings they felt they received by being overcome by the Spirit. Many report great peace and love and communion with God. Many report receiving instant healings or important revelations. A young woman told me she realized that she should forgive her father and felt graced to do so during the few moments she was resting in the Spirit. She was near tears just telling this story as it was obviously a deeply transforming experience for her.

Deliverance from Evil Spirits – “Most extraordinary of all is when we find evil spirits departing as someone is overcome in the Spirit. As I said earlier, resting in the Spirit is ordinarily quiet and peaceful, but occasionally we see an eruption of demonic resistance.” There is often crying out and convulsions as in Mark 1:26: The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek. …When we pray briefly for people in a healing line, perhaps one in fifty will exhibit such manifestations. Afterward, however, twice that many will report that they felt something “lift off” or “depart” at the moment of prayer, even though there were no outwardly observable signs. p. 64

I witnessed this one time during a Mahesh Chavda meeting in which he had invited Chris Harvey to pray for us. I was standing in a long line with about 3 dozen others. I went down like a ton of bricks when Chris came near me (I don’t even think he touched me). The man immediately to my right fell down beside me and then, to everyone’s surprise (even horror), he began wailing and wailing in the strangest way I’ve ever heard, a mix of wailing and roaring. It was like a deep, supernatural cry, not merely a human cry. Oh my God, it sends chills through me just remembering it. He was clearly being delivered, it felt to me, of some deep torment. I wanted to talk with that man, but he never returned for the rest of the conference. That night, I tell you the truth, I slept in the Spirit for the entire 6 hours of sleep. There is nothing like it…being literally asleep but aware of floating in heaven at the same time. And I felt an incredible peace for a few weeks after that.

Francis writes: “In summary, I find that resting in the Spirit is a marvelous ministry gift that often leads people to experience the love of Jesus, lasting healing and deliverance. Evangelists Charles and Frances Hunter reached a similar conclusion…

“We do not pretend to understand this supernatural manifestation of God’s power…The first time it ever happened to us was shocking! While we were praying for a woman at the alter…she had been touched by the power of God and was lying on the floor. A short time later, this recurred. Again, only once during a service. Then a few months later it happened again. Each time it came as a complete surprise to us. Neither of us felt any special anointing…nothing. Then came February 27, 1973, El Paso, Texas. The power of God fell in a mighty way. The power could be almost heard crackling as a Southern Baptist church had its own day of Pentecost. Somewhere around 100 people fell under the power of God. Probably the most surprised of all the people there were the Hunters. We had never seen anything like this happen in our ministry and certainly couldn’t understand it, but we discovered an interesting fact. God often does a supernatural work in healing, delivering or cleansing while a person is under the power.” p. 73.

As I have said, I go back some 40 years in the Charismatic Catholic Renewal. Back when Frances MacNutt was an active Catholic Priest in the Healing ministry.
Recently, I have sat under his teachings in the School of Healing Prayer.

I have to agree with everything he says regarding being "slain in the Spirit". I have witnessed most of the things he has said that have happened to folks (including mself) while resting in the Spirit. I have received the gift of forgiveness, healing and "words". I have seen much more, including many "calls" from God to the Priesthood and Religious life in the Catholic Church. I have seen many calls to "lay" ministry, too many to even count.
 
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Seeking Him

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So my fiancée and I have taken issue with things that are going on in our church and places of worship, some people talking about "being drunk in the spirit". I've felt a major check in my spirit over the concept of this, and the phrase alone bothers me. Whenever I hear that I immediately think of Ephesians 5:18. Where it makes a distinction between being drunk and then being filled with the Holy Spirit.

However, we've encountered a few people who continually mention being drunk in the spirit and it just sounds wrong to me. One of our friends claims he's found scripture supporting this. I haven't talked to him personally about it yet so I don't know which scripture he may be referring too but it sounds like it could possibly be a misinterpretation. The whole topic has led to some heated discussions and arguments between my fiancée and a friend of hers as well as myself and one or two others.

What do you guys think?
The problem with alot of the churches where these manifestations are happening is that the leadership is part of the New Apostolic Reformation.

This group feels God has raised them up in these days as with a "special anointing" to win the world and it's money for Christ. They are an elitist group. They call themselves "the new breed", and feel they will have more of an anointing than the first apostles. They teach submission to them. The prophesies they give are regularly false, and as Andrew Strom says(he was one of their number and disaffected), they charge money for prophesies, dream interpretation and counseling. The teaching of open portals to heaven where you can meet angels, is only for those who tithe, so they say.

One of them David Herzog teaches that it's better to give money to the those with a special anointing than to give to the poor because you'll reap more in re turn. He says it's good to give financially to rich anointed ministers because the Queen of Sheba gave to Solomon, the richest man at that time, because he was anointed. This is actually in this man's book. Alot of sheep are being fleeced, be careful where you go to church and where you give your money.
 
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STRICTLY SCRIPTURE

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I still am a fan of Todd Bentley! :cool: And of Samson, King David, Saul, Balaam, Jonah, and everyone else who also has been able to move in the Spirit despite their personal hangups! I imagine we can agree that integrity is a major issue with those whom God chooses to use. Yet for me, it is a matter of letting God be the one to decide who He will use, and for how long He will use them.

I will not cower in the corner because yet another person who was powerfully used by God proved to also be human.
What I mean is the barnyard animal noises,the “glory dust”,which is a cheap mylar plastic,goose feathers,seeing and commissioning the “finance angel Emma”,fake gems etc.

Lets not forge the irreverent “kabboom” and kicking people when Bentley “ministers”

He sells cd’s that show you how to go to the third heaven on a guided tour of visualization.

He said Paul appeared to him and told him he wrote the book of Hebrews!And he said Paul lives in a log cabin.:D

He also said that the 2 angels at the tomb after Jesus rose,were commissioned to be a part of his self exalting ministry.

He also said that the tree of life appeared in his living room!

Rememver bro,be wise as a serpent..:cool:

Paul did not brag,or even utter what he saw in the third heaven.Actually he did not even want people to think to highly of him because of all this.Contrary to the “leaders” of todays revivals who brag of their alleged spiritual prowess.

Read 2 Corinthians 12:6 to see the tone of a true apostle!:thumbsup:
 
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enoch son

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What is so funny about being irreverant?:)
To man and his self righteous where the problem with that? Oh thats right how dare me speak agianst that! I'm going back to the bar and to greatest pourer of the drink I know. Pour another one just like the other one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:blush::o:blush: to quote little feat. there a fat man in the bath tub, time for some southern boogie. Look there goes a dixie chicken. Yes Lord i'm willing.
 
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Elijah2

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Are you saying that you object to the Vineyard as a movement because you had a bad experience with an individual, John Wimber, fifteen years ago? :scratch: John Wimber was not then nor has he ever been "the Vineyard" and not every member of the Vineyard always agreed with him.

FYI, the majority of Vineyard churches and pastors today (me included) were not in the Vineyard during the lifetime of Wimber and the Vineyard of today (for good or bad) is not what it was at the time of Wimber’s death in 1997. Change happens.

~Jim


I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Well that's good Jim, I don't keep up with American politics of what a Vineyard is, there could be thousands of versions of vineyard ministries.

But, this is where all stuff came into being, such as being "SLAIN". And as for something that happened to me in 1994 and it took me many years later to discern that the spirit was FALSE, and all the going ons in those days are still going on today, and possibly through the impartation of people like John Wimber and before him, and those who he imparted a false spirit into, as in my case.

It all began again at Toronto, but just a different version, and many others that followed, down to Todd Bentley.

Well, I pray that you are a better version than those that followed John Wimber.

Blessings!
 
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