Q to Messianic Jews: Why do you accept Jesus?

ContraMundum · Jan 2, 2009

Alkhazred said:
OK, I have been informed several times now, that at the time of Jesus there were multiple explanations of signs of Torah concerning Messiah. Let's take it as a fact. But, what about the part of Torah, mentionned in the my first post to gather Jewish people? Jesus never did it, he was preaching the repentance, the charity, and not to think to much about the materialistic things of this world. His sermons were never political.

We'd have to look at the text in detail and secondly we would have to define "gather", and what that means and how it was/will be accomplished.

I can assure you, I am A VERY SERIOUS, G-D FEARING and PEOPLE-ANNOYING seeker. Maybe we can talk about in the private messaging?

I'd be prepared to spend a little time on the matter in PM or here, but you'd have to be patient too.

I would love to read them, but it will take a lot of time to order them, or to find them in France. And, I have to write also similar books of Jewish preachers, otherwise I wouldn't be honest towards G-d. What do you think, am I right? I mean, I was Muslim for 10 years, and I objectively discovered, the first Christians believed in the Resurrection, did the Euchariste and NEVER thought somebody be greater than Jesus (contrary to what Quran tells they believed).

OK...I understand. It will be quite a journey for you, and I must give you one advice: this journey can only be accomplished with prayer.

ContraMundum · Jan 2, 2009

Eben Abram said:
Shalom ALecheim

I hate this answer but in fact, it is a fact.

If you Use a little savy and google each objection, you can get a wealth of opinions....

I seek to only give him the best answers, and they are not found on the "all-knowing" internet. The books I recommended him are top notch for people in his situation.

If I wanted to recommend that a man sift through mountains of unsupervised and pompous opinions written by the unskilled and the mental cases I'd say use Google. But, I don't think anyone serious will find much quality information on there without wasting years of their lives sifting through the confusion and adopting one nonsensical opinion after another only to find them lacking.

I am opposite of the above poster; NEVER think you have to BUY an answer...

It's not about "buying". You pay for your internet time, your computer and your maintanance of the same do you not? Is not finding (borrowing, whatever) a couple of books reasonable in this case?

Perhaps the rule "you get what you pay for" is in order?

This is about quality. If you can find a site that addressed any of his questions to the depth of a book (eg. properly footnoted, discussed in depth, researched and from a perspective of a Jew on top of all that), then by all means put it up!

visionary · Jan 2, 2009

Don't be fooled that the most expensive by the most authoritative with the most degrees has the answers.. Those who were like that in Yeshua's time couldn't see what was in front of their noses... even though they claimed to be the most knowledgeable on the subject.

Observer2008 · Jan 2, 2009

1) concepts are more important before going into conclusion.
what is messiah? orthodox judaism says he is man. traditional christianity says He is God. non-trinitarians say at most he is son of God, only after he was resurrected. the most important christian dogma trinity was changed to triune. since time of wesley, he didnt oppose trinity but also didnt promote it. there are so many important arguments within christianity. speaking of concept of messiah, people of different understanding are speaking to each other like chick speaking to duck, duck speaking to goose.
but on 1 point, they all agree with each other - messiah wl come & save the whole world. without finding a way to gap the conceptual differences, the elected (jewish) & the christians & the messianics can never serve a same God-in-their-head. until the barrier is lifted, messiah wl not come (again).
we all agree it's upto our human preparation.

2) the question left is easy.
is jesus the messiah? all people wl use the NT as testmony. even the orthodox jews are using the NT to criticise christianity, they wont use daVinci code. bcz the NT is the authentic book about jesus. people just need to see if jesus of NT fits into the messianic concept.
but without 1), there is no 2).

Shamash Of Yeshua · Jan 2, 2009

what I say doesn't matter anyhow as I see now. I'm nothing to most people. When someone becomes a lunatic because that person realizes they have lived a pathetic life while claiming to be a believer they are then in hard times. Even if I speak truths no one listens. Guess that is pride speaking in me. That has been for a long time now. None of you know my situation even though I spoke about it.

ContraMundum · Jan 4, 2009

visionary said:
Don't be fooled that the most expensive by the most authoritative with the most degrees has the answers.. Those who were like that in Yeshua's time couldn't see what was in front of their noses... even though they claimed to be the most knowledgeable on the subject.

Well, I saw that coming. LOL

Anyway, vis, this sentiment, although containing some good advice, pretty much works against itself, as all the sources of study used in religion are compiled and written by people who have letters after their names. Your Bible is translated by scholars. It was compiled by scholars. Your word study helps, like dictionaries and concordances, were made and compiled by scholars. Your church history primary sources are found, dug up, compiled and interpreted by scholars before they hit your books.

So, you rely on scholars and authorities with degrees before you even start to dispute their beliefs. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Having said that, I could agree with you but not as a rule. Every case should be taken on its own merit and people who have done the hard yards of study should not be written off simply because they have, nor should the layman who has a sharp mind and open spirit.

Funny, and worthy of note, that you can always count on that old "just because they're lettered don't make 'em right" argument coming from people without degrees or authority- for example, such sentiment is rife in JW literature. It allows them to introduce novel doctrines half-baked on an audience without any correction or oversight from those who have gone before them in the journey of faith. It's always the source of new doctrine and usually ends up in schism.

simchat_torah · Jan 4, 2009

to the OP:

The question is probably moot. To my knowledge there aren't any observant Jews who converted to belief in Jesus on this forum that practice Messianic Judaism. There are a few Christians who may have Jewish ancestory, and one Jew I know of who is now Orthodox... but your question may be aimed at the wrong group.

christianmomof3 · Jan 4, 2009

simchat_torah said:
to the OP:

The question is probably moot. To my knowledge there aren't any observant Jews who converted to belief in Jesus on this forum that practice Messianic Judaism. There are a few Christians who may have Jewish ancestory, and one Jew I know of who is now Orthodox... but your question may be aimed at the wrong group.

Actually, I think that depends on one's definition of what a Messianic Jew is.
I am Jewish, and was raised in Reform Judaism, and whether you chose to judge me as having a non observant background or not is not does not make me any less a Jew.
I am one of the few Jewish members on this board. I was born and raised Jewish and was very active in the Jewish community and went to Jewish camps and was a member of the JCC, BBYO and a Temple Youth group.
I am now a born again Christian, but do not meet with a Messianic Jewish group or practice the Messianic Jewish religion.
From what I understand, most people who are members of that religion as you have indicated, are not Jewish by their upbringing although some claim to have found out they have "Jewish blood" or something, but most of their membership seems to consist of gentiles or those with Jewish heritage who were not raised practicing the Jewish religion or who even knew they had Jewish heritage.

ContraMundum · Jan 5, 2009

simchat_torah said:
to the OP:

The question is probably moot. To my knowledge there aren't any observant Jews who converted to belief in Jesus on this forum that practice Messianic Judaism.

I concur.

christianmomof3 said:
Actually, I think that depends on one's definition of what a Messianic Jew is.
I am Jewish, and was raised in Reform Judaism, and whether you chose to judge me as having a non observant background or not is not does not make me any less a Jew.
I am one of the few Jewish members on this board. I was born and raised Jewish and was very active in the Jewish community and went to Jewish camps and was a member of the JCC, BBYO and a Temple Youth group.
I am now a born again Christian, but do not meet with a Messianic Jewish group or practice the Messianic Jewish religion.
From what I understand, most people who are members of that religion as you have indicated, are not Jewish by their upbringing although some claim to have found out they have "Jewish blood" or something, but most of their membership seems to consist of gentiles or those with Jewish heritage who were not raised practicing the Jewish religion or who even knew they had Jewish heritage.

I also concur here.

Over the years I keep getting the idea :idea:

that being raised Reform would have been more fun than what I had to deal with in the (what some call) the modern Orthodox setting. Hmmm.... Still- all people have a journey, don't we?

Perhaps on that matter it's best not to generalise, as everybody will have a different experience.

simchat_torah · Jan 5, 2009

I apologize ChristianMom. You are probably the only one. Perhaps the thread should have been directed to you alone

And Contra, my apologies as well... I meant Anglican, not Orthodox... though the defining line is thin

Bon · Jan 5, 2009

The Messianic congregation I attend is approximately 40% Jewish believers in Yeshua.
It's interesting because this past Sabbath three of the Jewish memebers were asked to stand before the congregation and give their testimony of how they came to believe Yeshua was the Messiah.
Each persons said the same basic thing. They had no choice in the matter......The scales fell from their eyes.
It was by revelation from God, in the same manner Paul was aprehended by Him on the road to Damascus, that they came to believe in their Jewish Messiah.

ChavaK · Jan 5, 2009

simchat_torah said:
to the OP:

The question is probably moot. To my knowledge there aren't any observant Jews who converted to belief in Jesus on this forum that practice Messianic Judaism. There are a few Christians who may have Jewish ancestory, and one Jew I know of who is now Orthodox... but your question may be aimed at the wrong group.

I was thinking the same thing, but didn't know if it was proper to
bring it up or not.

Where you been, ST?

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY TO ME 1-10-82

ChavaK · Jan 5, 2009

ContraMundum said:
Over the years I keep getting the idea that being raised Reform would have been more fun than what I had to deal with

You mean being observant, following mitzvot, is supposed to be all
about FUN? Boy, have I gotten it wrong then

Actually, being an Orthodox Jew IS a lot of fun....I am sorry you were
raised in an environment where it was not, where it was sterile, dry
observance without meaning or joy....at least that is what I am understanding you to be saying.

MY ANNIVERSARY 1-10-82

ChavaK · Jan 5, 2009

christianmomof3 said:
I am Jewish, and was raised in Reform Judaism, and whether you chose to judge me as having a non observant background or not is not does not make me any less a Jew.

No one is saying you are not a Jew...I think ST was just pointing out
that which is true.

That Jews who convert out generally were not brought up observant.

MY ANNIVERSARY 1-10-82

ChavaK · Jan 5, 2009

Bon said:
The Messianic congregation I attend is approximately 40% Jewish believers in Yeshua.

Then we get in the whole issue of "who is a Jew", and I don't think we
want to go there again.

It's interesting because this past Sabbath three of the Jewish memebers were asked to stand before the congregation and give their testimony of how they came to believe Yeshua was the Messiah.

And I bet you none of them were brought up observant...

MY ANNIVERSARY 1-10-82

Alkhazred · Jan 5, 2009

ContraMundum said:
Who's criteria are they? That is the question. We know these are the current modern day Rabbinic Jewish criteria. As I hinted in my answer- those rather narrowed-down criteria are a post-Jesus filtration of many previous positions within Judaism. At the time of Christ, there were many different understandings of what the Messiah would bring. We believe that Jesus answered them: how we should worship, how we should follow the Law, how we should be holy and what the true Kingdom is. Since those times, the criteria of the unbelievers have become somewhat different, and thus, they ask all the wrong questions, because these questions only represent one possible point of view, which is now become dogma among some Jewish circles.

We, like many ancient Jewish sources concur, believe Messiah will have two advents. Futhermore that while He does even now bring peace to the whole world (the world is free to reject this peace-the current age being a period of grace preceeding final judgment) He will consumate this peace in the temporal sense on His second advent. The third Temple is not a Temple made from hands, but the true Temple that physical Temples only poorly represented, the true Temple being found in Heaven and in the heart and that we believe that He defined how true Torah observance should look, not just for Jews but also for Gentiles, a life of love for God and neighbour that goes far beyond physical observances alone (yet it does not deny physical observances either). Note: Some Messianic Jews, influenced by modern American protestant thought, have a rather chiliastic view of the Second Advent, and while it is not considered heretical, it is a rather new spin on some ancient understandings of the Bible.

This is too big a subject to pursue here, and more than once this forum has been plagued by insincere seekers on this topic, and hence, we tend to be a little cautious when sharing the details of our faith.

I heartily recommend books- not the internet, which any serious enquirer should avoid- on this topic.

Here's some- try , and the most excellent .

Hope they help: see ya in a year or so!

Let's continue, ContraMundum. OK:
1)Build the Third Temple. In Torah it's written "the Holy Place" thus, not clearly the Third Temple. OK, it's accepted.

2)To gather the sons of Israel:
[bible]"5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you.
6I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,"Isaiah 43:5-6[/bible]

3)To bring peace (do you think it says about the Second Coming?):
[bible]4He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.[/bible]

4)From this article, I've understood, that some Jewish scholars interprete this verse as "...the spreading of the knowledge about G-d of Israel."
[bible] 9And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.[/bible]
What do you think it says?

Also, few questions to you:
a)How do you comment the verse of Isaiah
[bible]14Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.[/bible]
Is the word "the virgin" in the Septuagint a wrong translation of the hebrew word "alma" which means "the young woman"? Or maybe, at the time when folks were translating the Hebrew Bible on Greek, it was commented by the Jewish scholars as "the Virgin"? It's an interesting fact, that it were the Jewish specialists, who had translated "alma" as "the virgin", not Christians.

b)What happens to Noahide law, when the person embraces Christianity? It's written in the Torah:
[bible]16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.[/bible]
In my opinion, it means, that the Noahide covenant stays EVEN, when a man embrace Christianity (or THE Christianity, I dunno).

c)What is your opinion about the Biblical critics? As, for example, some Pauline Epistles (1,2 Timothy, Titus, Ephesians)?

I must also admit, that it is practically impossible in my situation to chose logically between the Judaism and the Christianity. Both Jewish and Christian scholars have strong arguments, and to really get it, you should become the Bible specialist, to know the ancient Hebrew, and to get a tonns of information about the historical interpretations. I continue to pray every evening to G-d of Israel, to G-d of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses to guide me to the Truth.

anisavta · Jan 5, 2009

ChavaK said:
Then we get in the whole issue of "who is a Jew", and I don't think we
want to go there again.

And I bet you none of them were brought up observant...

MY ANNIVERSARY 1-10-82

Actually two of my close friends grew up from birth as observant and when young adults came to faith in Messiah.
Those are just two people I know. There are lots of others in congregations all over the world. And both are still Torah observant.

ChavaK · Jan 5, 2009

I must also admit, that it is practically impossible in my situation to chose logically between the Judaism and the Christianity.

Let me make it easy for you

..... choose Christianity.
We Jews do not seek, desire, or encourage converts.

Eben Abram · Jan 5, 2009

Shalom Alecheim

As near as I can find stats, and those are suspect since no one will agree anyways with waht I am about to say though I agree in part with Torahs post on Orthodox.

About 90% of Orthodox Jews who actually leave orthodox judaism (you can agree or argue how many that is, because I won't say in honor of some people I know) do not become Torah Observant or become a part of the Messianic Movement per se, but usually are part of or become part of a Fundamentalist group or Catholicism.

ODD dichotomy, but in 20 years of those who are actually Frum from birth, less than 1% who are still "Christian" go to anything resembling Orthodoxy exception being the Catholics.

Of the Frum from birth those who return to Judaism in any form if you scratch beneath the statitics for a little fact finding meaning a Frum from birth really was an Orthodox Family, then you find a disturbing number become non-jewish religion and non-religious by a whopping margin mainly due to the exodus of Orthodox Jews born in Israel leaving "the fold" so to speak and becoming more Israeli and no religion.

In america, the stats are slanted and having been in Chabad I know why, but the success of Chassidism is in direct proportion to Reform Jews moving steadily toward a type of Orthodoxy that numerically is prevalent on Holy Days, but does not mean a solid community participation as in many burgs or burroughs like New York, Chicago, Ohio, or LA.

The report in the 80's sparked a huge movement to educate Jews in America and led to a "revival: so to speak of Chassidism, but the converse growth of Lesbian and Homosexual activity has also sparked a counter wave of migration from many Jewish Sects in America to a "form of Judaism" that according to one Orthodox Rabbi, Riskin, Orthodoxy must embrace the homosexual Jew and deal with the vast number of Jews who are a silent group in all sects of Judaism today (2008)

Judaism as a whole is shrinking by proportion of Birth to observance and in part due to Israeli intrasigence to allow Orthodoxy more freedom to dictate it's mandates on society there.

People choosing to leave a structured lifestyle do so freedom sake and to do as they want to, people choosing to life a structured lifestyle see societal extremes and prefer the safety and in many wayss, (in AMerica) beauty of Orthodoxy.

The Torah Observant Revival of a quasi-Chassidic Messianic Movement where Beleivers in Messiah become Super Jews or Observant with a Twist of Jesus as an Orthodox added in has failed.

The numbers which admitedly were Severly over-reported with HUGE amounts of Christians from SDA and other Christians Orgs thinking to make a Messianic Chassidic "Y'shua" type hybrid of Hebrew Root and Gentile Orthodoxy into a Messianic Judaism Orthodoxy has dramatically and phenomenally fallen from a well over worked number they claimed in A.T.O.M. in the eighty's to the current drastically smaller number of the Newer T.O.M. group of the 2000's and current trend shows less than a factual number as stats are suspect and the projected Real numbers would make even Torah613 smile.

The Messianic Movement in less than Frum setting has also reduced dramatically from a high point in 1989-91 and now is remarkably well documented as being a minor sectarianism participated in by more Christians than Jews.

Chosen People, and Jews for Jesus oddly remain steady.

Maybe not so odd.

So in regards to Frum, there is a beauty to it that Schneersohn knew how to convey and live, but as for the rest, watch how they reply and you know why thos of us who are Jews know why Frum are less and those who were not Orthodox get "into it" more for lack of education (jewish) than generational sustainability. You can look here on the boards and see those here, are not Frum from birth or from generation to generation.

How that is obvious is more to the heart of what I said the appeal Schneersohn had to so many Jews....

Eben Abram

Of course for some of us, being a Jew, MEANS, dealing with by talking to the Jewish Messiah and Gentile Lord which is not the Rebbe or even a Rabbi but happens to be the son of God and Son of Man, Y'shua.

ALecheim Shalom

christianmomof3 · Jan 5, 2009

Eben Abram said:
Shalom Alecheim

As near as I can find stats, and those are suspect since no one will agree anyways with waht I am about to say though I agree in part with Torahs post on Orthodox.
....

Hmm, that was a bit hard to follow and understand. What is A.T.O.M. and Newer T.O.M.? And quite a few other things in there left me a bit lost.

I did understand some of it though and it seems to me that today's Judaism focuses on being a good person and doing mitzvahs as being the goal of being Jewish rather than any sort of focus on God Himself.

I had never heard of Chosen People - is this the group you are referring to: http://www.chosenpeople.com/main/home.html ?

I enjoyed the music in the video

.

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