Why does god allow suffering to continue?

Ganymede · Oct 31, 2008

As a non Christian I have never understood why Christians can except that an all powerful god, that knows everything and can do anything would allow suffering to continue in the world when he could, should he choose, end it.

He knows its happening, he could prevent it, but he does not. What gives?

PS - in accordance with forum rules, please dont present any rational arguements in defence of Christianity as that would be applogetics, which are not allowed.

RobinRedbreast · Oct 31, 2008

I can give you my personal thoughts if you'd like :angel:

For me, it all ties back into the free will thing. Pesky thing, that free will

It's God-given. He didn't have to give us free will, but He did, for whatever the reason. Personally I think if we didn't have free will, true love (for God, for each other) could never exist, because true love is only born from the freedom to choose love, not from force or some sort of underlying "it's in my nature" type of deal.

So He's given us free will. Now what?

Well, free will means we have the choice to choose. We can choose anything, anything at all; we can choose good, and bad, love, and hate. And we each make these simple-yet-complex choices each and every day in so many things that we do.

Now, let's say that God decides to stop me from doing something bad that I chose to do. Let's say I chose to steal money from my company (I don't know if I should be posting about this from my company computer

). And God said "Whoa, wait a minute... hey, that's bad. I'm not even going to let you do that." And in an instant, I'm basically disallowed from performing my own actions, or the want is stripped from my head, or something changes where I no longer am about to DO that anymore, nor am I even able.

Hmm. Well, wait... God gave us the free will in the first place, but then stripped it from me? *shakes her head* It just doesn't float I'm afraid. In that moment, He would be removing my choice. He can't do that, because He decided already that it is each our gift to make whatever choices we want to make... risking that we will make bad choices, but knowing the wonderous things that can come from us making good choices.

I personally think that it pains God to see what we choose to do with Free Will, but... it was His gift to us. And now it's ours to do what we please. And we really, really mess it up sometimes. :sorry:

But that's our choice.

And in that same free will, people choose to love Him. And that must be an amazing thing for Him, because when we choose freely to love Him and each other, that is the best thing we can do with our God-given choice.

Now, there are some flaws in my logic to some people. People who believe in pre-destination, people who believe free will isn't real, and so on. I can't answer for everyone, nor can I help understand -everyone's- beliefs.

But

I did want to answer your statement, where you said you can't understand why Christians could accept an all powerful God who would allow suffering.

For me? God cannot contradict His order of Free Will in this universe. If He did, it would be like Him admitting He made some sort of mistake... He's perfect, He doesn't make mistakes.

So either He's perfect, and free will is exactly as it should be, or He's not perfect and.. well.. He wouldn't be God.

Again, I have a choice on which to believe, in a sense. Pesky free will

I do choose the former.

I wish I could give you 110% proof of every question you will ever have, but of course I cannot. From my explanation alone, I'm sure you will find a thousand more questions to ask. I do not have the answers you are looking for, I have to admit that

But, I hope you accept my humble explanation of how this one Christian feels regarding the topic, and know that I tried to share my view on it at least :angel:

Protoevangel · Oct 31, 2008

Also, not everyone assumes that suffering is necessarily a bad thing. Suffering produces character, it teaches humility, it promotes compassion, and for one who believes that God is truly in control, it forces us to depend more fully upon Him, and helps us to recognize His presence.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 31, 2008

As a non Christian I have never understood why Christians can except that an all powerful god, that knows everything and can do anything would allow suffering to continue in the world when he could, should he choose, end it.

He knows its happening, he could prevent it, but he does not. What gives?

Greetings. As far as I know the YHWH of the bible never said there would not be suffering, wars, diseases, persecutions etc. In fact JESUS said just the opposite:

Luke 21:23 "Woe yet to the-ones in belly having, and to those giving suck in those, the Days. For shall be great distress on the Land, and Wrath in the People, this;

Reve 9:6 and in the Days, those, shall be seeking the men, the Death, and not no they shall be finding him. And they shall be yearning to be dying, and is fleeing the death from them

RobinRedbreast · Oct 31, 2008

Protoevangel said:
Also, not everyone assumes that suffering is necessarily a bad thing. Suffering produces character, it teaches humility, it promotes compassion, and for one who believes that God is truly in control, it forces us to depend more fully upon Him, and helps us to recognize His presence.

Very good point, there are many who hold this view! :angel:

Crazy Liz · Oct 31, 2008

Ganymede said:
PS - in accordance with forum rules, please dont present any rational arguements in defence of Christianity as that would be applogetics, which are not allowed.

Notice the changed legend at the top of the page. Rational arguments are now allowed.

KCDAD · Oct 31, 2008

I think it part of the dialectic view of everything. Not only is the opposite of suffering only possible by suffering's existence, suffering is made up of relational components that express contradictions within itself. It is this dynamic that makes life and existence possible to be understood and perceived.

Minty · Oct 31, 2008

A friend of mine sent me this graphic the other day about suffering...it made me think:

Ganymede · Nov 1, 2008

Morning~Glory said:
I can give you my personal thoughts if you'd like

For me, it all ties back into the free will thing. Pesky thing, that free will It's God-given. He didn't have to give us free will, but He did, for whatever the reason. Personally I think if we didn't have free will, true love (for God, for each other) could never exist, because true love is only born from the freedom to choose love, not from force or some sort of underlying "it's in my nature" type of deal.

So He's given us free will. Now what?

Well, free will means we have the choice to choose. We can choose anything, anything at all; we can choose good, and bad, love, and hate. And we each make these simple-yet-complex choices each and every day in so many things that we do.

Now, let's say that God decides to stop me from doing something bad that I chose to do. Let's say I chose to steal money from my company (I don't know if I should be posting about this from my company computer ). And God said "Whoa, wait a minute... hey, that's bad. I'm not even going to let you do that." And in an instant, I'm basically disallowed from performing my own actions, or the want is stripped from my head, or something changes where I no longer am about to DO that anymore, nor am I even able.

Hmm. Well, wait... God gave us the free will in the first place, but then stripped it from me? *shakes her head* It just doesn't float I'm afraid. In that moment, He would be removing my choice. He can't do that, because He decided already that it is each our gift to make whatever choices we want to make... risking that we will make bad choices, but knowing the wonderous things that can come from us making good choices.

I personally think that it pains God to see what we choose to do with Free Will, but... it was His gift to us. And now it's ours to do what we please. And we really, really mess it up sometimes. But that's our choice.

And in that same free will, people choose to love Him. And that must be an amazing thing for Him, because when we choose freely to love Him and each other, that is the best thing we can do with our God-given choice.

Now, there are some flaws in my logic to some people. People who believe in pre-destination, people who believe free will isn't real, and so on. I can't answer for everyone, nor can I help understand -everyone's- beliefs.

But I did want to answer your statement, where you said you can't understand why Christians could accept an all powerful God who would allow suffering.

For me? God cannot contradict His order of Free Will in this universe. If He did, it would be like Him admitting He made some sort of mistake... He's perfect, He doesn't make mistakes.

So either He's perfect, and free will is exactly as it should be, or He's not perfect and.. well.. He wouldn't be God.

Again, I have a choice on which to believe, in a sense. Pesky free will

I do choose the former.

I wish I could give you 110% proof of every question you will ever have, but of course I cannot. From my explanation alone, I'm sure you will find a thousand more questions to ask. I do not have the answers you are looking for, I have to admit that But, I hope you accept my humble explanation of how this one Christian feels regarding the topic, and know that I tried to share my view on it at least

Thanks for the reply. 2 things...

1. I don't think there is much biblical support for the free will theory - can you provide some?

2. Free will may apply to suffering among humans but dosent apply to suffering in the animal kingdom or among children that are not old enough to be held responsible for their actions.

Cheers

Ganymede · Nov 1, 2008

Crazy Liz said:
Notice the changed legend at the top of the page. Rational arguments are now allowed.

Unfortunatly not...

This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates

PS - thanks for the reps!

Ganymede · Nov 1, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings. As far as I know the YHWH of the bible never said there would not be suffering, wars, diseases, persecutions etc. In fact JESUS said just the opposite:

Luke 21:23 "Woe yet to the-ones in belly having, and to those giving suck in those, the Days. For shall be great distress on the Land, and Wrath in the People, this;

Reve 9:6 and in the Days, those, shall be seeking the men, the Death, and not no they shall be finding him. And they shall be yearning to be dying, and is fleeing the death from them

Clearly there is suffering - the point is that god can do anything, therefore god can prevent suffereing without any detrimental side effects, but does not.

RobinRedbreast · Nov 1, 2008

Ganymede said:
Thanks for the reply. 2 things...

1. I don't think there is much biblical support for the free will theory - can you provide some?

2. Free will may apply to suffering among humans but dosent apply to suffering in the animal kingdom or among children that are not old enough to be held responsible for their actions.

Cheers

I once wrote a term paper on just that, and I can't find it

I'm so horribly sad, I kept all my college things in a box and it is gone, I hope we didn't lose it in the move :sigh:

The term paper was on the scriptural weight of the ideas of "love" and "sin". The basic idea is that you actually can't by any definition even have love and sin (two well-defined and much-mentioned ideas in scripture), or even right and wrong, without free will.

It's 11pm though and I'm dead tired, I'll have a look for that paper tomorrow. Or maybe I can find some similar material for you online. I really don't like the idea of re-writing a term paper at 5 years after graduation ^_^

Your second question is also complicated, you certainly don't ask the easy ones, which is good

I used to be an atheist, I didn't get to Christianity by avoiding the tough questions

Problem is, I may not be able to answer those questions to your satisfaction

Truth be told, if you are talking about natural disasters and disease and how they make people suffer and how they are outside the idea of free will, it's a whole other ball game on trying to explain all that.

There comes a point in time for me where I don't necessarily try to explain the world away and I'm generally ok with that. I think I may have hit that point prior to having an explanation to every natural disaster on record. I'll certainly explore it with everyone here though if we'd all like to discuss it and see if there's an answer suitable ^_^

AV1611VET · Nov 1, 2008

There's only one way for man to be immune to suffering in this universe --- have a glorified body.

This universe (and nature) is currently hostile to God's Creation, and for God to put an end to suffering, He will have to either change the universe back to the way it was before the Fall, or give us glorified bodies.

He chooses to give His children glorified bodies, but in His time.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 1, 2008

AV1611VET said:
There's only one way for man to be immune to suffering in this universe --- have a glorified body.

This universe (and nature) is currently hostile to God's Creation, and for God to put an end to suffering, He will have to either change the universe back to the way it was before the Fall, or give us glorified bodies.

He chooses to give His children glorified bodies, but in His time.

Good post AV.....may that time come soon........ :angel:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 Whenever He shall be coming to be glorified in His Saints, and to be marvelled in all the ones believing, that was believed the Testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that . [Ezekiel 39:12]

KCDAD · Nov 1, 2008

Ganymede said:
Unfortunatly not...

PS - thanks for the reps!

So only IRRATIONAL arguments are allowed? How does that make sense?

AV1611VET · Nov 1, 2008

[deleted]

KCDAD · Nov 1, 2008

AV1611VET said:
There's only one way for man to be immune to suffering in this universe --- have a glorified body.

This universe (and nature) is currently hostile to God's Creation, and for God to put an end to suffering, He will have to either change the universe back to the way it was before the Fall, or give us glorified bodies.

He chooses to give His children glorified bodies, but in His time.

1) What is a glorified body? What are its characteristics?

2) How can God's creation be hostile to God without God's consent and blessing?

3) What is different about the universe now compared to before the fall?

4) Chooses? Do you mean God considered an option not to do so?

AV1611VET · Nov 1, 2008

[deleted]

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 1, 2008

2. God cursed His [entire] Creation in Genesis 3, and it is now hostile (but obedient) to Him.

Greetings AV......YHWH also promised the OC Hebrew Israelites/Judeans He would "cleanse/purify" their Land. I believe this was fulfilled even though them and also still suffer today.

Proving it to non-Christians [including Jews and Muslims] is of course a different story....... :angel:

Matthew 23:15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV twofold-more of ye-selves

Ezekiel 39:12 And house of Israel entomb Them so that to Cleanse/Purify the Land Seven Months.
And all of people of the Land entomb them, and He becomes to them for a Name, Day of to be glorified Me, declaration of Adonai YHWH.

KCDAD · Nov 1, 2008

AV1611VET said:
KC, I'm going to give you Level 1 answers --- that is --- I'm going to answer these as best as I can, but with basic answers; then that's it. I'm not going to take it to another level, then another, then another. You and I disagree on too much for you to understand even simple doctrine. I could be wrong, but as I have said before, if you guys cannot get Genesis 1 down, you're not going to have a proper understanding of anything else, and you're living proof --- (no offense).

1. A glorified body is a body in its final stage of Sanctification. It is characterized mainly by its ability to co-exist in the spiritual realm.

2. God cursed His [entire] Creation in Genesis 3, and it is now hostile (but obedient) to Him.

3. The biggest thing is the presence of death, including heat death. Because God has withdrawn His direct hold on the universe, it is now winding down as a closed system.

4. Yes --- He determined even before the universe was created what course of action He would take.

Hostile but obedient... I like that. Before the fall there was no death... hmmm... so how and what did animals eat?
Heat death... so is entropy a symptom of the fall, too?

I really don't have any response, I just want to make sure that even if you edit this , I will preserve it as is.

Why does god allow suffering to continue?

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