Is Christianity worth serious consideration

Status
Not open for further replies.

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Just watch it next time, or I'll report you --- ;)
I sure miss my bro Chrisbot!!! ^_^

Matthew 7:6 No thou may be giving the holy to the dogs, neither ye should be casting the pearls before the swine, less they shall be trampling them in the feet of them, and being turned, shall be rending ye.

Textus Rec.) Matthew 7:6 mh dwte to agion toiV kusin mhde balhte touV margaritaV umwn emprosqen twn coirwn mhpote katapathswsin autouV en toiV posin autwn kai strafenteV rhxwsin umaV

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7256012&page=14
Skeptics, Cynics, and Pearls (Oh My!)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

OldChurchGuy

Regular Member
Feb 19, 2007
195
24
✟15,752.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
I think this is the crux of the matter and is something not many religious believers are willing to admit. It appears that the basis for their belief is an emotional response that is not based on any logic, reason or sound evidence. It seems that when religious believers speak about the heart they mean emotion instead of reason. Their experience of their God is a purely subjective feeling that is entirely generated by their own minds and that has nothing to do with reality.

Agreed that Christianity, like any religion, is based on subjective belief. For me, I have had experiences in my life which I interpret to be something beyond random chance working in my favor. But, I freely admit that this conclusion cannot be proven. If that makes me irrational and your intellectual inferior, so be it.

Of course, that means that miracles don’t really happen and prayers aren’t really answered. People just convince themselves that those things are due to their God. It also means that your God didn’t really create anything and all those stories in the Bible that rely on your God’s existence are just make-believe.

Not sure one can make the leap of logic that miracles really don't happen and prayers aren't really answered without having examined all miracles and all prayers.

But, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
But, I freely admit that this conclusion cannot be proven.
So, given that your conclusion that your God exists cannot be proven, should you believe it to be an actual fact? How convinced are you that your God exists even though it cannot be proven to be true? Are beliefs that solely depend on that conclusion worthy of serious consideration?

Not sure one can make the leap of logic that miracles really don't happen and prayers aren't really answered without having examined all miracles and all prayers.
Is it valid to leap to the conclusion that your God performs miracles and answers prayers when the existence of your God cannot be proven? At the very least, I would think that you would have to withhold your belief in these acts until the existence of the entity performing them is proven. Do you believe that your God performs miracles and answers prayers?
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So, given that your conclusion that your God exists cannot be proven, should you believe it to be an actual fact? How convinced are you that your God exists even though it cannot be proven to be true? Are beliefs that solely depend on that conclusion worthy of serious consideration?


Is it valid to leap to the conclusion that your God performs miracles and answers prayers when the existence of your God cannot be proven? At the very least, I would think that you would have to withhold your belief in these acts until the existence of the entity performing them is proven. Do you believe that your God performs miracles and answers prayers?


If everything is understandable through this dialectic approach, I think your position is sound.

What if there is no "Not A" possible in the case of God?

Maybe this is not a good example, but if heat is A, is cold Not A?

Is it true that there is no such thing as absolute zero? As long as there is matter, there must be some small measure of heat?

If cold is Not A, which in reality is an impossibility except theoretically... then what?
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
If everything is understandable through this dialectic approach, I think your position is sound.
Well, I’m not investigating everything. In this thread, I’m only interested in Christian beliefs and whether or not they are worth serious consideration. If you could answer the questions I asked OldChurchGuy, it could help with that investigation. All OldChurchGuy has done is confirm the premise of my OP, that the existence of the Christian God is an unsubstantiated claim. I’m hoping he or you can answer the second question in the OP. Please explain how it is valid to hold beliefs that depend solely on that unsubstantiated claim? Why should Christianity be treated with any deference or respect when its basis is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim?

What if there is no "Not A" possible in the case of God?
Maybe this is not a good example, but if heat is A, is cold Not A?
Is it true that there is no such thing as absolute zero? As long as there is matter, there must be some small measure of heat?
If cold is Not A, which in reality is an impossibility except theoretically... then what?
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Forget about the analogy. Just define this God of yours then tell me whether its existence has been substantiated. Is your God matter, energy, a force or something else that is capable of affecting the natural world by performing miracles and answering prayers? Please explain how your God can affect the natural world in these ways. If you can explain the process by which your God could perform miracles and answer prayers then perhaps we could determine what constitutes your God. This would help us determine whether it is possible for it to exist and allow us to search for evidence of its existence. Again though, if its existence hasn’t been confirmed (which appears to be the case at the moment) then please explain how it is valid to hold beliefs that depend solely on something that hasn’t been confirmed?
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Please explain how it is valid to hold beliefs that depend solely on that unsubstantiated claim? Why should Christianity be treated with any deference or respect when its basis is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim?


Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Forget about the analogy. Just define this God of yours then tell me whether its existence has been substantiated. Is your God matter, energy, a force or something else that is capable of affecting the natural world by performing miracles and answering prayers? Please explain how your God can affect the natural world in these ways. If you can explain the process by which your God could perform miracles and answer prayers then perhaps we could determine what constitutes your God. This would help us determine whether it is possible for it to exist and allow us to search for evidence of its existence. Again though, if its existence hasn’t been confirmed (which appears to be the case at the moment) then please explain how it is valid to hold beliefs that depend solely on something that hasn’t been confirmed?

God, or truth or law or reality or existence is the only thing that can be relied upon as true. Everything else is based on its existence. The French existentialists struggled with concept and nearly got it a hundred years ago or so.

How do we know ANYTHING is real? Because if nothing is real (and that is a possibility) then nothing makes sense, or everything makes sense. (Because then, sense doesn't exist)

So what MUST be true, what must be real is that there is something that exists outside of our ability to fully perceive, or understand.

I don't for one second believe that that something (I just wrote "that that") is a person, a being (in the common usage of that term), or a supernatural personal Deity. So, of course there is no "answer" to prayer (other than the revelatory insights we gain from it). Of course there is no "intervention" in our affairs by a conscious intentional being.

However, at the same time, there is an order, a structure to all reality that is "knowable" and the seeking of that order is the search for God. That order can change the course of lives, our society and our history. Just as our discovery of fire led to new societies, and the discovery of electricity and telecommunications changed the world, so this order as "intervened" to alter our history and course.

In this way science and religion are inextricably intertwined, with the advances of science opening new doors and windows for more questions and more discoveries in what it means to be a human being in a social world.

Without religion as a basis for formulating a world view, as a starting point to answer the burning questions we hold, science would never have taken the steps it has.

So is God real? Does God exist? Absolutely. Can we discover God? NEVER. Every step closer we take, puts that many more steps behind the discovering of the answer. The seeking of knowledge is not a finite journey.

The unsubstantiated claim is full of substance. It is however, severely lacking in perspective.

Robert Lindsey Nassif wrote:
None of us is born the same, we don't why, it's the way we came.
Every heart beats a little differently, each soul is free to find its way as a river winds its way to the sea.
For life is a journey, and there are many roads beneath the sky,
And there are many good people who don't see eye to eye.

You and I are different from our brother.
This is why we need each other as we go along.
Every man is partly right and every man is partly wrong.
Not every man can sing your tune,
From where he stands, there's another view.
With every turn we're learning more,
And perhaps will find that the walls we build are only in our minds.

There are many roads to go
And they go by many ways
They don't all go the same way
But they get there all the same.
I have a feeling that we'll meet someday
Where the roads come together up the way.
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
God, or truth or law or reality or existence is the only thing that can be relied upon as true.
When you say, “is the only thing” then you are saying that all those things are the same thing. However, that is patently not so. Law is not the same as existence. In fact, to say that it is just seems nonsensical.

How do we know ANYTHING is real? Because if nothing is real (and that is a possibility) then nothing makes sense, or everything makes sense. (Because then, sense doesn't exist)

So what MUST be true, what must be real is that there is something that exists outside of our ability to fully perceive, or understand.
Your second paragraph is a non sequitur. It doesn’t follow that because we know things are real there must be something real that we can never know about. There may be things that are real that we don’t know about, but that doesn’t mean we can never know about them, that they are beyond our ability to perceive or understand them.

I don't for one second believe that that something (I just wrote "that that") is a person, a being (in the common usage of that term), or a supernatural personal Deity. So, of course there is no "answer" to prayer (other than the revelatory insights we gain from it). Of course there is no "intervention" in our affairs by a conscious intentional being.
So prayers aren’t answered and miracles don’t occur. In which case, those things can hardly be used to substantiate the claim that the Christian God exists. Again, you are demonstrating that the claim that your God exists is unsubstantiated.

However, at the same time, there is an order, a structure to all reality that is "knowable" and the seeking of that order is the search for God.
Well, actually, knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena is called ‘science’. It has nothing to do with religion or the search for God.

In this way science and religion are inextricably intertwined, with the advances of science opening new doors and windows for more questions and more discoveries in what it means to be a human being in a social world.
Where does religion come into it?

Without religion as a basis for formulating a world view, as a starting point to answer the burning questions we hold, science would never have taken the steps it has.
On the contrary, religion has a history of suppressing scientific enquiry and discoveries. Science does very well formulating questions on its own. It has no need for religion whatsoever.

So is God real? Does God exist? Absolutely. Can we discover God? NEVER.
Could you please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that your God is real instead of the rhetoric above? Please demonstrate that this bare assertion of yours is true. I think you will find it difficult to provide evidence if, as you say, we can never discover anything about your God.

The unsubstantiated claim is full of substance.
‘Substantiated’ means established by proof or competent evidence, which is something you haven’t done here. Your rhetorical response contained no proof or competent evidence. All you’ve done is confirm that your God does not affect the natural world by answering prayers or performing miracles. You haven’t even answered my questions about what constitutes your God. Has it ever created anything? Please substantiate the claim that your God exists and affects the natural world. If you can’t then please explain how it is valid to hold beliefs that depend solely on that unsubstantiated claim.
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
When you say, “is the only thing” then you are saying that all those things are the same thing. However, that is patently not so. Law is not the same as existence. In fact, to say that it is just seems nonsensical.


Your second paragraph is a non sequitur. It doesn’t follow that because we know things are real there must be something real that we can never know about. There may be things that are real that we don’t know about, but that doesn’t mean we can never know about them, that they are beyond our ability to perceive or understand them.


So prayers aren’t answered and miracles don’t occur. In which case, those things can hardly be used to substantiate the claim that the Christian God exists. Again, you are demonstrating that the claim that your God exists is unsubstantiated.


Well, actually, knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena is called ‘science’. It has nothing to do with religion or the search for God.


Where does religion come into it?


On the contrary, religion has a history of suppressing scientific enquiry and discoveries. Science does very well formulating questions on its own. It has no need for religion whatsoever.


Could you please provide some sound, objective evidence to show that your God is real instead of the rhetoric above? Please demonstrate that this bare assertion of yours is true. I think you will find it difficult to provide evidence if, as you say, we can never discover anything about your God.


‘Substantiated’ means established by proof or competent evidence, which is something you haven’t done here. Your rhetorical response contained no proof or competent evidence. All you’ve done is confirm that your God does not affect the natural world by answering prayers or performing miracles. You haven’t even answered my questions about what constitutes your God. Has it ever created anything? Please substantiate the claim that your God exists and affects the natural world. If you can’t then please explain how it is valid to hold beliefs that depend solely on that unsubstantiated claim.



I never said I believed the Christian God, or Biblegod as some call him, exists. In fact I think I said the opposite. However , if you reread my post, you will find some insights into reality that you obviously have no considered before. Try an open mind, some skepticism and humility. They are the characteristics of the scientific attitude.

There is no evidence available other than everything that what you can perceive.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Is Christianity worth serious consideration
Only if one believes in the faith that is of the Christ of YHWH, Jesus, is worthy of consideration.

If not, then don't consider Christ-ianity....Pretty simple to me.......:angel:
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
I never said I believed the Christian God, or Biblegod as some call him, exists. In fact I think I said the opposite.
Presumably you believe in some sort of god and your profile states that you have been a Christian for 38 years. If not the Christian God then what god do you believe exists? You didn’t answer my request for you to define your god. What constitutes your god? Is it matter, energy, a force or something else as yet undefined? Did your god create anything? Does your god affect the natural world in any way? What sound, objective evidence do you have to support any claims you may make in this regard?

There is no evidence available other than everything that what you can perceive.
So again you provide no evidence to substantiate the claim that any god exists and again you fail to answer my original questions. Please explain how Christian beliefs are valid when they depend solely on the unsubstantiated claim that a God exists? Why should any heed be paid to Christian demands when their underlying justification is unsubstantiated? Why should Christianity be treated with any deference or respect when its basis is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim?
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
Only if one believes in the faith that is of the Christ of YHWH, Jesus, is worthy of consideration.

If not, then don't consider Christ-ianity....Pretty simple to me.......
There was a little more to my OP than the title. Please explain how Christian beliefs are valid when they depend solely on the unsubstantiated claim that a God exists? Why should any heed be paid to Christian demands when their underlying justification is unsubstantiated? Why should Christianity be treated with any deference or respect when its basis is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim?
 
Upvote 0

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God, or truth or law or reality or existence is the only thing that can be relied upon as true. Everything else is based on its existence. The French existentialists struggled with concept and nearly got it a hundred years ago or so.

How do we know ANYTHING is real? Because if nothing is real (and that is a possibility) then nothing makes sense, or everything makes sense. (Because then, sense doesn't exist)

So what MUST be true, what must be real is that there is something that exists outside of our ability to fully perceive, or understand.

I don't for one second believe that that something (I just wrote "that that") is a person, a being (in the common usage of that term), or a supernatural personal Deity. So, of course there is no "answer" to prayer (other than the revelatory insights we gain from it). Of course there is no "intervention" in our affairs by a conscious intentional being.

However, at the same time, there is an order, a structure to all reality that is "knowable" and the seeking of that order is the search for God. That order can change the course of lives, our society and our history. Just as our discovery of fire led to new societies, and the discovery of electricity and telecommunications changed the world, so this order as "intervened" to alter our history and course.

In this way science and religion are inextricably intertwined, with the advances of science opening new doors and windows for more questions and more discoveries in what it means to be a human being in a social world.

Without religion as a basis for formulating a world view, as a starting point to answer the burning questions we hold, science would never have taken the steps it has.

So is God real? Does God exist? Absolutely. Can we discover God? NEVER. Every step closer we take, puts that many more steps behind the discovering of the answer. The seeking of knowledge is not a finite journey.

The unsubstantiated claim is full of substance. It is however, severely lacking in perspective.

Robert Lindsey Nassif wrote:
None of us is born the same, we don't why, it's the way we came.
Every heart beats a little differently, each soul is free to find its way as a river winds its way to the sea.
For life is a journey, and there are many roads beneath the sky,
And there are many good people who don't see eye to eye.

You and I are different from our brother.
This is why we need each other as we go along.
Every man is partly right and every man is partly wrong.
Not every man can sing your tune,
From where he stands, there's another view.
With every turn we're learning more,
And perhaps will find that the walls we build are only in our minds.

There are many roads to go
And they go by many ways
They don't all go the same way
But they get there all the same.
I have a feeling that we'll meet someday
Where the roads come together up the way.

Presumably you believe in some sort of god and your profile states that you have been a Christian for 38 years. If not the Christian God then what god do you believe exists? You didn’t answer my request for you to define your god. What constitutes your god? Is it matter, energy, a force or something else as yet undefined? Did your god create anything? Does your god affect the natural world in any way? What sound, objective evidence do you have to support any claims you may make in this regard?


So again you provide no evidence to substantiate the claim that any god exists and again you fail to answer my original questions. Please explain how Christian beliefs are valid when they depend solely on the unsubstantiated claim that a God exists? Why should any heed be paid to Christian demands when their underlying justification is unsubstantiated? Why should Christianity be treated with any deference or respect when its basis is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim?

Sorry you didn't like my original response... who is closed minded?
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
Sorry you didn't like my original response... who is closed minded?
I pointed out the problems with your original response. However, the main problem with it was that it failed to answer my questions and your subsequent responses have failed to answer my questions as well. Why are you being so evasive? Why are you unable or unwilling to provide straightforward answers to plain questions? Here they are again. Please try to answer these questions.

If not the Christian God then what god do you believe exists? What constitutes your god? Is it matter, energy, a force or something else as yet undefined? Did your god create anything? Does your god affect the natural world in any way? What sound, objective evidence do you have to support any claims you may make in this regard?

Please explain how Christian beliefs are valid when they depend solely on the unsubstantiated claim that a God exists? Why should any heed be paid to Christian demands when their underlying justification is unsubstantiated? Why should Christianity be treated with any deference or respect when its basis is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There was a little more to my OP than the title. Please explain how Christian beliefs are valid when they depend solely on the unsubstantiated claim that a God exists? Why should any heed be paid to Christian demands when their underlying justification is unsubstantiated? Why should Christianity be treated with any deference or respect when its basis is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim?

Tell me how any belief can be valid. All beliefs are subjective, and subject to the individual's consent.

"God, or truth or law or reality or existence is the only thing that can be relied upon as true."

The truth of gravity, the law of gravity, the reality of gravity... is there a difference?

The truth is that we can see the effects of gravity, we can predict it and expect certain things from it.
The law is that any two objects with mass will be effected by a force that attracts the two bodies to each other.
The reality is if you jump off a height. you will be drawn towards the Earth and an inverse proportion to the Earth being attracted to you.

So, you see, law, truth and reality ARE the same thing... or at least different perspectives of the same thing.

Does God exist? Do you have proof?
Does gravity exist? Gravity is a small part of what God is... the unifying laws and realities of the universe.

God is that which caused or generated the big bang... whatever it was. Whatever principle of physics that caused that critical mass moment. It is the same unifying principle that causes dna to wrap around itself and create life.

I am really sorry you don't like this answer. So what?
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
Tell me how any belief can be valid. All beliefs are subjective, and subject to the individual's consent.
By ‘valid’, I mean well grounded and justifiable.

Does God exist? Do you have proof?
Does gravity exist? Gravity is a small part of what God is... the unifying laws and realities of the universe.
The belief that gravity exists is well grounded and justifiable. We have plenty of sound, objective evidence to show that gravity exists. We can test the properties of gravity time after time and obtain consistent results—so consistent, in fact, that we can formulate a law describing its properties.

The belief that your God exists is not well grounded and justifiable. There is absolutely no sound, objective evidence to show that your God exists. We cannot test the properties of your God and obtain consistent results. In fact, you are unable or unwilling even to define what constitutes your God. Calling gravity a small part of your God is just a bare assertion worth no more than the evidence supporting it.

God is that which caused or generated the big bang... whatever it was. Whatever principle of physics that caused that critical mass moment. It is the same unifying principle that causes dna to wrap around itself and create life.
These are just more bare assertions worth no more than the evidence supporting them, which is precisely zero.

I am really sorry you don't like this answer. So what?
Your responses are worthless to me because they fail to provide reasonable answers to my questions. You constantly evade the actual questions I’m asking. Why is that? If you aren’t willing to answer my questions then why bother responding?

So far, no one has provided reasonable answers to my questions, which leads me to believe there are no reasonable answers. I suspect that Christian beliefs aren’t well grounded or justifiable, that no heed should be paid to Christian demands and that Christianity should not be treated with any deference or respect. Can no one provide reasonable answers to the questions in my OP?
 
Upvote 0

OldChurchGuy

Regular Member
Feb 19, 2007
195
24
✟15,752.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
So, given that your conclusion that your God exists cannot be proven, should you believe it to be an actual fact? At the risk of being acused of dancing around semantics, I have faith that God exists. That faith is based on various personal experiences in my life with I conclude are not due to random chance working in my favor.

How convinced are you that your God exists even though it cannot be proven to be true? I am more convinced in the existense of God than I am in the non-existense of God.

Are beliefs that solely depend on that conclusion worthy of serious consideration? Depends on the individual. For me, yes. For others, no.

Is it valid to leap to the conclusion that your God performs miracles and answers prayers when the existence of your God cannot be proven? Since I have experienced events which I interpret to be an answer to prayer I do not perceive that I have leaped to any conclusions. Was my prior statement "Not sure one can make the leap of logic that miracles really don't happen and prayers aren't really answered without having examined all miracles and all prayers." incorrect? If so, why?

At the very least, I would think that you would have to withhold your belief in these acts until the existence of the entity performing them is proven. Do you believe that your God performs miracles and answers prayers? As stated previously, yes I believe God performs miracles and answers prayers.

Understand, religion by it's very nature is a matter of belief / faith; not irrefutable fact. Granted, there are those who treat their religion as irrefutable fact.

For me, until the entire known universe can be fully explained there is room for science and for a belief in God.

Enjoying the exchange very much I remain,

OldChurchGuy
 
Upvote 0

3sigma

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2008
2,339
72
✟3,007.00
Faith
Atheist
At the risk of being acused of dancing around semantics, I have faith that God exists. That faith is based on various personal experiences in my life with I conclude are not due to random chance working in my favor.
Did you test your hypothesis that your God was causing things to happen rather than their occurring by chance? How did you test it? Please provide the strongest example you have that your God caused something and show me how you reached the conclusion that it wasn’t the result of random chance or natural processes. I suspect that your conclusions will be due to post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning and confirmation bias rather than being based on sound, objective evidence and objective tests. In fact by stating that your conclusions are based on personal experiences, you are signalling that your conclusions are not based on objective evidence at all.

Suppose I told you that I have faith that Santa Claus exists and that faith is based on various personal experiences in my life that I conclude are not due to random chance working in my favour. Would you think that I had reached a reasonable conclusion? Would you find my faith, on its own, to be a compelling argument for the existence of Santa Claus? Would you perhaps ask me for some evidence to support my claim?

Since I have experienced events which I interpret to be an answer to prayer I do not perceive that I have leaped to any conclusions.
Again, suppose I told you that I have experienced events that I interpret to indicate that Santa Claus exists. Would you think that I had reached a reasonable conclusion?

Was my prior statement "Not sure one can make the leap of logic that miracles really don't happen and prayers aren't really answered without having examined all miracles and all prayers." incorrect? If so, why?
Has there ever been an occasion where the claim that your God performed a miracle was shown to be true? Has there ever been an occasion where the claim that your God answered a prayer was shown to be true? I don’t think it is leaping to a conclusion that your God doesn’t perform miracles or answer prayers when those claims have never been shown to be true. I think it is reasonable to hold the position that your God doesn’t perform miracles or answer prayers until those claims are shown to be true.

As stated previously, yes I believe God performs miracles and answers prayers.
Why would you believe that when those claims have never been shown to be true?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KCDAD

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2005
12,536
372
68
Illinois
✟14,800.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
By ‘valid’, I mean well grounded and justifiable.

Your responses are worthless to me because they fail to provide reasonable answers to my questions. You constantly evade the actual questions I’m asking. Why is that? If you aren’t willing to answer my questions then why bother responding?

So far, no one has provided reasonable answers to my questions, which leads me to believe there are no reasonable answers. I suspect that Christian beliefs aren’t well grounded or justifiable, that no heed should be paid to Christian demands and that Christianity should not be treated with any deference or respect. Can no one provide reasonable answers to the questions in my OP?

I am so glad you have the concession on reason. Could I have some please? Just a small cup, to go.

If you are unwilling to consider the answer, why bother asking the question?

You demonstrate gravity, and I will demonstrate God.
I'll even go first:

When you live in a society that refuses to admit that you equal to other people because of your skin color, do not fight back, but peaceably assemble and voice your protests, sit in at restaurants and refuse to give up your seat to a white person... go to jail, be beaten, even executed, but speak your peace... and someday, despite a voting block of white racists in the deep south, a person of color can become the President of the United States.

The master will free his slaves. The lion will lie down with the lamb. What do you call that? A miracle? I call it God. Justice.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.