Works based Salvation

FundamentalistJohn said:

I don't post here very often although I am thoroughly reformed. I just wanted to ask, don't you guys love how DD will chew on a piece of meat? He is ravenous for Truth and have admired that about him.

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I tell ya brother, I'm about to get discouraged on this issue.

You should pop over to the Baptist room and read this thread over there.

I had planed to go on a televised debate with another brother and two CoC ministers. But this one point here is kinda getting me down.

As a Christian, we should know that faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God, born of a virgin, died on a cross with my sins upon him, buried in a grave, and rose again after 3 days for my justification should be enough to save you. But no, it takes "works of righteousness" also.

I have actually had a person tell me:

a man is justified by works and not by faith alone, and that faith without works is NOT efficacious for salvation.

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To tell you the truth, and just to 100% sure, I did not know fully what the word "efficaious" meant, so I looked it up in the dictionary. Here is what it said:

Efficacious - Capable of producing a desired effect.

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American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Editiion, Houghton Miffin Company, Boston, Mass., Copyright 1982, p. 440

As I read the above statement, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the above statement, does it not say:

Is that our faith in Jesus Christ is not capable of producing the desired effect of salvation. That salvation is only capable of having the desired effect God wants when we as Christians have faith plus works. That our faith in Jesus does not justify us in the sight of God.

In other words, Jesus' death on the cross for our sins was not enough, it takes works to insure that we are saved.

I was unsure about this whole idea so I went and asked in the "Ask a Chaplain" area this same question.

Guess what? I received a reply from a Catholic chaplain that said the same thing also. According to James 2, we must have works in order to be saved. Well, not willing to accept the typical Catholic answer, I questioned the reply. And got my hand slapped for that telling me that I was not to be debating the answers given by the Chaplains.

I'm really taking a beating over this. Being told just how wrong I am, even in the Baptist room!

I had posted several articles from various sources over the James and Paul "conflict."

What I have come to believe is that Paul and James were not in conflict and they do not contridict each other, rather, they compliment each other.

You see, Paul fought "legalism" his whole ministry. There were "legalizers" who followed after Paul and wherever he taught, they came behind and sowed seeds of "legalism" in amongst the wheat. This is most noticable in the book of Galatians. Basically, what these "legalizers" were saying was well faith in God was fine, but, where are your adherance to the "law" like the issue of circumcision. Paul fought those who made the boast of having the works of the law on their side, much like the Pharisees did. They would be in heaven by right of their being the seed of Abraham. They had "works" but no faith. And Paul taught that we were justified by faith apart from works of the law.

James argued almost the same point, but approached the problem from another angle. James fought those who made the boast of having faith as promised, but no works to show evidence of it.

I was told just how wrong I was in this. "Hogwash" was the word I was told.

In 2:20-26 James is saying absolutely nothing about a genuine faith in Christ producing good works! He is saying that “faith without works is useless.” It is useless both for one’s justification and one’s salvation!

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More hogwash! Paul does NOT say the same thing in his writings. Paul says in his writings that “a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”...“Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9)….”

http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

This statement is radically false.

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Let ask you a question.

What "work of righteousness" can I do that will equal to or exceed that which Christ has already done for me on my behalf?

Is is feeding the hungry?

Is it clothing the naked?

Is it ministering to the widows and orphans?

Shall I give a million dollars to charity?

What?

And if you say any of the above, please be aware that any "work" along these lines should be remembered as being covered under that commandment Jesus quoted: "Love thy brother as thyself". ANd also be aware that as Deacon, these are part of the description of my duties to the church and fellow man according to Acts 6.

And in reality, when all is said and done with, I still have to come back to Luke 17.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. " -Lk. 17:10 (KJV)

So what have I done that is above and beyond what I am already supposed to do?

Works play no part in salvation. Neither before or after. Works are simply evidence of my faith, not what makes me acceptable to God and not what saves me.

But yet, I'm taking a beating over this.

So there you have it.

a man is justified by works and not by faith alone, and that faith without works is NOT efficacious for salvation.[/

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QUOTE]

Faith in Jesus Christ will not save you completely. It takes "works" plus faith to save.

And I'm the one who is wrong here?

God Bless

Till all are one.

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mlqurgw said:

Take courage brother. You are not wrong and you know it. Be aware that the forces of Hell will always seem to be the majority. Those who hold the truth of God have never in history been the majority. That is one of the many things that convinces me that I am correct, so many oppose it. Swimming against the stream is never easy but easy is always wrong. If it comes down to only you and I standing for the truth of God, which I am sure will not happen, it is fine. You and I will stand for truth. I know that I stand with my back to yours and yours to mine in the face of all opposition. Surrender is not an option. We will stand together and die together as brothers. Be encouraged that God in sovereign mercy has sent others here recently to stand with us.

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Brother, in my desperation, I talked to my old seminary teacher, and he suggested me reading from my devotionals.

Here is the one for tonight 9/10/08, and boy, does God ever know when, where, and how to send a message.

"Evening wolves."—Habakkuk 1:8.
​

HILE preparing the present volume, this particular expression recurred to me so frequently, that in order to be rid of its constant importunity I determined to give a page to it. The evening wolf, infuriated by a day of hunger, was fiercer and more ravenous than he would have been in the morning. May not the furious creature represent our doubts and fears after a day of distraction of mind, losses in business, and perhaps ungenerous tauntings from our fellow men? How our thoughts howl in our ears, "Where is now thy God?" How voracious and greedy they are, swallowing up all suggestions of comfort, and remaining as hungry as before. Great Shepherd, slay these evening wolves, and bid Thy sheep lie down in green pastures, undisturbed by insatiable unbelief. How like are the fiends of hell to evening wolves, for when the flock of Christ are in a cloudy and dark day, and their sun seems going down, they hasten to tear and to devour. They will scarcely attack the Christian in the daylight of faith, but in the gloom of soul conflict they fall upon him. O Thou who hast laid down Thy life for the sheep, preserve them from the fangs of the wolf.

False teachers who craftily and industriously hunt for the precious life, devouring men by their false-hoods, are as dangerous and detestable as evening wolves. Darkness is their element, deceit is their character, destruction is their end. We are most in danger from them when they wear the sheep's skin. Blessed is he who is kept from them, for thousands are made the prey of grievous wolves that enter within the fold of the church.

What a wonder of grace it is when fierce persecutors are converted, for then the wolf dwells with the lamb, and men of cruel ungovernable dispositions become gentle and teachable. O Lord, convert many such: for such we will pray to-night.

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http://www.spurgeon.org/morn_eve/this_evening.cgi

Boy did I ever need to hear this one.

The National Anthem of Hell: "I did it my way"

God Bless

Till all are one.

Since this thread is dying a slow death, I just want to inject new life into it.

What if I were to say:

but in order to be saved, we must allow both the grace and the faith to work in our lives, and that includes performing the works that Jesus and His brother James taught we must perform to be justified and saved.

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Even though my own Confession of Faith says:

We believe the Scriptures teach that the great Gospel blessing which Christ secures to such as believe in him is justification; that justification includes the pardon of sin, and the promise of eternal life on principles of righteousness; that it is bestowed, not in consideration of any works of righteousness which we have done, but solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood;

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Would I not be guilty of teaching contray to scriptures and my own Confession of Faith?

Would I not be guilty of teaching that our justification is not of God but of the "works" that I do?

Charles Haddon Spurgeon wrote:

And, next, I think it will be admitted by all, that the way of salvation by good works would be self-evidently unsuitable to a considerable number. I will take a case. I am sent for on an emergency, and it is the dead of night. A man is dying, smitten suddenly by the death-blast. I go to his bedside, as requested. Consciousness remains; but he is evidently in mortal agony. He has lived an ungodly life, and he is about to die. I am asked by his wife and friends to speak to him a word that may bless him. Shall I tell him that he can only be saved by good works? Where is the time for works? Where is the possibility of them? Almost while I am speaking, his life is struggling to escape him. He looks at me in the agony of his soul, and he stammers out, "What must I do to be saved?" Shall I read to him the moral law? Shall I expound to him the Ten Commandments, and tell him that he must keep all these? He would shake his head, and say, "I have broken them all; I am condemned by them all." If salvation be of works, what more have I to say? I am of no use here. What can I say? The man is utterly lost. There is no remedy for him. How can I tell him the cruel dogma of "modern thought" that his own personal character is everything? How can I tell him that there is no value in belief, no help for the soul in looking to another—even to Jesus, the Substitute? There is no whisper of hope for a dying man in the hard and stony doctrine of salvation by works.

If salvation had been by works, our Lord could not have said to the thief, dying at his side, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." That man could do no works. His hands and feet were fastened to the cross, and he was in the agonies of death. No, it must be of grace, all-conquering grace; and the modus operandi must be by faith, or else for dying men the gospel is a mockery. The man must look, and live. The expiring sinner must trust the expiring Savior. As life ebbs out, the penitent must find life in Jesus' death. Is it not clear that the gospel of works is unsuitable in such a case as that? Now, a gospel which is unsuitable to anybody is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, I put it plainly. A gospel that does not suit everybody does not suit anybody; and if it suits any class and condition really and truly, it must suit all classes. I think I have told you that, on one occasion, I had a letter which was intended to be very irritating to me, from some rather eminent, aristocratic gentleman, who said that he had read some of my sermons when he was out on the coast of Africa, and he found that certain black fellows out there—certain "edited for content"—delighted in them very much. He wrote to inform me that I was a very competent preacher for "edited for content" I accepted the assurance at once as a very high compliment. I felt that, if I could preach to "edited for content" I could preach to anybody; and that, if the gospel that I preached was suitable to the natives on the coast of Africa it would certainly suit the people in London; if those who are afar off could understand it, you, who are near, could also understand it. The gospel was not sent into the world to be a patent medicine that could only be purchased by the wealthy, or a spell that could only be uttered by Latin scholars. It is a gospel for all ranks and conditions of men; and if I prove that what you call the gospel is unsuitable for the dying, or is unsuitable for the ignorant, it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel of salvation by grace, through faith, is suitable for every class of persons that we have to deal with. Sinful habit has bound in iron fetters many of our fellow-citizens, and the gospel can free them. Be the habit drunkenness, or profanity, or what it may, the habit holds them fast; and the prophet says, concerning habit, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." To what purpose, then, do I cry to the leopard, "Change your spots," or to the Ethiopian, "Change your skin"? I must bring a superior force to bear upon the leopard or the Ethiopian, before this can be accomplished; and there is no force in mere exhortation. You may exhort a blind man to see as long as you like; but he will not see. You may exhort a dead man to live as long as you like; but he will not live through your exhortation alone. Something more is wanted. The forces of natural depravity, and the acquired habits of sin in many cases—I think you will grant it—put the doctrine of salvation by works out of court; and if out of court as to one, it is gone as to all; for there can be but one gospel. Go through your convict settlements; go through your jails; and just see what you can do with a doctrine of salvation by good works. You will come home disappointed, however earnest may be your address. But go there, and tell of free grace and dying love, and pardon bought with blood, and eyes that stream with tears, confessions of sin, and cries for pardon, will tell you that you have not spoken in vain.

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Link

My faith will show forth in works. The minute I was regenerated and believed that Jesus Christ is the Sonof the Living God, who died in my place, I was saved and justified.

I am not justifed and saved based on my works.

Now who is right?

Me?

Or this other poster?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Since this is almost dead, I just want to ask one last question.

According to Isa. 53:11:

יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֹנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל.


"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. "

And according to Romans 3:26:

"en th anoch tou qeou, proV thn endeixin thV dikaiosunhV autou en tw nun kairw, eiV to einai auton dikaion kai dikaiounta ton ek pistewV ihsou."

"To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

If God is the justifier of all men through Jesus Christ, how can "works" be the justifier? (cf Jas. 2:24)

God Bless

Till all are one.

cygnusx1 said:

the word "justified" is taken in TWO different ways in scripture ;

1. To justify = to declare innocent , a legal term.

2. To 'Justify' = to make visible , a logical term.



When Paul speaks of Justification , he is using the term legally , we are aquitted by God's Grace through faith.


When James uses the term justified , he is using it the same way Jesus uses it "Wisdom is JUSTIFIED by her children"



Matt 11:19

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

..... which means simply made known. Wisdom is made known by her children , not that it saves.

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From the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Heinrick Schlier says:

dikaiow derives from dikaioV, -on, and means "to make righteous" or neuter "to establish as right" "to validate" (opp. akuroun, "to invalidate," etc.)

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And according to all research, the usage in the KJV follows after the usage in the LXX. When used in the Active, it has the same meaning as אַצְדִּיק (hiphil), "to declare someone righteous" "to acquit someone" "to secure justice for him."

" וְהִצְדִּיקוּ, אֶת-הַצַּדִּיק" -Deut. 25:1

"Justifying the righteous"

But, if you use James' statement in Jas. 2:24, (as some churches teach) then it is the persons works that "declares righteous" "acquits them" "secures justice for them" "justifies" them in the sight of God.

If you follow their logic, then I suggest the following senerio is applicable:

I go out and murder somebody, the police catch me, I tell the judge that as evidence of my regret, remorse, I will go out and "work" to justify "to be acquitted" of my crime.

According to the Catholic faith (Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 24), and according to the Restoration Church teachings, which I might add, are 99.9% identical in this instance, according to their teaching, "works" from James' teaching, increases a persons righteousness, and merits them justification in the sight of God.

They do not teach that James uses justification in this sense:

When James uses the term justified , he is using it the same way Jesus uses it "Wisdom is JUSTIFIED by her children"

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They actually teach that according to James, one can be acquitted, delared righteous, validated, established as right, by doing "works."

I might also add:

"To justify oneself" "to represent oneself as righteous." A weaker sense, which yet betrays its legal origin, is said to be found in Lk. 10:29. The qelwn dikaiwsai eauton wishes to vindicate himself in the debate. On the other hand, Lk. 16:15: umeiV este oi dikaiounteV eautouV enwpion twn anqrwpwn, "to declare or represent oneself as righteous" is much closer to the main NT usage. The attitude of the dikaikoV anticipates what God alone can establish by His pronouncement. {emphasis here, mine}

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So, according to Isa. 53:11; Rom. 3:22,26, God is the one who justifies men through Jesus Christ, and it is not through works as James supposedly teaches.

Don't we of the Reformed faith teach that we have Christ's righteousness imputed unto us? (cf. Rom. 4:24) And if we have Christ's righteousness imputed unto us, then we are justified also.

Righteousness and justification go hand and hand. You can't have one without the other. You can't be justified unless you've been declared righteous. Likewise, you cannot be righteous without being justified.

When I knelt at the foot of the cross and accepted Christ as my Savior, my sins were forgiven. I was (dikaiow) "acquitted" and declared righteous.

My point is, if it is God who does the justifying, then it cannot be works as James suggests.

So...can we be "acquitted" in God's sight by doing "works" as it is suggested that James teaches?

Or, is it that what James is teaching is that true genuine saving faith, faith that has Christ as its object, will be manifest in works?

Or does James actually teach that a person cannot be "acquitted" by faith alone, it takes faith plus to merit the "acquittal"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

I think you guys have missed the point I was trying to make.

I'm in full agreement with you guys.

But, there are religions, denominations, that teach one must "work" at being justified in the sight of God. (cf. Jas. 2:24)

And that is what I'm campaning against.

God Bless

Till all are one.