Hypocrisy in my church

eves_adam · Aug 17, 2008

I have been attending a church that has been highly recommended to me. I consider myself saved and a very spiritual person. I like my pastor, and he is as much a friend as he is a pastor and leader. HOWEVER, some of his positions are bothersome to me.

He has recently been going on an anti-gay rant every chance he gets. He claims that california is about to be taken over by gays, and that one day they will come to his house to have him arrested. His claim is that legislation in the state will put him in jail for expressing pro-heterosexual views.

Second, he openly encourages his largely military or pro military congregation to do a good job in the military. This disturbs me as we are fighting a war in Iraq that is unjust and is responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

There really is no way to talk to anyone within the church about my concerns, as I am sure they would side 100% with the pastor, as well they should, so I cannot address these issues at all within the church.

Interestingly, he is very much opposed to pre marital sex. But, he has no problems with soldiers shooting and killing innocent people.

cheese007 · Aug 17, 2008

I would suggest finding a new church.

eves_adam · Aug 17, 2008

I would, but I've "visited" at least 10 churches in my local area. This is a military town, and ALL of the ministers support our killing machine in earnest, know what I mean?

cheese007 · Aug 17, 2008

Find an out of town church. How close are you to other cities?

eves_adam · Aug 17, 2008

The closest metropolis would be over an hour away, on the freeway. Maybe 70 miles each way? Probably $25 per trip for gas!

cheese007 · Aug 17, 2008

Start your own church? I'm running out of ideas.

Verv · Aug 17, 2008

First, they have actually put a few large name Christian speakers in Canada and the UK in positions of trouble because they simply continue to condemn homosexuality. check it out.

That is not correct right now but it could be at some point in the future.

Secondly... It is good to encourage the military. I do not see the problem. For sure, disagree with the war if you want -- it's your opinion afterall -- but offering support to soldiers and encouraging words I think is generally quite an honorable stance.

Mskedi · Aug 17, 2008

eves_adam said:
I have been attending a church that has been highly recommended to me. I consider myself saved and a very spiritual person. I like my pastor, and he is as much a friend as he is a pastor and leader. HOWEVER, some of his positions are bothersome to me.

He has recently been going on an anti-gay rant every chance he gets. He claims that california is about to be taken over by gays, and that one day they will come to his house to have him arrested. His claim is that legislation in the state will put him in jail for expressing pro-heterosexual views.

Second, he openly encourages his largely military or pro military congregation to do a good job in the military. This disturbs me as we are fighting a war in Iraq that is unjust and is responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

There really is no way to talk to anyone within the church about my concerns, as I am sure they would side 100% with the pastor, as well they should, so I cannot address these issues at all within the church.

Interestingly, he is very much opposed to pre marital sex. But, he has no problems with soldiers shooting and killing innocent people.

I bolded the part that interested me. Basically, you're saying that even though you haven't talked to members of the congregation about this, you think they agree with the pastor. Yet they could be thinking the same of you since you are attending the church and not speaking up.

I would talk to some people. Not necessarily aggressively, but enough to get a feel... you know, something like, "Does he frequently preach on topic X?"

Personally, though, I have never found a church that meets 100% of my criteria. I would weight the positives and negatives. If the negatives are too many or of a type that I simply cannot put up with, then I'd be forced to continue church-hopping. If, however, I could put up with some things I didn't like because the fellowship, community outreach, biblical teachings, etc, were things I was learning from, then I would stay and just put up with the parts I didn't like.

It's ultimately up to you.

Bombila · Aug 17, 2008

jmverville said:
First, they have actually put a few large name Christian speakers in Canada and the UK in positions of trouble because they simply continue to condemn homosexuality. check it out.

That is not correct right now but it could be at some point in the future.

Secondly... It is good to encourage the military. I do not see the problem. For sure, disagree with the war if you want -- it's your opinion afterall -- but offering support to soldiers and encouraging words I think is generally quite an honorable stance.

Somewhat off-topic for the OP, but you brought it up. Most of the religious organizations in Canada, including those who still view homosexuality as a 'sin', along with the rest of us, do not want hysterical, bigoted, money-grubbing American preachers and pundits attempting to demonize our fellow citizens, regardless of who those citizens sleep with. Therefore we approve the court's decision wrt so-called hate speech in most cases. There are exceptions, and those are usually appealed.

Any Canadian is free to say s/he disapproves of/does not like/ homosexuality/homosexuals, or to assert that it is a sin under a particular set of religious beliefs. They are not, however, free to spout lies, defamation, and libel on the public airwaves, nor are they free to urge others to hurt or injure or interfere with the human rights of Canadian citizens.

To the OP: you might get more constructive advice in one of the other forums on this site. Go to the front page and check all the Christian groups near the top; there are many.

Beanieboy · Aug 17, 2008

eves_adam said:
I have been attending a church that has been highly recommended to me. I consider myself saved and a very spiritual person. I like my pastor, and he is as much a friend as he is a pastor and leader. HOWEVER, some of his positions are bothersome to me.

He has recently been going on an anti-gay rant every chance he gets. He claims that california is about to be taken over by gays, and that one day they will come to his house to have him arrested. His claim is that legislation in the state will put him in jail for expressing pro-heterosexual views.

Second, he openly encourages his largely military or pro military congregation to do a good job in the military. This disturbs me as we are fighting a war in Iraq that is unjust and is responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

There really is no way to talk to anyone within the church about my concerns, as I am sure they would side 100% with the pastor, as well they should, so I cannot address these issues at all within the church.

Interestingly, he is very much opposed to pre marital sex. But, he has no problems with soldiers shooting and killing innocent people.

Well, to quote a corny Christian phrase, What Would Jesus do?

Did Jesus spend a lot of time preaching that the Samaritans (thought even lower than the sinners) were going to take over Jerusalem?
Did Jesus talk about how the sinners are going to be the downfall of Nazareth?
Did he claim that he was going to be arrested for speaking out against sin?

He was arrested, eventually, but his enemies were NEVER the sinners, but those in within the temple - the Pharisees, and Sadduccees.
He called a group "children of the devil", "snakes and vipers brood", but it wasn't the sinners. It was the Pharisees - those in the temple that were thought of as "holy".

Did Jesus focus on how people should go forth and invade nations, kill people in other countries?
Or did he command people to love their neighbor as themselves?
Did he lie to get people to go into war?
Did he say that fighting for oil/monetary gain/etc was justified?

You say that there is hypocracy in your church.
I ask, is this Church serving God, or serving someone else?
Do you feel God's Spirit there? Do you see the fruits of the Spirit in your church? Do you see love and described in 1 Corinthians 13? Or do you see wolves in sheep's clothing? Do you see false prophets?

I suggest you pray about it, and be asked to led to a church where God wants you.

Beanieboy · Aug 17, 2008

Bombila said:
Somewhat off-topic for the OP, but you brought it up. Most of the religious organizations in Canada, including those who still view homosexuality as a 'sin', along with the rest of us, do not want hysterical, bigoted, money-grubbing American preachers and pundits attempting to demonize our fellow citizens, regardless of who those citizens sleep with. Therefore we approve the court's decision wrt so-called hate speech in most cases. There are exceptions, and those are usually appealed.

Any Canadian is free to say s/he disapproves of/does not like/ homosexuality/homosexuals, or to assert that it is a sin under a particular set of religious beliefs. They are not, however, free to spout lies, defamation, and libel on the public airwaves, nor are they free to urge others to hurt or injure or interfere with the human rights of Canadian citizens.

To the OP: you might get more constructive advice in one of the other forums on this site. Go to the front page and check all the Christian groups near the top; there are many.

The same is true in the US. It's called Slander.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts which arises where one person reveals information which is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person.[1] "Unlike libel or slander, truth is not a defence for invasion of privacy."[2]

Claiming that it homosexuals are recruiting your children, destroying American, etc., is an example.

mpok1519 · Aug 17, 2008

do what I do; remember that church isnt more important than your own spiritual health; if every church is destroying one's spiritual health, church isn't a good place to grow in one's spirituality if the church is going against what one believes is right.

mpok1519 · Aug 17, 2008

the pastor says he 'pro-heterosexuality' when he really is anti-homosexuality.

There is a difference between the two. One preaches the benefits of heterosexuality while the other preaches the pitfalls of homosexuality; theres always a right and wrong way to go about things

Beanieboy · Aug 17, 2008

mpok1519 said:
the pastor says he 'pro-heterosexuality' when he really is anti-homosexuality.

There is a difference between the two. One preaches the benefits of heterosexuality while the other preaches the pitfalls of homosexuality; theres always a right and wrong way to go about things

On another thread, I talked about seeing A Cure For Love, a documentary about exgay ministries. The exgay ministry that they were going to did not accept the existence of homosexuality (a gay orientation), but rather, SameSex Attraction Disorder, a mental illness to be healed from.

Is that anti-gay? Not really. It's more of outdated thinking, like getting lots of summer sun is good for you, or you should eat lots of red meat. You have to ignore science and research, and make up your own "disorder" to fit that.
In short, you have to deny evidence, lie to yourself, and lie to others.

Homosexuality is very real. It can be seen in the animal kingdom, it has strong evidence as being somewhat a genetic trait, etc.

Being dishonest about it doesn't seem the right approach. Even the gay man who decides to marry his lesbian friend to obey what he believes is God's Plan for us, acknowledges that exgay ministries need to be far more honest, that people don't magically change, and will always be struggling.

If a gay man (now married, who is trying to live a hetero life), can admit that, why not the ministries?

I suspect that that would require acknowledging the existence of homosexuality, undermining their authority on the subject

mpok1519 · Aug 17, 2008

if someone thinks being gay is a kind of disease, theyre the ones hwo have the disease; fear.

Fear is the worst disease of all.

Verv · Aug 17, 2008

Bombila said:
Somewhat off-topic for the OP, but you brought it up. Most of the religious organizations in Canada, including those who still view homosexuality as a 'sin', along with the rest of us, do not want hysterical, bigoted, money-grubbing American preachers and pundits attempting to demonize our fellow citizens, regardless of who those citizens sleep with. Therefore we approve the court's decision wrt so-called hate speech in most cases. There are exceptions, and those are usually appealed.

Any Canadian is free to say s/he disapproves of/does not like/ homosexuality/homosexuals, or to assert that it is a sin under a particular set of religious beliefs. They are not, however, free to spout lies, defamation, and libel on the public airwaves, nor are they free to urge others to hurt or injure or interfere with the human rights of Canadian citizens.

To the OP: you might get more constructive advice in one of the other forums on this site. Go to the front page and check all the Christian groups near the top; there are many.

Frankly, I do not think the government should be able to determine what is and what is not "hate speech." It should always be illegal to encourage violence against others as that is a very real form of harassment but no matter how offensive any other language is it should not be banned or illegalized.

That is fascism in its own right -- to take away the right of one group to speak freely.

Beanieboy · Aug 17, 2008

jmverville said:
Frankly, I do not think the government should be able to determine what is and what is not "hate speech." It should always be illegal to encourage violence against others as that is a very real form of harassment but no matter how offensive any other language is it should not be banned or illegalized.

That is fascism in its own right -- to take away the right of one group to speak freely.

So, you oppose defamation and slander laws?

eves_adam · Aug 17, 2008

It's a mixed bag, this church I've been going to semi-frequently. Overall, do I feel a strong sense of "the spirit" at this church, you ask? No. Not really. The parishioners are polite, but distant. They're not even really good with eye contact, and I don't get the sense they want to speak with me, or anyone else, for that matter. So, I do not have a strong desire to speak with them. There's a required "meet and greet." This is always awkward for me, because people here do not maintain eye contact, but look off to the side when greeting you. They never ask your name. It's weird.

Overall, this town has a long history as a military town. A lot of the people passing through are knucklehead GI's. They've left behind a long legacy of broken marriages, drugs, alcohol, prostitution and just a general disregard for decency. The better ones are in church, but I seriously doubt they are interested in debating issues of gay tolerance.

The pastor is very old fashioned: pro corporal punishment, anti-gay, and basically said in a sermon that he sometimes gets confused when he speaks to non-believers and cannot adequately address their arguments. He says he gets overwhelmed, but "believes the bible anyway." He is implying that non believers are evil and verbally aggressive, whereas he is a meek, faithful Christian. But it could also be taken to mean that when he engages in discussions with people with contrarian views, he is unable to justify his own position with any substance.

Nonetheless, he is a third generation pastor, has a large flock, and is generally well liked. His extreme stances are probably viewed as moderate by many within the congregation. There are several older members who believe that there is a conspiracy by non-believers to attack the church and destroy America. A more realistic perspective is that these so called non-believers are simply doing what they want, are ignoring the church, and these church members feel powerless to control them.

The pastor has joked that certain non-believer knuckleheads (his term) should be shot. "I'm kidding." "No, I'm not." So there you have it. Gays are trying to take over the state, turn the state and all the schoolchildren gay, and they will show up at his door, and have him arrested. His only possible defense? The bible. And a shotgun. Oddly, this is probably the second most popular church in my area.

All the negativity and paranoia and desire for bloody retribution is disturbing. As is seeing the hundreds turn out every Sunday listening as if it were "gospel."

PS: I'm not sure where debating would take place. There are discussions, yes, but they are attended by the most loyal (i.e., older, most conservative, most militaristic) members and I am absolutely certain they would view any questioning with severe disapproval.

eves_adam · Aug 17, 2008

Oh, there is another issue which concerns me. The pastor regularly, as in every sermon so far, has revealed details about his parishioner's lives in front of HUNDREDS of people. He will talk about particulars of a person's life, who if you know perhaps a few other details, might make it very easy to identify that person. This is an absolute no-no.

The odd thing is, no one seems to mind, and hundreds upon hundreds return every week. I guess this sort of public "shaming" is ok 'round these parts.

The pastor has asked me to join him for lunch on multiple occasions, but for this and other reasons, I avoided doing so. I did finally relent, and had a (relatively) pleasant conversation. He's asked me to become more involved, but I am reluctant to do so, not on his watch.

Verv · Aug 17, 2008

eves_adam said:
Oh, there is another issue which concerns me. The pastor regularly, as in every sermon so far, has revealed details about his parishioner's lives in front of HUNDREDS of people. He will talk about particulars of a person's life, who if you know perhaps a few other details, might make it very easy to identify that person. This is an absolute no-no.

The odd thing is, no one seems to mind, and hundreds upon hundreds return every week. I guess this sort of public "shaming" is ok 'round these parts.

The pastor has asked me to join him for lunch on multiple occasions, but for this and other reasons, I avoided doing so. I did finally relent, and had a (relatively) pleasant conversation. He's asked me to become more involved, but I am reluctant to do so, not on his watch.

That is definitely a major problem.

The Preacher-Parishoner relationship is even protected LEGALLY and anything said between cannot be admit in a court of Law -- revealing this in front of others is a huge no-no.

Hypocrisy in my church

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