Blameless

pinetree · Aug 11, 2008

dkbwarrior said:
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Well, we definately agree here!

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That is like saying, If it were totally and utterly contrary to God's will that any should perish, then he'd (sic) make sure we didn't. But what of this:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
-2 Peter 3:9

So if it is against Gods will that any should perish yet untold millions will, then how is it consistent to say that if God wills for all to be healed, then we will all be healed?

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No, lack of faith doesn't kill people. The devil kills people. Faith provides and avenue for healing, but lack of it doesn't kill. Only the devil kills.

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That is comparing apples and oranges. The gifts of the Spirit do no not operate by the faith of the one receiving, but by the will of the Spirit.

The alternative is to believe His promise, and stand on it through the trials and temptations that will come to try to get you to deny His promise until it manifests itself in your life. Even if it never does.

Peace...

when a saint dies of a disease, do you think the devil killed him?

Psalm 139:16
your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

pinetree · Aug 11, 2008

Strong in Him said:
Doesn't it give you pause that there are many examples in Scripture of people being given promises yet having to wait for the fulfilment of those promises? See Hebrews 11, and the fact that the prophets prophesied the Messiah's coming yet never lived to see it.
Doesn't it give you pause that many sick Christians have prayed for physical healing, been to healing services, asked for prayer, been anointed etc etc but still died without receiving the healing they prayed for?

Not everyone who prays for physical healing receives it, this should be obvious. Some even die from their illnesses. The thing is that some people believe that God is indeed asking us to wait and bear this illness for the time being, for reasons best known to himself; others say "God would never do that, he never did in Jesus' time so he won't now. There must be some other reason". And this reason usually involves sin, a lack of faith, a lack of positive confession or whatever on the part of the sufferer. In their/your theology, God cannot be allowed to say "wait". They/you don't understand or see any reason for it. therefore it can't happen.

I'm not disputing Jesus healed then and can heal today. I've never disputed that and have rejoiced with those who have shared their healings on these pages. My only dispute has been with those who say that God always wants us in good health, will never delay or say "wait", will always answer our prayers immediately, and if he doesn't, it's because of something the sick person has or hasn't done. God is God; he has told me he will make me whole, and he will. He hasn't promised he will make me whole by a certain date, so I continue to wait and trust.

God shall make me whole - one day. God did not tell Paul that he wouldn't take away his thorn, and I never said that he did; he said "my grace is sufficient for you, my power is made perfect in weakness."

Not necessarily. I have heard from other Christians who say the same thing; that they are made to feel guilty because they haven't been healed. The phrase "you haven't been healed because you don't believe/have enough faith", is NOT faith building or uplifting. My heart sinks when I hear it. Yet I hear other aspects of the Good News and feel uplifted, blessed, encouraged, joyful. If I were to share these times, no doubt someone would say that the Spirit in me is witnessing to my heart that the message is correct. So why can't the Spirit be witnessing to me that such a message of lack of healing being linked to lack of faith is incorrect?

I never said he was orchestrating these evils to assault us, I sid that sometimes he allows them to happen. Maybe that's the same thing to you, but it's not to me.

I have said this before, but will do so again. To say that God sends suffering means, to me, that God deliberately plans to send someone pain, ill health and suffering as his plan for their life - that his highest blessing for someone is discomfort and agony. Not true. Scripture says that every good and perfect gift comes from God. Suffering is not good or perfect, therefore he doesn't send it. Suffering, sickness and death exist in our fallen world, they came in when sin came in. Does God allow them to continue? Clearly, because they do. God allows sin to continue and will do so up until Jesus comes again. God could wipe out all pain and sickness tomorrow if he wanted to. If he doesn't then it's for a reason. And I, for one, cannot believe that that reason is that he is powerless to do otherwise.

I have a date with a chocolate eclair I'll be back.

That was a very accurate,well balanced truthful,obvious post..

Ecclesiastes 3:1
[ A Time for Everything ] There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:

pinetree · Aug 11, 2008

ANM29 said:
I appreciate your side and your argument. It boils down to you believing that God does not actually send us trials, and I believing he does.

I remember I use to blame everything on the devil, and a lot of what I had seen and still do see is and was from satan. But, one day I saw the hand of God in a whole new light when he sent something my way that I KNOW HE HIMSELF orchestrated. Here is the thing, the thing was not bad, but it was PAINFUL.
( Now, that may not make sense to some, but it is very possible ) It then depends on your personal perspective on God and life really.

Have you ever felt like God made you to believe a certain thing was happening or going to happen and then the rug gets pulled from under you? Of course, the first thing we will say is that satan did it. I think this is one of those things in which God is 'testing' us for a reason, and the purpose usually is great and you may not understand it until down the road or years later. I bet there are many people who can relate to this, it is what we usually would call a 'disappointment'. ( And in some cases satan did do it, but NOT IN ALL ) Now, somebody will say that is saying that God is a 'liar' or 'deciever', ..THen again, it will all go back to your perspective of God. God can't lie and does not lie, yet he will test us and even sometimes lead us into PITS himself. Being led or put into a pit is not necessarily evil, if God himself led you there. God led the children of Israel into the desert with the purpose of testing them, now this was a PIT..it was a place where they had to absolutely depend on God. God does that. We can learn a lot from the Children of Israel..lol!

( Had to Edit this post and add that..In some cases, the very thing you thought God had taken from you, he brings back later OR he gives you something BETTER...and to add he gives you wisdom that you just would not have gotten any other way and a closer walk with him...You can't beat that with a bat...... )

Now thats a true post..

If only some saints realized this verse below..

They would have better understanding of what God is doing in peoples lives..

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Should we really keep blaming the devil..??

dkbwarrior · Aug 11, 2008

pinetree said:
when a saint dies of a disease, do you think the devil killed him?

Psalm 139:16
your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Of course.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
-Hebrews 2:14

Peace...

JimfromOhio · Aug 12, 2008

dkbwarrior said:
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Well, we definately agree here!

[/color]

That is like saying, If it were totally and utterly contrary to God's will that any should perish, then he'd (sic) make sure we didn't. But what of this:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
-2 Peter 3:9

So if it is against Gods will that any should perish yet untold millions will, then how is it consistent to say that if God wills for all to be healed, then we will all be healed?

[/color]

No, lack of faith doesn't kill people. The devil kills people. Faith provides and avenue for healing, but lack of it doesn't kill. Only the devil kills.

[/color][/size]

That is comparing apples and oranges. The gifts of the Spirit do no not operate by the faith of the one receiving, but by the will of the Spirit.

The alternative is to believe His promise, and stand on it through the trials and temptations that will come to try to get you to deny His promise until it manifests itself in your life. Even if it never does.

Peace...

In some of your posts, God is good and Evil is bad. You could take the view that suffering and death don't really exist for Christians. God is good and, therefore, everything is good. There are those who teaches that "Jesus wants you rich, and Jesus wants you comfortable, and Jesus wants you successful, and if you suffer it is because you are weak in faith. If you suffer, it is because somehow youre not claiming what is rightfully yours."

Today, within Christianity, some denominations and movements are taking the view (outside orthodox Christianity) that is rising in popularity today that God has limited power over Satan and the sinful world.

Man-made doctrines have created this misconception that Christians should be above suffering is a sad dishonor to all those faithful and noble believers through the agesthrough the history of Gods kingdomwho have suffered, who have suffered severely including all of the great faiths in the Bible.

I createe this thread for the purpose to bring out the differences between the doctrines YOU and others believe in compare the doctrines I and others believe in. I even posted various links from various denominations relating Job's sufferings. Those who posted (i.e. you) have posted with reasonings and without good references to support your beliefs.

Most Christianit denominations believes that Satan only allowed to do that which God permits. He is the servant of God and the servant of Gods sovereign purposes. Everything occurs under the sovereign rule of God. Isaiah 45:7 says that, God is the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these things Suffering, trials,all kinds of adversity are under Gods sovereignty and fit His purpose, and especially His purpose for His own beloved children.

The heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 demonstrated extraordinary obedience in the face of severe trial and they demonstrated at the same time, unwavering trust in the purposes of God, unwavering confidence in the sovereignty of God. Gods purpose in suffering is the issue that must be understood: God has a purpose for our suffering.

I am thankful that this thread is showing what needed to be revealed.

ANM29 · Aug 12, 2008

There are those who teaches that "Jesus wants you rich, and Jesus wants you comfortable, and Jesus wants you successful, and if you suffer it is because you are weak in faith. If you suffer, it is because somehow you’re not claiming what is rightfully yours."

This is one of the saddest things to be taught. How does this play off with people who are born into poverty in third world countries? Do they take this message over there and condemn people with lack of faith because of their circumstances? Sad...

I have never heard of suffering being taught this way except by WOF. There is seriously a huge difference in how we view God.

dkbwarrior · Aug 12, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
In some of your posts, God is good and Evil is bad. You could take the view that suffering and death don't really exist for Christians. God is good and, therefore, everything is good. There are those who teaches that "Jesus wants you rich, and Jesus wants you comfortable, and Jesus wants you successful, and if you suffer it is because you are weak in faith. If you suffer, it is because somehow youre not claiming what is rightfully yours."

Well, here we go again. Pretty much all debates with you and certain others end up here, don't they?

Could you please show me one reference anywhere by any nationally known and recognized WOF minister that says that Christians will not suffer if they have enough faith. It has never been said by anyone that I have ever heard, and I have listend to tens of thousands of hours of WOF teaching, and read hundreds of books.

The fact that you have to misrepresent what we believe pretty much loses the argument for you, don't it? You obviously don't have an argument, or you could articulate it honestly.

I specifically said the following here:

And I agree that we will suffer trials and tribulations in this life, Jesus told us so. I also believe that God will use those things to teach us, and that He will turn them to our good if we allow Him to.

Here we go again:

ANM29 said:
I have never heard of suffering being taught this way except by WOF.

As I asked Jim, please source this. If it is the truth, then please show me a link, reference or source where some nationally known and respected WOF minister (not some crackpot that we have never heard of) has ever said that Christians will not suffer if they have enough faith.

We don't disagree on suffering happening. What we disagree on is the author of it. As I also said in this post:

Jesus in the parable of the sower said that satan comes immediately to steal the Word that is sown in our hearts, and that persecution and affliction arise for the words sake. The trial appeals to our lust and selfishness to try to pull us off of our confession and faith towards Gods promise to us.

But God does not send this test/trial or temptation.

ANM29 said:
There is seriously a huge difference in how we view God.

This I agree with. The issue of where the trial comes from has everything to do with the character and nature of God. Is God a giver, or a taker? A life giver, or a killer? A protector or a rapist?

The ansers to these questions are simple for me. God is good. The devil is bad. God is eternal, whereas the devil is a created being. God has inconceivably more power than the devil and man, but has given both freewill for a set period of time (per His spoken Word) for the devil and mankind to act any way they want limited only by the prescribed laws of creation.

God good, devil bad. Period.

Peace...

ANM29 · Aug 12, 2008

dkbwarrior said:
Well, here we go again. Pretty much all debates with you and certain others end up here, don't they?

Could you please show me one reference anywhere by any nationally known and recognized WOF minister that says that Christians will not suffer if they have enough faith. It has never been said by anyone that I have ever heard, and I have listend to tens of thousands of hours of WOF teaching, and read hundreds of books.

The fact that you have to misrepresent what we believe pretty much loses the argument for you, don't it? You obviously don't have an argument, or you could articulate it honestly.

I specifically said the following here:

Here we go again:

As I asked Jim, please source this. If it is the truth, then please show me a link, reference or source where some nationally known and respected WOF minister (not some crackpot that we have never heard of) has ever said that Christians will not suffer if they have enough faith.

We don't disagree on suffering happening. What we disagree on is the author of it. As I also said in this post:

This I agree with. The issue of where the trial comes from has everything to do with the character and nature of God. Is God a giver, or a taker? A life giver, or a killer? A protector or a rapist?

The ansers to these questions are simple for me. God is good. The devil is bad. God is eternal, whereas the devil is a created being. God has inconceivably more power than the devil and man, but has given both freewill for a set period of time (per His spoken Word) for the devil and mankind to act any way they want limited only by the prescribed laws of creation.

God good, devil bad. Period.

Peace...

He is both

The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord...and something being taken from us is not necessarily a bad thing, depends on your perspective and what has been taken away.

dkbwarrior · Aug 12, 2008

ANM29 said:
This is one of the saddest things to be taught. How does this play off with people who are born into poverty in third world countries? Do they take this message over there and condemn people with lack of faith because of their circumstances? Sad...

Ahhh....

But that is where WOF is growing the fastest, don't you know? Did you read the article last year in Christianity Today called, "Health And Wealth In Africa, How The Prosperity Gospel Is Taking A Continent By Storm"?

Pluralities in whole countries like Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, and South Africa have been converted in the past decade through WOF missionary outreaches and upwards of 70% of professing christians in those populations identify with renewalist, WOF, prosperity, 3rd wave (whatever you want to call it) beliefs.

Some mainline and evangelical misionaries are bitter because they spent their whole lives over their trying to establish a little town church, only to have the true gospel of God come in and establish megachurches all over the countries and convert huge masses of people in under a decade.

I had one person say to me on these very boards last year that they were thankful that christians were persecuted in some countries because the laws would therefore never allow WOF crusades there. How twisted does some peoples thinking get?

It is amazing how the goodness of God leads to repentance, in spite of the rantings of those who try to paint God and the devil as some kind of co-partners in the temptation and abuse of mankind.

Peace...

dkbwarrior · Aug 12, 2008

ANM29 said:
He is both The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord...and something being taken from us is not necessarily a bad thing, depends on your perspective and what has been taken away.

I suppose it depends on who you want to believe then, doesn't it? I would rather believe what Jesus said, rather than what Job said:

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
-John 10:10

Jesus was the image and likeness of God. Job was a sinful man like the rest of us.

Peace...

ANM29 · Aug 12, 2008

dkbwarrior said:
Ahhh....

But that is where WOF is growing the fastest, don't you know? Did you read the article last year in Christianity Today called, "Health And Wealth In Africa, How The Prosperity Gospel Is Taking A Continent By Storm"?

Pluralities in whole countries like Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, and South Africa have been converted in the past decade through WOF missionary outreaches and upwards of 70% of professing christians in those populations identify with renewalist, WOF, prosperity, 3rd wave (whatever you want to call it) beliefs.

Some mainline and evangelical misionaries are bitter because they spent their whole lives over their trying to establish a little town church, only to have the true gospel of God come in and establish megachurches all over the countries and convert huge masses of people in under a decade.

I had one person say to me on these very boards last year that they were thankful that christians were persecuted in some countries because the laws would therefore never allow WOF crusades there. How twisted does some peoples thinking get?

It is amazing how the goodness of God leads to repentance, in spite of the rantings of those who try to paint God and the devil as some kind of co-partners in the temptation and abuse of mankind.

Peace...

Actually, I am aware that WOF is third world countries, what I am not aware of is if the message of condemnation because of circumstances is being preached. I personally listen to some WOF minsiters myself, but I don't glory in any doctrines, doniminations or even movements.

I don't believe any one 'movement' is responsible for all of anything, it is God that gets the credit. From what I see and have seen and many agree, that the Church is still naked and blind around the world. Yes, WOF does great things, but I don't see them as any better than any other movement that has come on the scene at some point. God uses ALL things to work together for good, even when it all is not totally correct.

Thank God we are moving into a spiritual shift where the Kingdom of God is what will be the spotlight, that is what all this about anyway. Not how many cars and houes you have to boast about. It is about giving some of that STUFF AWAY and becoming prosperous to promote the Kingdom of God...I can't wait to hear more of that preached...whew!......A serious shift is here already....Enough of man and religion......

So, I do listen to a few WOF ministers and have for years off and on. I just don't follow any particular movement or denominations or doctrines, only the leading of the Holy Spirit. And if this is WOF view on suffering and that people are in those circumstances cos they did not quote enough scriptures or have enough faith, I pray God turns it around for the good....and he will.

ANM29 · Aug 12, 2008

dkbwarrior said:
I suppose it depends on who you want to believe then, doesn't it? I would rather believe what Jesus said, rather than what Job said:

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
-John 10:10

Jesus was the image and likeness of God. Job was a sinful man like the rest of us.

Peace...

Perspective is everything. I believe Job and Jesus.........

pinetree · Aug 12, 2008

dkbwarrior said:
Of course.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
-Hebrews 2:14

Peace...

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Who is really in charge?

Trish1947 · Aug 12, 2008

pinetree said:
Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Who is really in charge?

Now? Jesus Christ is, God made Jesus Lord, wheather we believe in Him or not...back in Jobs days...um...the devil was, Yes? But less face it. People are taken captive at Satan will everyday, not Gods will. No permission needed. So those outside of Christ are still at jeopardy. Unless you believe in universal salvation?

JimfromOhio · Aug 12, 2008

Trish1947 said:
Now? Jesus Christ is, God made Jesus Lord of all...back in Jobs days...um...the devil was, Yes? But less face it. People are taken captive at Satan will everyday, not Gods will. No permission needed. So those outside of Christ are still at jeopardy. Unless you believe in universal salvation.

So, Satan can kill me today without God's permission?

JimfromOhio · Aug 12, 2008

Psalm 68:20
Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death.

Psalm 141:8
But my eyes are fixed on you, O Sovereign LORD; in you I take refuge—do not give me over to death.

Jeremiah 21:8
"Furthermore, tell the people, 'This is what the LORD says: See, I am setting before you the way of life and the way of death.

Before Christ's death, trying to understand what Jesus said to the Pilate during His trial in John 19:11 "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." Which means God have complete control over life and death.

Jesus said clearly about a penny's worth of sparrows compare to us. Matthew 10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. If God can control with those two sparrows, then He will do the same for His creatures around the world including Satan.

dkbwarrior · Aug 12, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
So, Satan can kill me today without God's permission?

He already has Gods permission, that is the point. That permission has been in effect per Gods command to Adam:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
-Genesis 3:3

There are other restrictions on him however, otherwise he would have just wiped us all out. These restrictions are too numerous to list, but all of them come under the heading of the Law Of Sin And Death.

But if he finds you in a position where the law of sin and death allow him access to you then be assured, he will kill you.

8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
-1 Peter 5:8-9

Unless of course, you have believed God and stand on His promises of strength for the mortal body, long life and health for all your flesh. Then you resist him steadfast in faith, and glory in your tribulations knowing that God will bring you out the other side so that you can say with Peter in the next verse:

10But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
-1 Peter 5:10

Peace...

Trish1947 · Aug 12, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
So, Satan can kill me today without God's permission?

I never said that..I am assuming that your not outside of Jesus Christ and His will for your life consisting of your spirit, soul and body. Satan still goes around roaming the earth seeking who he may devour. You not letting him have access to any of those area's I would hope through the promises of God. My point was Satan already had permission since the fall.

dkbwarrior · Aug 12, 2008

Trish1947 said:
Now? Jesus Christ is, God made Jesus Lord, wheather we believe in Him or not...back in Jobs days...um...the devil was, Yes? But less face it. People are taken captive at Satan will everyday, not Gods will. No permission needed. So those outside of Christ are still at jeopardy. Unless you believe in universal salvation?

I agree with you, however, note that Paul still called satan the god of this world long after the crucifixion, ressurection, and ascension of our Lord.

Though Jesus defeated him fully, He left him in power, and gave us command of the occupying forces, the church, His body on earth. Jesus is only in control of what we the church put Him in control of on this earth until His return, the rest of this planet is still under the power of the devil.

He takes poeple captive at will, within the bounds of the Law of Sin and Death, unless we stop him by faith.

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
-2 Timothy 2:26

Peace...

JimfromOhio · Aug 12, 2008

dkbwarrior said:
He already has Gods permission, that is the point. That permission has been in effect per Gods command to Adam:

There are other restrictions on him however, otherwise he would have just wiped us all out. These restrictions are too numerous to list, but all of them come under the heading of the Law Of Sin And Death.

But if he finds you in a position where the law of sin and death allow him access to you then be assured, he will kill you.

Unless of course, you have believed God and stand on His promises of strength for the mortal body, long life and health for all your flesh. Then you resist him steadfast in faith, and glory in your tribulations knowing that God will bring you out the other side so that you can say with Peter in the next verse:

Peace...

One of the main points of this thread is to show that Satan is bound to have God's permission as we saw in the Book of Job.

Now, if Satan has blanket permission and God didn't control His prophesies, what would happen to the Second Coming?

Blameless

Was Job Blameless? (notice: Public vote)

Job was NOT blameless therefore, he suffered

Job was blameless even though God gave Satan permission to test him.

I don't know about Job

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